New to Forum, Jupiter Tenor, & Culture questions

[sallan]

Hi Everyone,

First a thanks for all of you who helped me through your posts when looking into my first sax purchase!

I just bought a Jupiter 787 (serial puts it at 1990 make) and I am frankly quite pleased with it so far.

I took the horn to Horn Connection in Hollywood to have it checked out and Manny the reputable tech said it has a few leaks, but said he would not replace the pads, unless I let him do a full overhaul for which he wanted to charge me $700!

Essentially he said the horn was really bad, and I should not have bought it, even though, it plays through all the tones (even with the slight leak) has a good sound, the action isn't bad. I don't have anything to compare it to, but having played clarinet for some time I can say:

I can play through the range of the horn all notes in tune. If the horn is so bad, then why does it play so acceptably?

The answer the tech gave me for reasons for doing a $700 overhaul is that I "might get discouraged". I'm a musician of 26 years, play jazz guitar mainly, and have been having a ball with this horn which is evidently really awful.

So that being said, I have an awful Jupiter horn I bought off ebay for $160 that plays the full range of notes, in tune, with a great tone (much better than I expected) and now I'm considering buying a Kessler mouthpiece to further my investment in this horrific horn that I'm having a blast with.

I was thinking about these two:

Kessler Custom 50OL7 - Basic Professional -View-
50/50 Compound Straightwall Chamber
Retail: $79.00
Sale: $54.95

Kessler Custom "OL7Pro" Hard Rubber -View-
Hard Rubber, Round Bebop Chamber, Completely Hand-Faced and individually play tested. .100" tip
Retail: $199.00
Sale: $139.00

I'm thinking the cheaper 50/50 would be a great improvement on the no name plastic mouthpiece the sax came with, was wondering if any other Jupiter 787 players out there have any experience with these mouthpieces or any others that would sound and feel good, and enhance the already robust tone of this horn.

Thanks again, and in advance!

-sallan

[RandyJ]

"So that being said, I have an awful Jupiter horn I bought off ebay for $160"

$160.00 ?? If that's correct, what did you expect? Granted starting around 2002 Jupiter saxophones made a big leap in quality, and they do (the parent company KHS) make most parts and fabricate most of the other sax brands coming out of Taiwan but again what did you expect for the amount you paid.

You say you can play it, and in tune so just play it...of find another tech!

[sallan]

lol,

don't misunderstand me, for $160 my expectations have been greatly exceeded. I just found it strange a tech would say a horn, which is for all practical purposes just fine, needed an additional $700 worth of work simply to avoid discouragement. I'm not sure how much easier hitting a low Bb, or a high C would get for $700 considering it's more or less effortless to get as is.

Thanks for the reply!

-sallan

[saxpiece]

Manny the reputable tech. Hmmmmmm.
A lot of techs like to make money.
I would trust a so called tech as far as I could throw them and would get a second opinion.

I have a 1990 JAS-667 Jupiter Alto made in Taiwan and there is nothing wrong with it.
The Jupiter saxes might have improved a bit in the past few years but I get the feeling that the people dismissing the older Jupiter saxes havn't tried them or are just snobs.

I also have a couple of Yamaha YAS-21 Altos which would be viewed as a better sax than my Jupiter especially by snobs and there is not much of a difference between my Jupiter and my Yamaha's tonewise.
The Yamahas do have a nicer feeling action and feel more delicate than my Jupiter but big deal, a player should be able to adjust to different actions and even mouthpieces.
Remember Charlie Parker could play on any sax he borrowed, even a plastic one.

And no matter what sax you buy, the player is mostly responsible for how it sounds. A lot of musicians blame their instrument and by doing this they are avoiding responsibilty for their own playing.
Modern horns (even as far back as the 1980s) are made using cnc (computer controlled) machines that route out the toneholes on a sax with very precise measurements and all the inaccurate placing of toneholes are a thing of the past, so if someone is talking about intonation problems they really mean their technique sucks unless they really do have a major problem like a pad missing or something like that.
I've seen very good sax players rip on so called student horns like the Jupiters and Yamahas.

Unless a sax is really made cheaply like some of the dodgy Chinese saxes (and I don't mean all Chinese saxes) then the player should be able to get an acceptable sound happening. It might not be their favourite tone but they should be able to get what would be an acceptable tone to most audiences.

[sallan]

Thanks for the reply saxpiece,

"Remember Charlie Parker could play on any sax he borrowed, even a plastic one"

Thats right, and even horns with broken keys couldn't stop bird. It's been about a week since I've posted this and now that I've found a good place to blow, I have pretty good command over the horn. I think the tone is very pleasing, even with the no name mouthpiece, and I've been able to play through the chromatic scale throgh two octaves with no bad notes, or intonation issues. As far as action goes, I've been able to rip off some very fast lines without missing a beat, no pads sticking or anyting negative to speak of. I'm practicing Giant Steps, and Satelite heads and it's pretty easy to get the Coltrane articulations. Had someone who isn't a sax player sit in with me, and he thought the horn sounded really good! So I think I'll take the techs words with a grain of salt. SNOB is a great way to put the attitude of that shop, I don't think I'll go back there if I don't have to. When people duck into my practice spot with a smile on their face wanting to check out the saxophone player, they arent interested in seeing what brand of sax I'm playing.

