When am I ready for a Blues Jam?

[chipmorrison]

I'm 55 and have been playing saxophone (alto, then tenor) for about seven years, mostly self-taught but more recently with a teacher. So far, I play only at home, practicing about two hours a day if I'm lucky. I do scales, long tones, overtones, patterns, all that stuff in the morning. In the evening I work on standards and jam with my blues CDs.

Over the past couple of years I've developed the ambition to take part in a blues jam they hold at a local club every Sunday night. The quality of playing is pretty high (it seems to me). Recently, I've been "lurking" and I've gotten to the point where I think I'm almost ready to jump in.

But not quite, and there's the problem. How do you know when you're ready for that sort of thing? I've had some people say, "Just do it!" "What have you got to lose?" I've had others tell me that you have to have your head together, you don't want it to end up being a bad experience.

My recent thinking is that I'll be ready when: (a) I can automatically work through a I-IV-V progression in all the common keys; (b) I have a real strong sense of how to fill in behind a singer and "shadow" the bass player. And...well, what else?

[Mike W]

Hi Chip, I figured someone who knew something would have replied by now. Sounds to me like you are ready. I have been back playing (after a long layoff) for only three years. After 20 something (well, more like 30) years of being away from the gigging scene, I don't really feel qualified to answer your question though. Why not set up you own jam session with some like-minded folks so there is no pressure. I jam that way sometimes with some friends and we just laugh at mistakes.

[steve]

At age 55, you should do what feels right to you. If you are "lurking" off stage, you are ready. You are practicing more than most players....don't keep your music to yourself...share it.
Learn to play the basic 12 bar progresion in the most popular blues keys...E,A,D,G,C and you'll do fine. Keep some water handy for the inevitable "dry mouth".
If the house band is professional, they will make you feel welcome. The most fun I've had on recent vacations was to throw a horn into the trunk and seek out jams...Sedona Az. and Gainesville Fl. come to mind.

[jazzbluescat]

......for guitar bands. Or, you could learn to blow in the normal keys of F Bb Eb G & C for the jazz bluesers.

:wink:

[steve]

"Normal" is the key called by the house band leader. Blues bands play a lot of stuff in non-horn friendly keys. Our blues band plays covers in the recorded key...and a majority of our blues music is in E ,A, and G concert. You learn to adapt.

[JL]

My recent thinking is that I'll be ready when: (a) I can automatically work through a I-IV-V progression in all the common keys; (b) I have a real strong sense of how to fill in behind a singer and "shadow" the bass player. And...well, what else?

Chip, yes, you are ready to start jamming if you have this much together. And you'll learn a lot by playing with others. It's ok to make some mistakes. Sometimes you learn more from your mistakes than anything else.

You ask "what else?" In the short term, knowing the basic blues progression in several common "guitar" keys (E, A, G, C, D), is fine. Also, you'll want to know the blues scale (1,2,b3,4,5,b5,7) in those keys. In the longer term, you definitely want to get comfortable in all 12 keys. I've had plenty of guitar players (usually the better ones) call keys such as Bb, F, Ab, and B. So be ready for any key. Also start learning some of the standard horn lines; you can pick these up off of blues cds with horn players or a horn section on them. On many tunes there is a "signature" line that you want to be able to play---the first line of "Messin' with the Kid," or the intro to "Caledonia" come to mind. Most of these lines are very simple and often based on a pentatonic scale. Finally, you want to learn some standard blues/R&B tunes that are often called--see the thread in the Rock and Roll section of this forum that mentions various blues/R&B standards. Good luck and have fun with it! Also, let us know how it goes.

[harpinblue]

All great advice above - I want to cover this from a slightly different angle. I have been playing blues sax now for a cupla months, but started with harmonica a good while back. throw me 12, 24, 36 bars at any tempo or groove and I can give you a nice harp solo. BUT I found that wasn't enough for me to feel fulfilled at a blues jam. I'm alright on sax, but not ready yet - because, as discussed, there are a few fairly common keys that give me fits - concert E = F# for me on Tenor. Ick! I have to practice my scales!.

