The more and more I think about it...

[J.Max]

You know for a long time, we've said that the Grassis were copies of Selmers. (Especially the Jade and 2000 models). I'm not sure that's accurate though...the more I think about it, the more I'm starting to become convinced that they have more in common with the Buffet horns. The keywork on them is exactly like the SDA, and the Prestige 2000 is exactly like some S1s that I've seen. The left-hand spatula on the post-Jade models in particular looks like the one on the SDA, and most importantly, it's not linked or tilting. The octave mechanism is also more similar to the SDA than the Mark VI as well.

Here's a shot of the left hand pinky spatula on the SDA:

http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/buffet/super_dynaction/alto/lacquer/49xx-wws/buff49k6.jpg


What do you think?

[J.Max]

A few other thoughts here:

-Grassi had a relationship with Buffet; they produced some of the Evette student line horns. This may or may not be significant.

-The Prestige 2000 horns have the same low Bb mechanism that the S1 has, and the S1's mechanism was patented, so Grassi would have needed permission to use it. The S1 was long out of production when the Prestige 2000 came out, so perhaps Grassi got some of their tooling? This would have been a nice "FU" to the Music Group/Boosey and Hawkes since Keilwerth was a big competitor for them, and they had to quit producing saxophones when they were purchased due to the fact (and this is well known) that the Music Group/B&H didn't want to be in competition with themselves as UMI was.

-I have owned an SDA soprano and a "Model 2000" soprano...and they had an awful lot in common. No articulated G# key for one, and there would have to have been a good reason to do this in 1990. (This was, of course, changed with the "Professional 2000".)


Not saying that they are straight up copies, but it makes for some interesting speculation.

[Martin Williams]

Having not handled as many horns as you, on inspection of my Jade model and a little bit of perusing on saxpics, you may have something there.

Keep up the interesting research!

[Captain Beeflat]

J.Max.
Considering the fact that there is only so much key work geometry able to be played by ten fingers, it would surely be difficult to find any make of saxophone which has not "borrowed" from another.
Could it not be true to say that Grassi made their own horn with just the passing wink to Selmer's bell brace and logo on the octave rocker.
In the final analysis, all horns have the appropriate fingering in the same positions and doing the same job.
To a guitarist all saxophones would be identical!

[J.Max]

J.Max.
Considering the fact that there is only so much key work geometry able to be played by ten fingers, it would surely be difficult to find any make of saxophone which has not "borrowed" from another.
Could it not be true to say that Grassi made their own horn with just the passing wink to Selmer's bell brace and logo on the octave rocker.
In the final analysis, all horns have the appropriate fingering in the same positions and doing the same job.
To a guitarist all saxophones would be identical!

Like I said, I'm not saying that they are straight-up copies, but there are certain features that distinguish some keywork over others. These include (but are not limited to): The shape,position, and mechanism of the spatula keys, the shape (teardrop, oval, standard pearl) of the front F key, the shape of the side F (standard pearl, metal, oval shaped, etc.), the way that the lower stack lines up with the upper stack (this is mostly a Keilwerth thing which copies the Conn 10M offset), the shape of the octave key mechanism (and if it's underslung).

Look, people make copies of other horns all the time: just take a gander at all of the Yanagisawa and SA-80 copies out there. Keywork is the most obvious way to see it since we can't measure the bore very easily.

Some of them are more "borrowed" than others though. The left-hand spatula on the Grassis that I mentioned is blatently copied from the Buffets. I've owned both at one time or another and I can tell you that they feel and look the same. Now, the lower stack is slightly different, with an enlarged side-F pearl on the Grassis and an oval-shaped altissimo F# key on those horns that have one.

The point of all of this is that after all the talk about them being Mark VI clones, I'm starting to wonder if they aren't a bit closer to the Buffets than the Selmers. Yes, the neck looks EXACLY like a Selmer neck, but the horn itself bares a bigger resemblance to the SDA.

Now there may be some exceptions here: clearly the "Wonderful" model is different from just about anything else I've ever seen, and the "Prestige 2000" seems to be a near exact copy of the S1, with rollers on the right hand spatula keys. (Which some S1s have.) I'm also wondering if there's a connection between Buffet stopping production on their own horns and Grassi suddenly making "true" professional instruments since they happened at almost the exact same time. That's an odd coincidence. I don't have any proof of a connection (yet) but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility.

[Russ]

I'm with J.Max on this one. Having owned several Buffet horns, my Grassi Prestige really does feel like a Buffet.

I recall having this conversation before. Maybe there is more to it.

[milandro]

I am new to the Grassi World but I currently have 3 , one Baritone and two altos. The altos are for sale and I bought them because I was curious about this brand and wanted to see and know more about these horns.

The Baritone and one of the Altos are of the so called jade series the other alto is a Wonderful model. They bear a certain resemblance to Selmer but I am afraid that it really stops to (as far as I can tell) the bell-body brace more than anything else.

The mechanics of the B and Bb (in the jade series) are very different from a Mark VI and if anything they look like very early Selmers but a lot more like a Buffet or some other French horn between the '30 and the '70 (not unlike the Dolnets I have had).

The same discrepancy compared to a Mark VI or SBA for the (side especially) octave mechanism which is very much his own Grassi thing on the altos (both the same ) and on the Baritone (also the chiver octave has nothing to do with Selmer)

The Wonderful model does feature a balanced action involving the mechanics of the B and Bb, so it does look more like a Selmer clone but has a different octave (and side octave) mechanism still.

Probably the conclusion is that Grassi did bear some resemblance to French horns but not so much to Selmer as to Buffet.

[Russ]

Milandro did you sell your horns yet ?

I just pulled my Prestige off of Ebay. I had a couple of offers for it but I declined and didn't sell, so I relisted it. Anyhow, I couldn't be bothered to go out to the car and fetch my Yanagisawa mp, so I popped on the most exotic mp I could find in the drawer, and POW !! The horn sprang into life. I could feel every reverberation through my fingers and the sound just opened up. I've only ever gotten this experience from my Buffet SDA and Ref 54, but this time I noticed the bottom end sounded like a Tenor. Awsome stuff. I believe things happen for a reason so I have re affirmed my faith in the Grassi Prestige.

So, it's no longer on Ebay, it's goodbye Yanagisawa mouthpiece, and hello............................................. .................................................. .....................................wait for it................................................ .....
.................................................. ....YAMAHA 4C !! :laughing: :laughing:

[milandro]

Not yet, I will hear something tonight about the Wonderful Model and the Jade is still there (it has a great sound the only problems with this horn is the low C# which has an awkward design), but other than that is is a great horn.