How are Series III as opposed to the Mark VIs?

[Saxplayer_70]

How are the new Selmer horns? My lesson teacher says that he doesn't like Selmer's new horns very much. However I have always been a Selmer fan but dont have enough info to disagree. how are the Series III instruments compared to the old mark VIs? Please post your opinions and your experiences(if any). Thak yhou

[Dave Dolson]

kyhi: I've owned a MKVI soprano and a Serie III soprano. I also own a MKVI alto.

The Serie III sop was FAR superior to the MKVI I owned. Better intonation, better sound, better keywork, better response throughout the range. I sold the Serie III.

What do I play today? . . . for soprano I play Yanagisawa S992, SC902, and an old silver straight Buescher . . . all better then the Serie III, in my opinion.

The MKVI alto stays in the attic while I play a Yana A992 and an old silver Buescher TT, both superior to the MKVI, again in MY opinion. DAVE

[Andrew]

I think that the Selmer III line is a VERY good horn. I personally had one recently and I compared it to the Silver VI I have now...basically, it came down to this....character. The VI was darker, and lusher than the III, but the III had much more punch and projection to it. But, I could manipulate the sound on my VI a heck of a lot more than I could with the III. I would have kept the III as my back up, but I needed cash, so I sold it.

[singlereed]

The Serie III is a very good horn, it has great intonation, smooth fast keywork and a lively flexible sound. I had a nice Mark VI alto for a while as well as my III but I kept the III as it just plays better for me. The VI had a lovely smooth even response and was very fast to play - the great thing about the VI keywork is that there's nothing non-essential so its light and fast. However, I find I get a greater range of tone colours from my III so that's what I settled with. The III sopranos are especially good too. I have played a few III tenors and have always been underwhelmed - I have a mid-60's Mark VI tenor, and if I was looking at a new Selmer tenor I'd go for a II or one of the Reference horns.

[Dr G]

How are the new Selmer horns? My lesson teacher says that he doesn't like Selmer's new horns very much. However I have always been a Selmer fan but dont have enough info to disagree. how are the Series III instruments compared to the old mark VIs? Please post your opinions and your experiences(if any). Thak yhou

I, too, have had many Selmers over the years - including vintage sops, altos and tenors. From my limited perspective (fewer than 20 horns), I have developed a preference for newer horns. I prefer the Serie III sop, Serie II alto, and Ref 36 tenor.

[Gregg W. Jackson]

My impressions with the tenor are similar to Andrew's -- my Mark VI for character and my Series III for punch and projection. The action on the Series III is stiffer, but it seems to be getting easier the more that I play the horn. And a Phil Barone neck on the Mark VI has added enough punch and projection to match the Series III.

So it's come down to cosmetics and replacement options. Any place that I need a pretty horn with 100% lacquer, or where the horn might be at risk, it's the Series III. Otherwise it's the Mark VI.

[BobD]

When would you ever really NEED a pretty horn?

[Gregg W. Jackson]

"NEED" as in "absolutely can't live without", probably never. "Need", as in "preferable for any one of a number of reasons", from time to time. If I'm playing for an older audience who doesn't feel comfortable with the frayed blue jeans and bare brass horn look, the shiny look of the Series III goes well with my creased slacks.

[Dr G]

My impressions with the tenor are similar to Andrew's -- my Mark VI for character and my Series III for punch and projection. The action on the Series III is stiffer...

I used to believe that the action on my III (and later the REf) was stiffer than a Mk VI. That is, I believed it until last weekend when I played a Mk VI (66,xxx) that hadn't been played much. It's original spring tension was very much like that of my more recent new horns. You just need to set the spring tension of your III to whatever you like and then play it for a few decades. :wink:

For character _and_ punch, I prefer my Ref 36... (and my Borgani Jubilee). 8)

[Gregg W. Jackson]

I've noticed that the spring action on my Series III is getting lighter the more I play it. Either that or my fingers are getting stronger. I've been meaning to take it to my tech and have him accelerate the process.

[Dr G]

Probably a couple of things going on there, Gregg. One is breaking in (wearing in) the bearing surfaces on the interior of the rods and at the ends of the rods where they meet the posts. The other component of the "action" is the spring tension. Once the mechanism "wears in" there should be little more change. You are just polishing the surfaces that are left a bit rough after manufacture. Spring tension should not change as much with play because the spring stays within its elastic limit. Once your mechanism is worn-in, take it to your tech to dial in the preferred spring tension. I've done that with both my III and my Ref 36 and it can make a big difference if you have a relatively light touch (and pads that seat well).

[Gregg W. Jackson]

Dr G, thanks for the advice. Based on what you say, I would think that it's better to let the horn wear in completely before I have the spring tension adjusted. If I had had the spring tension adjusted when I first go the horn, the wearing in might result in a lighter than desired action.

