Alto players - £ which one on ebay?

[saxbeginner]

Thanks for all the help i've already been given!

I've decided to start learning on the alto, am now stuck between 3 instruments on ebay. Please, if anyone's got the time, can you have a look at these 3 alto's for me?

2577598511 (Jupiter 767 like new)

2578641134 YAS 62

2577746304 YAS 23


I'm an adult learner, looking for decent model to learn on, don't have lots of money! BIG THANKS - AGAIN! :)

[allansells]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 62 is a professional horn, i.e. has a better sound, and if the price/condition is the same for all three horns, I'd go with the 62.

[goodsax]

The 62 is the only sax the seller has up for auction. Everything else consists of Pokemon cards and cell phone cases. It's possible he doesn't know the real value of the 62, but then again there are still four days left for the bids to climb even though it's only at GBP 51 now. Also, the seller is shy about sharing photos of the sax. I'd send him an email asking to see more photos. As stated by alansells, the 62 is the only choice to make of these three, all other things being equal. I'll be surprised if the price doesn't climb near the end of the auction to something closer to the real value of this professional level instrument.

The 23 also is being sold by a non-music dealer who sells mostly women's shoes. However, the sax appears to be in good condition as much as one can tell with only one photo. To get a clear perception of its overall condition, I'd ask the seller for more photos - same goes for all three of these horns. With four days to go, this sax already is double the bid on the 62 at GBP 103. That leaves a long time for it to climb.

The Jupiter 767 is a big question mark to me because I've not heard much about Jupiters other than the latest Artist series for which there is a lot of good things being said. The 767 is a step down from the 869SG alto, the Jupiter silver-plated Artist with the solid silver neck. I have a Jupiter Artist 889SG tenor silver-plated, etc., and it's a surprisingly high quality horn that plays outstandingly well and with great ease top to bottom. Now that's real value for your money. However, I can't say the same about the 767 because I have no experience with that model.

A final thought: Don't limit yourself necessarily to just these three; there's always another just around the corner with your name on it. Stay alert for that one as you monitor the bids on these. If you're dead set on one of these three, I'd go for the 62 if possible.

8)

[saxbeginner]

thanks soooo much!

I emailed the "62" seller twice, but have heard nothing!!!
(maybe he doesn't want to sell it to me as I've only just joined)

The 23 seller emailed me straight back and said that he bought it from a music shop 3 yrs ago, doesn't know if the mpc has been changed, said that there has been a lot of patination lost which makes it look scruffy, but said the sound is totally unaffected. (which I gather is normal anyway isn't it)

see what you mean about the jupiter! I was looking mainly becuase it was almost perfect con, comes with yam mouthpiece, and stand... think I'll leave it though.
I rang up the pro sax player who sells the Fremont range through his shop in UK. He said he is the sole importer, made in Japan and Taiwan, visits their factory and inspects, and reckons they are far superior to Jupiter range. He even told me that an established pro player Dean Elson, who has played with lot of big names, bought one (a mirage alto) and is so impressed he has featured it on his website:
deanothersaxman.freeservers.com
I'm just going to check it out now....
I'll watch the bidding on those too.

[saxbeginner]

Sorry, the website is www.deanothersaxman.freeserves.com, he shows photos of the fremont, and i've emailed him asking what it's been like.

he plays it alongside keilwerth sx90R and selmer VI 1957.

will await his reply.

[saxbeginner]

:oops:

Gosh, how hard can a web address be? How embarrassing! :oops:

Its
www.DeanoTheSaxman.freeservers.com

[goodsax]

I'm very leery, saxbeginner, of any seller who brings out the old cliche, "It compares favorably to a MK VI.," (or substitute Keilwerth, Yani, etc.) when describing his Taiwanese brand of sax. It's just so trite and usually far from reality. Possibly, when brand sparkly shiny impressively new the horn, after a reluctant technician, if they're a real pro, sets one up, may sound fairly decent to the unwary player. But, how long will that last? How well will the instrument hold up over the long haul before keys get bent, key heights change, leaks begin, screws fall out and pads begin to stick. How long?

How many people on this forum will be able to respond favorably to a query about whether a Fremont is a durable, quality horn that compares in sound and overall performance to a Selmer, Yani, JK, or Yamaha? Zero, unless the seller participates here.

