Pro's only please

[tekm0nsta]

I was wondering how long it took you to be good enough to go pro or at least a church band or something, and what would say a week practice schedule look like.

Thanx

[tekm0nsta]

Wow 95 looks and no replies, not very encouraging.

[sax rookie]

I am not a pro in any way. Heck, I barely qualify as a weekend warrior. But I might be able to answer your questions.

IMHO, anyone who works in the arts is constantly working on thier craft, Be it a painter, actor or musician. There are no absolutes in where you are in perfecting yourself as a player. Depending on a persons view of their capabilities, some players would tell you that they are never ready to be a "pro". Literally, you are a pro the moment that someone pays you to play. But if your chops are not up to speed, it's unlikely that you will ever get a gig.
A church band is a different situation. Many amateurs cut thier teeth playing in a worship band. Its a good middle step between a beginner/student plyer and a "pro" Most are not paid players and it's done out of a love of of playing and for God.
A practice schedule shoud be tailored by a teacher. If you are in school you should already have some kind of structured practice schedule. If you are out of school, get a private teacher. A teacher in both cases can evaluate your level of playing a recommend a proper practice routine. Thier are also thousands of books availavble online and at your local music store that can help you along the way.
Use the search funtion of this forum and type in a few keywords. You will be amazed by the volumes of info that is available to you if you just use it.
I sincerely doubt that people who read your post are ignoring your quest for information. It just that your post is difficult answer properly without more information about you, your abilities and some indication that you have done some homework of your own first.

Hope this helps.

[Gandalfe]

Two things that kept me from posting:

1. There are way too many people asking how to do things without doing the homework first. I wanna do this, I wanna do that, tell me how. Do some reading and work it a little bit before you ask for the answers to the universe. There is no satisfaction crafting an answer for the many people who will not even take the first step.

2. We don't know anything about you. Earlier in Nov or early Dec a really articulate writer asked some of the questions you did, BUT he told us about his experience so far, his sax, and his interests. (You did read that didn't you?) Boy did he get a lot of positive feedback.

[Gandalfe]

Oh, and the interesting player asking for help was named HarpinBlue.

[LBAjazz]

I have read that both Sonny Rollins and Ben Webster were gigging within 2 years but Ben was already a piano player.

[retread]

There's a huge difference between playing professionally and playing in a church (or community) band. I say this as a member of two community bands, which I thoroughly enjoy playing in.

[tekm0nsta]

This is to Gandalfe,

I didn't tell you anything about myself or whether I myself am looking to go pro or not because this thread isn't about me, I simply wanted to know if any of you were pro and what kind of dedication it took to get there.

[Paul Coats]

Not counting bad rehearsals, I practiced about 3 hours a day in high school. I played my first pro gig, as a band leader (jazz combo--tenor, guitar, drums, string bass) at age of 15. I started on clarinet at age 10, and did not really practice much until switching to sax a age 13.

[GZsound]

I started playing in grade school at age 11. At 14 I was in a band playing for school dances, community center dances and local recreation centers for money. At 16 I was in the opening act for Sony & Cher, The Dave Clark Five, Them, The Rascals, etc. and spent the summer touring with Gary Lewis And The Playboys. We played at concerts of up to 8,000 folks.

There is no set time to be professional, there is no set amount of practice you need. Everything is based on what you can do, how you can play, what breaks you get and what decisions you make in your music. Some folks practice all their lives and will never be "professional". Others can make a one note lead a work of art and get paid for it.

[Morry]

Mark is right. It is too individualized to make a blanket statement of some type. I've been playing 30 years. I've been paid to play, but I'm certainly no "pro". I don't have the time or the discipline to put in those kind of hours. Even if I did, I don't have the natural talent that I think a real "pro" needs. I'm a good technical player, but if I quit my job and practiced full time, I'd still never be ready. Work hard, do the best you can, and enjoy playing for its own sake.

[Tharruff]

I played for 26 years in a Big Band in Dayton, Ohio playing most every weekend, mostly playing the second books. (either Alto or Tenor depending on which part was needed) I traveled as far as Dallas, Texas for a gig once. I made enough money during those years to pay for my main horns (a Mark VI and a Balanced Action) many times over, plus have them repaired as needed, plus buy lots of other vintage horns along the way.