[Dr G]

You're welcome, Gregg. Enjoy your new horn. 8)

[Riff]

An interesting point to consider in comparing the Series III to the Mark VI is Selmer's marketing strategy. As we all know, Selmer has been competing with the used Mark VI market for years. When the III was first introduced it was touted as a horn that would please the Mark VI lover. But then the Reference horns were announced. So what was Selmer up to?

My theory:
Since the Mark VI changed in character over it's 20 year run it's very difficult to manufacture a Mark VI copy that will satisfy the entire Mark VI vintage market, so Selmer produced two horns. The Series III to compete with the brighter sounding, late production VIs; and the Reference 54 to compete with the darker sounding, early production VIs.
For those who have no special affinity for either early or late production VIs, there's the Series II. Finally for the Super Balanced crowd there's the Reference 36. So with these four models Selmer Paris has attacked each segment of the vintage Selmer market in an attempt to derail the competition they've faced with their own previous models.

I don't claim to have any special inside knowledge of Selmer's marketing plans but after play testing all the above horns, the above concept seems reasonable to me. At the end of the day none of the new horns sound like a Mark VI of any vintage, but they are close enough to do the job when you find the correct mouthpiece set up.

[Tears June]

Riff

I'm 100% agree your idea. Yes, I've test a clear lacquered Series III before and it has more dark sound. I also tried a Ref 45, which sound more full & dark.

My question is:

1) Do you think a Matte/Brushed Series III also has very same sound (more bright) with a clear lacquered Series III ?

2) What MP & Reed you think is the right choice of a Series III to re-produce similar sound of a Ref 54? More dark tone?

:cry:

[Riff]

Tears June-

The correct mouthpiece set up to use is the one that gives you the sound *YOU* have in your head. As always, a mouthpiece with a large chamber and little or no baffle will give the darkest sound.
For me it's a metal NY Otto Link (new Babbitt style).

On the tenors I played I used the metal Link (NY chamber) with the standard Link ligature and Rico Royal 2-1/2 reeds.

I found that:
1-The clear lacquer was the brightest sounding of the Series III finishes.
2-The matte/brushed finish was a little darker sounding.
3-The silver plate was darker than the brushed but added more resonance and brilliance.
4-The black lacquer was the darkest of the Series III finishes
5-My own 1972 Mark VI was darker than all the Series IIIs
6-The Reference 54 was darker than my Mark VI.

The Keilwerth SX90R black nickel, which is what I play now, fits between my Mark VI and the Ref. 54 in terms of darkeness.

[Tears June]

Riff

Thanks a lot!

Although many players said it's not, I believe the body finish can influence the sound more or less (as you also mention this).

1) As I know Ref 36 sounds more spread and more bright than Ref 54. How you compare Ref 36 with 2 different types of Series III - Clear lacquered, Brushed/Matte ? Which is more bright - Ref 36 or Series III ?

2) Actually, Matte & Brushed Series III is difference. The Brushed version (has engraving) has a very thin clear lacquered. But The Matte is without engraving. Do you think both version sounds very same?


http://selmersaxman.com/saxophones/Bb_Tenor/Bb_Tenor_Selmer/Serie_III_Tenor/serie_iii_tenor.html


:cry:

[Riff]

I thought that matte and brushed were the same. :oops:
Well, I've learned something new today. :D

I guess I've never played the matte finish. The ones I played were definitely brushed and engraved. Thanks for the pictures.

I agree with you that the Ref. 36 is brighter than the Ref. 54 but I did not get to compare the 36 with the Series IIIs. Sorry I can't help you there.

[Tears June]

Riff

Thanks for information. Just last few questions:


1) When you're playing the Brushed Engraved Series III & Ref 54, which keywork you feel more comfortable ?

2) What pricing of the Brushed Series III you have test ?


:cry:

[singlereed]

The keywork on the III is more comfortable to me because the palm keys are more naturally placed - the Ref palm keys are quite close to the body - I say that as someone with small hands! Other than that I like the Ref keywork very much, it has an elegant simplicity compared to the III which is a bit more complex, but nonetheless both are very smooth.

[Riff]

Tears June,
I didn't notice that the keywork was all that different between them, except for the palm key heights like singlereed said. I suppose I would prefer the Series III because I like the higher palm keys.
I had palm key extensions permanently attached to my Mark VI many years ago. Playing the Ref. 54 reminded me how low the Mark VI palm keys really are and how much I prefer the higher palm keys.

I tried these horns at USA HORN. If I remember correctly they were asking about $3600.00 US at the time for the Selmer tenors.