My best advice to you, unless you just want to take a huge risk and experiement with your sax investment money, is to stick with well-known marks like the Yamaha, or even the Jupiter Artist (but only the Artist IMO) series because of the growing number of SOTW participants who have played them and agree they are a good value. Yamaha YAS-23's and their replacement model - was it the 275, or something like that? - are solidly built to last and regarded by many experienced saxophonists as good players with a good sound and excellent intonation, an important playing characteristic many more cheaply built horns don't provide.

I'm ranting about this because I got sucked into the hype and by the prettiness (yeah, pretty) of Monique Pro Series saxophones earlier this year. I bought a very pretty (I don't know how else to put it.) silver plated alto Monique "Pro" sax. It gleamed with bright new shiny plasting when I first opened the case and I was so pleased. But, when I picked it up I knew something wasn't exactly right because it didn't have the heft of a couple of vintage horns and a Selmer AS100 I had played earlier. It felt lighter and thinner - which it most likely was. I sounded pretty decent on it with the stock mpc, and I tried a few other mpc/reed combo's that actually improved the sound. But, that was before I bought a tuner and monitored the intonation. Not great, to be kind. The saving grace is that it only cost $398 brand new on eBay and I managed to sell it for close to that soon after my disappointing discoveries. Why am I sharing this with you? I have a sneaky suspicion the Fremont could be in the same category and thought you might benefit from my close encounter with a cheap horn.

Caveat emptor...

8)

[saxbeginner]

thanks for caring enough about my pocket (ie £ or $!) to tell me all that.

Yeh, you're probably right! (only probably, I hear you ask!!)
:cry:
As I've only got £200-£250 to spend, I think I'll watch the Yamaha 23 although I read Merlin saying something about their octave key being on the opposite side to their other models...still, if it's cheap enough and it's recently been overhauled, new pads etc. I can live with that.

And I really do appreciate all the help you've given me. You're a star! (as we say here!)

[saxbeginner]

there's also a selmer bundy II going on eBay - 2577959744

There's hardly any details on it and i've emailed the seller to find out more.

the starting bid is set for £225 approx. but so far NO bids, with under 2 days to go.
what do you think????

[DaveKessler]

If the choice is between a Bundy II and a YAS23, go with the Yamaha.

The Bundy II saxes finally became so bad that Selmer had to stop using the name.

[DougR]

Try this
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2578283152&category=16 232
Looks like a Conn chu period stencil to me.

Now for the E-Bay Health Warning,
It is really easy to burn through another £250 on setup and servicing,
and if you really are a raw beginner, it is really difficult to tell a good horn with a small leak from a bad horn.

[saxbeginner]

THanks!

So, what is a Conn Chu period stencil - stencil as in a copy?
Or is it good?!!

there's not long left to go on it either, only 17 hrs...

the reserve price is £250, it's only £140 odd at the mo so don't know if she'd sell it or not.

It says it needs some new pads - roughly how much is that?
Also says there's an odd new pad on it - I checked her previous purchases and she bought a load of new sax pads!!!
So what do you think?? Is this a great sax, or will it cost me loads to get it playable?

Yours gratefully! :wink:
PS, I am TOTAL beginner at sax, have only had a go on my friends tenor...though I do know when my flute's pads are leaking! That's a start!

[saxbeginner]

Something else to spend money on! But what does it mean? I've heard that word thrown around on here lots, but seeing as flutes never need to be 'setup' (well, as far as I know..!!) I have no idea what everyone's referring to.

??? :?

[saxbeginner]

Here's also a King Cleveland 613, the owner told me that it would need some pad and neck cork work done. is this expensive??



http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2578283152

[DaveKessler]

I also have a 1970's Buescher 400 Alto (by Selmer) that plays very good at $500.

[DougR]

Stencil: This is an instrument made by one of the major manufacturers (such as Conn, Buescher) and badged with the customers name.

This practice has been going on for at least 100 years, and continuse to this day.
For instance, the Trevor James saxes are made in Taiwan (I think), the Vito saxes sold in the USA have been made by Yamaha, Yanagisawa and some others.