Kudos to you saxpiece, I think most of the responsibility is on the player to make a sax sound good, or any other instrument for that matter. It's been a few weeks since I bought my sax, I went from fumbling around with the fingering chart, to playing a few heads, and ziping out some fast double register runs. Your right the Jupiter 787 is a heavy instrument...I wouldn't describe it as delicate. If I had any complaint at all it would be the pain in my right thumb after holding it for a while. Better neck strap, thumbrest, or posture would probably remidy that.

-sallan

[Jerry K.]

No direspect meant towards all techs, but some of them have an absolute bias against any Non Big 4 Brands. They tend to lump anything else into the Chinese junk category though most of us know that there are some really good horns coming out of Taiwan now, and improving quality out of China. I would run from that tech! Hey if your horn is playing well, in tune, and you're good with it, that's all that matters.

On the matter of your thumb, mess around some with the angle of the thumbrest if adjustable, as well as the position of the horn and mouthpiece. Also a nice padded strap helps when playing a long time.

Enjoy!

[SaxyAcoustician]

I'll repeat: A good horn is a good horn is a good horn.

If it plays for you, then it plays for you. Doesn't matter what anyone says, including snobby techs. $700 for an overhaul?? Yeah, SNOB.

[soybean]

If I had any complaint at all it would be the pain in my right thumb after holding it for a while. Better neck strap, thumb-rest, or posture would probably remedy that.-sallanPlay that Jupiter for a year or so and enjoy it. After that, your chops will be developed enough that you'll be able to appreciate a better horn (if you want one). I still play my Jupiter soprano of about the same vintage as yours.

You might also go over to Baxter Northrup music in Sherman Oaks. Steve that works there is very knowledgeable and helpful to sax players of all stripes. He can replace just the pads that need replacing.

For straps, i really like the newer Ricos:http://www.ricoreeds.com/productdetails.aspx?productCategoryName=Accessorie s&productID=4078 . A lot of guys use the Neotek straps too.

If adjusting the thumb-rest doesn't help, you might look at the L.A.Sax/Saxgourmet thumbrest. I just got one and love it on the tenor.

[sallan]

Thanks for the replies guys, it's good to get some grounded advice. Soybean, I nearly rented a YTS from Steve at Baxter Northrup, until I found this sax for for the same price as two months rental. Really nice guys, I should have probably just went there, and will in the next few weeks.

On the thumb rest, it's adjustable side to side, but haven't found anything that feels real good. I'm definitely supporting a lot of horn with just the thumb...I simply don't really notice any pain till the practice session is over. I'm checking out that neck strap, and thumb rest asap! Thanks for the advice. I probably will upgrade at some point, but right now it's perfect for my level.

-sallan

[soybean]

BTW, what did you mean by "culture" questions?

[sallan]

Hi Soybean,

I was refering to saxophone(ist) culture with regard to my horn not being of the big three, and the way I was treated because of it by the particular shop I took my horn to. Was curious if this was a broad perspective of saxophonists and enthusiests...to more or less discriminate against someone because of the horn they have. When I began playing clarinet for instance I never noticed any bias at all with regard to the type of clarinet you owned...other clarinetists were simply happy you had one and were enthusiastic to help out in any way. I'm beginning to get the feeling I just ran into some rotten eggs. When I was playing guitar with Harold Land in the late 90's I never noticed him throw a hint of a glance of disgust at any students horn, and the same can be said for Herman Riley, and Charles Owens, both excellent teachers.

I think I just ran into some folks with the attitude that anything that costs less than 5k isn't worth acknowledging as a horn, and if you don't have 5k, don't even try to pick up anything else until you do.

-sallan

[sallan]

Ok,

So I suppose it's time for an update? Posted this thread mid January, complete (almost) beginer, and progress has been good. Improvisation wise I've been working on pretty much the Kind of Blue record with my good friend Jaime Aebersold, and finding lots of cool things. Low end is still not where I want it to be, jumps into overtones too easy, feel too slack jawed when I open up to hit the bottom. Solution, pratice more long tones!

I've also nailed my first recording credit on sax, with my sheety jupeeter saxomophone..lucky break the tune was Dmi.

I was also given the Kessler 50/50 with a bonade inverted ligature to play with and have noticed a much fuller rounder tone. I still seem to blow "past the reed" meaning sometimes I gear up for a powerful blast, and I get silence, like blowing into a pluged up pipe. Not sure if this means I'm blowing to hard for the reed strength (2.0 for now) or just blowing too hard.

Still practicing 3-4 days a week. My lip still takes a bit of a beating...will post the recording when it's handed back to me.

Cheers!!!