The first time I ever played out anywhere was in a bar with a small band at a golf course when I was 17.

I started playing the Clarinet at age 10...Sax at 15.

I'm not a pro and I never will be.

Since moving to a completely different area about a year ago I have not yet found any band to play with and I have hardly played at all. This is the longest break from music I have had since I was a kid.

FWIW............

[Frank D]

Mark hit it on the head: it all comes down to ability and opportunity. I started on clarinet in 5th grade, picked up alto in 7th, and during my freshman year the guy next door (college age) asked my mom if I could play gigs with his wedding band since they were losing their sax player. That was one of the busiest times of my life, working 2-3 gigs/week during busy seasons.

Like Tharfuff, I've found that location has a lot to do with it as well. I've lived in several different areas over the course of my life, and have alternated being a busy musician with not being able to get a gig. I too am not a pro, in the sense that I don't make my living playing music.

Bottom line; if you enjoy playing, practice like mad and play every opportunity you get. Network like crazy with other musicians, and if you're lucky you'll stay busy.

[mark_m]

(OT) Mark I saw Gary Lewis and the Playboys somewhere in western Pennsylvania aroun 1970 or so - I might have seen you play! But I don't remember much about it...:)

[Dr G]

Ability, opportunity... and expectations and genre.

Sure, there are guys out there making a living at playing in a blues band - some of them are very talented. There are quite a number of folks that may make it in that environment but I wouldn't compare them to others playing in a more heavily structured environment - classical or jazz. Those take even more time because you not only need time on the horn but time spent listening and learning. A solid understanding of music theory will help keep you progressing for life.

I know some people that practice 4-6 hours a day... and I regret to say that I don't think they will ever have sufficient popular demand to make a living from their efforts. But they play for the love of the horn and the experience of what it brings to their lives to make music.

So back to you, Tek. What do you consider pro? What level of mastery is "sufficient"? 8)

[GZsound]

(OT) Mark I saw Gary Lewis and the Playboys somewhere in western Pennsylvania aroun 1970 or so - I might have seen you play! But I don't remember much about it...:)

We played the West Coast. Washington State, Oregon, etc. Never made it to Pennsylvania. And don't feel bad about your memory loss. Like they say, if you can remember the 60's you weren't there. We toured and opened for Gary Lewis during the summer of 1966. In 1970 I was playing in a band on an ammunition ship off the coast of Vietnam.

As far as what it takes to make a "Pro" player. Simple answer....money.

Give a kid ten bucks to play Jingle Bells on his horn and you have created a pro player. I used to play with my dad at grange halls for five bucks and all the spaghetti you could eat. I was 13. Pro? You bet..!!

We have blues bands playing nearly every night of the week at various clubs around here. They might make a couple grand a month. I consider them very professional players. One of my bands plays for the elderly at retirement homes for maybe fifty bucks apeice..professional? You bet.
My show band gets at least $2,000 a gig. Professional? You bet..

Now ask me if I'm any good... different story entirely. Do I consider myself in the same category as "Professional" players..no way.

It is all just subjective.

[jazzbluescat]

I hear ya. When I think of "pro" I think of quality rather than money, eventhough money is what technically qualifies you as a pro. But, since there are so many people that are making money by the truckloads that can't really play/blow their nose, I tend to go with the quality definition; which is pretty subjective(also).

It's all in the journey.

[gary]

Well, I think the question is referring to just how much practicing, playing, etc. one must do to be a "professional" but I think some of the above comments raise another aspect: street smarts.

If being a professional is one who makes a reasonable income at it, then I've got to say that technique and artistic level are only some of the aspects. There are things about surviving as a musician that many of these "lesser" full-time players know that some of the practice-room artists might never know about, and which are necessary to being a successful full-timer.

I got into an argument once with a colleague who I thought was pretty mediocre and he got pi**ed and said, "Hey man. It's not what you know. It's how you use what you know." While I was the artist, this guy got at least twice as many gigs as I.