Chu Berry was a tenor player from the Twenties and Thirties who played a Conn. Horns from the same period as his have aquired the "CHU" monniker -it was never a designation used by C.G. Conn. The give-aways for a conn of this period are; The cross-hatched (fingernail file) G# touch, and the "split Bell Keys" where the two lowes pads are on opposite sides of the bell, and the "mercedes" key guards

It is worth looking at Saxpics weib site for more info
http://www.saxpics.com/conn/new_wonder2.htm
http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/conn/new_wonder2/alto/silverngold/188xxx_vs/c.jpg
http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/conn/new_wonder2/alto/silverngold/188xxx_vs/a.jpg

http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/conn/new_wonder2/alto/lacquer/221xxx_cs/221kConnAlto(RP)_comp(sml).jpg

[saxbeginner]

thanks doug,
so you think it's a good deal??

are they more expensive to get repaired, do they have to have special pads etc? or do techs charge more cos it's a vintage??

Second question - what's this about 'setup'? (see my previous message)

i am in your debt...

[DougR]

are they more expensive to get repaired, do they have to have special pads etc? or do techs charge more cos it's a vintage??

Some (notable Bueschers) require special pads- but these are available, the real cost is the the technicians time, I would estimate £30 per hour but it could be more or less.
This is not more than for working on a modern sax.
but seeing as flutes never need to be 'setup' (well, as far as I know..!!)

Wrong, very wrong, but coming from the owner of a yamaha flute, understandable.
Yamaha have for the past 30 years (At least) built some of the most reliable flutes ever. These typically last 10 years before the owner notices any degradation in performance, These often outlast 3 students without any servicing at all.

Saxophones are heavy, fragile and have a complex and delicate mechanism.
The complex mechanics are controlled by bits of cork and felt, and by bending bits of the keywork. It folows that the damned things can go seriously out of kilter very, very easily. the set-up process referred to is that where the technician adjusts cork/felt, reseats or replaces pads and bends bits of metal to get the thing to work properly.

As you might expect the cost of these running repairs is variable, you can get lucky and the previously unplayable horn is fixed for less than £10 - or you can be unlucky and win a bill for £180.

The two companies with the best reputation for "Plays-Straight-Out-Of-The-Box" are yamaha and yanagisawa.
Which is why the stock answer to "Which is the best student sax?" is "The current production Yamaha student.", YAS 275 before that the YAS25, before that the YAS23, and before that the YAS21.

The above explains why there is no simple answer to the "so you think it's a good deal??".

It all depends.
Are you willing to loose the money?
Have you ever held/played a sax of this make and vintage?
How did you get on with the left hand spatulas (spatulae??)?.
Did you like the sound?
Can you live with the image? - or does owning an old horn make you look like "THE EXPERT" - and can you live up to that?
All in all, I could not advise anyone just starting out, and on a budget, to get involved with Ebay either for new or for vintage.

As a parting shot here are some ideas.
1. Have you a copy of Larry Teal's book "The Art of Saxophone Playing".
If not suggest this as a christmas pressie -and its easy to wrap.

2. Do you already know your teacher??? some have strong views on saxophone make and others don't care.

3. Do you own a mouthpiece yet? if not, then a yamaha 4C(Alto) is a reasonable starting point.

4. Paul Coats mpc exercise will give you a decent start.

5. Visit shops and try everything you can lay your hands on. I passed a small shop down a back lane in Carmarthen which hade a Buescher 400 alto and a yanagisawa Sop in the window. Learn what a good one feels like.

6. Work on the flute, any practice is grist to the mill.

[saxbeginner]

lots to think about, thanks once again.

I didn't realise that setup referred to adjustments etc that need to be made to get it back into working order...of course flutes need that too!! Not so often probably, but leaking pads are probably people's main problem. I've been lucky with my Yamaha, have had it since I was about 15 (am now 31!!), and it looks almost like new! (well, not really lucky, have 'lucked' after it!! Pardon the pun.)

werkinsnake is selling a book about how to find good saxaphone deals etc which will be really helpful for future purchases.
With regards to have I played a sax of this make/vintage, and the left hand spatulae, I haven't even got a sax yet..I wouldn't dare to go into a shop and ask to have a go on their vintage! I think they'd ban me from their shop (I can only get a few high notes and B - G successfully on my friend's tenor!!!)

Where do I find Paul Cotes exercise?

Glad that you think me practising the flute is good practise for the sax...I take by that you mean by strengthening embouchure.

Anyway, you've all given me such a good start to the world of sax buying and playing, I can only say I am sooo grateful and will let you know how I get on! Cheers!

[DougR]

http://www.saxontheweb.net then scroll down to Paul R. Coats and read the various articles - all good stuff.
or http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/tone_production.html

You really should read this...
http://www.saxophone.org/buyersguide/buyers.html