-sallan

[DaveKessler]

Ok,

So I suppose it's time for an update? Posted this thread mid January, complete (almost) beginer, and progress has been good. Improvisation wise I've been working on pretty much the Kind of Blue record with my good friend Jaime Aebersold, and finding lots of cool things. Low end is still not where I want it to be, jumps into overtones too easy, feel too slack jawed when I open up to hit the bottom. Solution, pratice more long tones!

I've also nailed my first recording credit on sax, with my sheety jupeeter saxomophone..lucky break the tune was Dmi.

I was also given the Kessler 50/50 with a bonade inverted ligature to play with and have noticed a much fuller rounder tone. I still seem to blow "past the reed" meaning sometimes I gear up for a powerful blast, and I get silence, like blowing into a pluged up pipe. Not sure if this means I'm blowing to hard for the reed strength (2.0 for now) or just blowing too hard.

Still practicing 3-4 days a week. My lip still takes a bit of a beating...will post the recording when it's handed back to me.

Cheers!!!

-sallan

Glad to hear that the 50/50 piece is working well for you.

As for your "blowing past the reed", what reed are you using? My gut reaction is that you may want to go to a stiffer and thicker reed. We are really hot on the Vandoren V16 reeds. They are a thicker blank and flex very well to our facing curve. So try a V16 2.5 and see how that handles for you.

Good to hear you Jupeeter is honking along fine for you. $160 for the time that you have had it; heck, it would have cost more to rent a horn over that time period.

Dave Kessler
Kessler & Sons Music

[sallan]

Hi Dave!


Yeah, the link is nearly half the price of the total package, well worth it too. Big difference in nearly every aspect, especially high overtones.

I thought I might be ready to bump the reed up, I'll give those vandorens a shot. I've been using ricco royal 2.0 since february.

"Good to hear you Jupeeter is honking along fine for you. $160 for the time that you have had it; heck, it would have cost more to rent a horn over that time period."

My thoughts exactly, and was the main reason for the purchase. Still have a long way to go with that horn too, it's really holding together nicely, and I haven't had any problems knock on wood (still haven't taken it back to any repair man) .


sallan

[BeyondSax]

Sallan:

Jupiters are fine instruments. I don't know if yours was made before or after the big upgrade in their manufacturing processes, but even prior to that the Jupiters were not junk. I have had several of their horns, including a 989 tenor, 969 Alto and 847 soprano. My youngest daughter has the first two and I still have the 847. I offered her the choice of professional model Yanagisawa and Yamaha tenors, and after playing all three she chose the Jupiter tenor as having the best ergos and sound. All three of the Jupiters we own have excellent production quality, intonation and sound. My Mark VI alto (mint and professionally adjusted) doesn't have anywhere near as accurate intonation as the Jupiter 969. Same with a Mark VI soprano compared to the 847.

What some folks also don't know is that at least a couple of the big brand name companies subcontract parts and even complete horn manufacturing to Jupiter (usually their intermediate and beginner models). Jupiter use the latest CNC machining and have excellent quality control.

With regard to your horn and its couple of leaks, may I suggest you consider repadding it yourself instead of paying the $700. You can get repair books, pads, Micro Pad & Cork cement, and basic tools from Ferree's. I made my own leak light with a battery AA holder, wire and bulb socket and 6v bulb from a local electronics store (cost me $7 excluding batteries). If you have any mechanical ability at all, it is pretty easy to remove the key, scrape out the pad and replace it. You might need to borrow a set of calipers to get an accurate measure of the pad/cup so that you can order the right size pad (note: pads come in both diametre and thickness variations in addition to different leathers and resonators). I once thought disassembly, cleaning, oiling, repadding and adjusting were complicated but have totally changed my view after restoring a few horns. It isn't complicated, but it is meticulous and requires good organisation and visualisation skills. Mainly you need a few different size screwdrivers, some spring hooks and some good pliers (order from Ferree's). I still send out the really tough stuff (dents, bends, replacement part reproduction, and major repairs) but now do everthing else myself.

[sallan]

Thanks Beyond Sax,

It's nice to hear someone with reference to other horns have good things to say about mine, and their experience with theirs.

I have experiemented with my own leak light (a maglight and string in a dark room lol) and did re-glue the one loose 'low C' pad myself. I did look into some repair tutorials (I think I got intimidated at the springs sections) and have intermediate mechanical abilities. I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to work on my own horn (assuming I take the time to learn to do it correctly) as I work on my guitars, and other instruments. But it will be a while I think before I arrive at that place. But it's definitely on the map!!

sallan

[Kareeser]

I learned to play the sax on a 767GL :)

I remember mine was built like a tank... dropped it bell first onto the ground - wasn't dented, wasn't knocked out of alignment.

Anyhow: You shouldn't be supporting the sax with your thumb... that's what the neckstrap is for! (I could be wrong, but that's how it is on the alto)
In most cases, the thumb is balance. Make sure you don't fall into the habit of keeping your neckstrap lax, and developing the unmistakeable tenor sax neck ;)