Kohlert High and Low Pitch

[Peterogping]

I have borrowed a copy of the saxophone related pages of a Kohlert Söhne catalogue from 1939. It is stated that their saxophones are produced in normal and in "English" pitch.
Elsewhere, the pitches in use at the time are described as:
Tiefe Normalstimmung (870 Schwingungen).
Amerikanische Normalstimmung (880...), die jetzige usuelle tiefe Stimmung.
Englische Stimmung (902 ...).
Höhe Österreichische Stimmung (921...).

Translated to contemporary English:
Low normal pitch 435 Hz
American normal pitch 440 Hz, the presently used low pitch.
English pitch 451 Hz
High Austrian pitch 460,5 Hz.

So, in summary, in 1939 Kohlert still produced low (440) and high (451) pitch saxophones.

Has anybody ever encountered a Kohlert in high pitch ?

[tonfisch]

I never heard of high pitched Kohlerts,not even as a rumor.

[sax-ony]

No, but I see no reason to doubt that they were produced. G.H.Hüller of Marckneukirchen were certainly producing saxophones pitched at both American pitch (A=440) and "Diapason Normale" (A=435) in the late 1930s. My Hüller alto is stamped 870 on the side of the socket, while my tenor is stamped 880. Both have microtuners, and the difference in pitch is unnoticeable in practice. In fact I was amazed that a manufacturer would make such a slight distinction, so it is very interesting to learn than Kohlert were apparently doing the same. But I have not yet actually encountered any German or Czech horn in high pitch (thankfully!).

[milandro]

...... But I have not yet actually encountered any German or Czech horn in high pitch (thankfully!).

I have just encountered a Czech Amati Toneking in High pitch .....:(...I'm gonna send it back ....but it has a small and almost invisible H on top of the serial number , it is almost mint and as usual (this is the 3rd HP horn I stumble upon) the previous owner and alto player claims that she has played the horn 3 times in a big band without noting any pitch problems. I Would think this is impossible unless she couldn't hear herself and never even heard she was off by quite a bit

[sax-ony]

That is rotten luck. I would never have expected it on a Toneking. What is the serial number, please? Just wondering if it's in the Keilwerth sequence (2xxxx) or the Amati one (six digits). Matt Stohrer has taken some useful measurements of a Toneking alto with an Amati serial number that he got from me (no "H" above the number, I'm glad to say!) and it turns out to be significantly different from the Keilwerth ones - although it looks the same. See

http://www.stohrerwoodwinds.com/html/notepad.php?pad=15

(the final update, at the bottom).

[milandro]

Sorry, too late, I've brought it back and didn't think of writing down the serial number.
it had a minute H above the serial number a " best in the world" mark under the serial number and made in Made in Czechoslovakia stamp. I didn't measure it (measuring a bari is slightly less straightforward ....pun not intended....than another horn) but I immediately had the feeling that it was too small because of the neck being pointing up and not being straight like all the other baris that I've played (not so many but enough to have an idea). It played the most in tune at 457 Hz , in fact was very much in tune.....just not in the usual frequency! The reason I wanted to report it is exactly to warn others from this problem. Fortunately I've bought this locally and I could drive 150 Km to bring it back, gas money has been money spent to learn yet another lesson. When I picked it up yesterday I couldn't try it and I should have done (if it was a Dolnet I would have done that! :twisted: ) .