So, knowing what one must to reach professional (ie full-time) status is a combination of chops and knowing HOW to use what you know...or don't know. If reaching professional status is defined by the artistic and technical quality of a person's performance, full- or part- time, notwithstanding, then, tekm0nsta, my answer would be...how much time in any given day do you have to practice? Well...it's not enough.

But the original question has a built-in comment that, IMO, negates the first part of the question. That is "...at least a church band or something,...". tekm0nsta - being a "professional" and playing in church are not necessarily anywhere on the same level, so what do you really mean?

The Greg Vail's of the world notwithstanding, it doesn't take any particularly high level of competence to play in your average home parish. So if your question is what do you have to do to prepare to do that, I would say practice as much as you can and play with anybody, anyplace you can. If you want to become a full-time, artisticly and technically competent profession the answer's the same. Just triple the level of committment.

tekm0nsta, most of the successful full-time pros I know personally, or by reputation, practiced early in their musical lives, no less that four hours a day for about four years and then somewhat relegiously, thereafter. This does not include playing more hours in bands or jam sessions and other related activities like transcribing solos and copying them, verbatim.

[wrb]

FWIW, I started playing when I was about 11 or 12 years old. I probably practiced 4-5 hours per day, not counting band class. I loved it! When my parents bought my first horn, not knowing much about it, but fooling around and listening for the sounds, I was able to pick out a little of the Theme from Peter Gunn! Not good, but recognizable. I started playing for money when I was about 15. The rest of the band members were older and had to sneak me in the back door of the bars we played at! I played in bands during college, and played and traveled for about 10 more years after I got out of college. Family responsibilties, a change in lifestyle (needed to get away from the drugs and alcohol) and the need for more money, made me quit playing for awhile. This was what was right for me. I still love to play, practice every time I can. I currently play in a church band made up of people who all use to make a living playing, but decided to take another path. These guys are as good as, or better than, most of the people I played with when that was my job! I believe a player is a player whether or not he/she does it for money. It's all about skills. I've had a couple of small strokes, and some things are not with me anymore (like a good memory!), but I can still play nearly as well as I could when I was younger. Any thing you do should be wholehearted, to the best of your ability, always striving to improve. I feel that is what a professional is! Thanks for reading an old man's meandering post!

wrb

[tekm0nsta]

Hey, thanx for all the replies guys I really appreciate it. I personally don't have the desire to be a full-blown pro but I absolutely love everything about the sax and plan on playing the rest of my life for a hobbie, I may eventually join a church band or something but nothing major.

Thx Zac

[Troy]

I would just add one thing. If you choose to play in church, don't treat it as a lesser gig. Hold yourself to the same high standards. Practice plenty. Do your personal best. Too many people out there only giving half an effort to God.

[michaelbaird]

If a pro is someone who makes a living playing music, then I'm not one. I couldn't afford it. If being good is what you consider a pro, then I would practice the right things endlessly. I would practice until I could turn my thoughts into the sounds I want to produce. I plan to be so good that it just doesn't matter. There are alot of really great players in Nashville, but I'm good also and have been asked who I was, where I came from or who I've played with many times, by various pros in town. I have gotten good because I have practiced, listened, and also embarrassed myself enough times that I'm just not scared anymore or intimidated. I will get on stage with anyone if I'm invited and am always cocked, loaded and ready to fire. When people find out that I'm also an ICU nurse, they seem to respect me more. But that doesn't matter, I'm the one who has to live with myself. You will know when you are ready, and nothing will hold you back. We all mature at different rates. To quote Rock Williams www.rockwilliams.com "Practice, Pray, and Play." Michael Brecker is technically incredible because he has practiced endlessly and it is obvious in his playing.

[sattva]

I personally know very good players who are not pros, but are certainly good enough. I have known pros, who are not very good players, who have placed so much importance on getting paid gigs that they have forgotten how to practice and have not improved in years because they have "made it". They can tend to think:

"I must be good - I am being paid to play!"

Music is first and foremost an art form and therefore available to everyone to play and participate in. Usually you have to compromise what you are playing to gain regular financial reward. Think carefully before setting your target to be a "pro". You may end up forgetting what originally motivated you to play.

Of course, there are exceptions to every rule, and I apologize to all the pros who read this and take offence - I do not include all pros in this observation. :|