I started out simply wanting to get up on stage and be handed 12 bars to solo somewhere the middle of the song. Once in a while that happens - but often is doesn't. You might get up there once in a night - only to have some other jammer up at the same time who calls a song he cannot communicate, doesn't know what key it is in, changes keys 3 times in the middle without signaling the band, never looks at anyone and never hands you a solo. Honest to god, happened to me. Sorta makes the drive not worth it. Once in a while you get up there with some really good musicians, which of course makes you better too - and it is really fun. But especially if you don't know most of the folks there, the schlep/reward ratio is pretty poor - could be great, could be a trainwreck. You CAN increase the chances of success by being prepared though.

Your best chance of enjoyment is to be the one to take charge. YOU have a song prepared. YOU call the key, the tempo, communicate with the other players to help them along (signal breaks, uncommon changes, etc.) If there are lyrics, be prepared to sing them. For me, this is how to make the jam more rewarding. Admittedly, again, this is a bit from the harp perspective. Harp/vocal songs aren't uncommon - the sax can easily be a lead instrument but can also be happy hanging out in the back doing some nice fills.

Our band is learning several songs from one of my favorite blues albums, Boz Scagg's The opening sax solo to T-Bone Shuffle was the 1st 12-bar solo I mastered on the sax. We're doing Sick and Tired (a different accomp. line for sax w/ every verse), Runnin Blues - good songs to learn.


And JL - if you're reading this - your posts are consistently educational and well-informed. I wish this board had private messaging so I could contact you = I would very much like to meet you, pick your brain, hear you play, get some tips, etc. I am so hungry for input right now! Where in the Bay Area are you? Is there a way I can contact you?

(P.S. - I DO know the intro to Caldonia and Messin' with Kid!)

[JL]

Thanks, harpinblue. I play with a band called "Blue JuJu." Go to Blue JuJu.com

[harpinblue]

Thanks, harpinblue. I play with a band called "Blue JuJu." Go to Blue JuJu.com

Great, JL -

I tried the URL as above, plus blue-juju, blue_juju, blue%20juju - none worked. Would you please give me the URL again? Thanks!

[JL]

Oh, sorry. It's:

www.bluejuju.net

I gotta get the "dot.com" out of my head. We're a fairly new band. Just got a new female vocalist and now we're off & running.

[harpinblue]

JL- you have mail!

Thanks

[Saxdaddy]

If its just a jam, then get up there and just do it. This sounds more like stage fright than an ability issue. We all know that there is only one way to get rid if the jitters, just do it. After a few jams, you will start to loosen up, and play. I never went enough into theory to be able to practice all the scales, but use to sit in a room 3+ hours a day flipping radio stations, and playing along. When I joined a blues band, it was pretty simple, yet still alot of fun. I think by only using the ear, and not thinking about what I could or couldn't play in that key, but just letting go and singing through the horn, there was alot more room to really express myself, and the best part is that the audience would get sucked into it as well. This is not to say through away all the theory and just play by ear, but either way, let go, and sing.

[Mike W]

SaxDaddy pretty much describes the way I play too. I am working on learning scales now, but never knew them years ago when I played for $. In most of the groups I played with, I was the only one who could read music at all. Everything was by ear.

[chipmorrison]

Thanks to everyone who replied to my original post. Probably is mostly stage fright or fear of unknown. I've commited in my mind to forcing myself to get up there by 1st of year. Will report.

In the meantime, a follow-up question. When I play along with my blues CDs, I find I can almost always figure out the key, usually in in a few bars. I just sort of feel my way into it intuitively. However, if you ask me the name of the key I might have to stop and think. I guess I know what key I'M in, but it would take me some thinking to figure out what key the band is in. Tenor seems fairly easy (I'm up a note for most keys) but it doesn't work for all keys, and alto is a more complicated.

Also, I think I can sense the chord changes and play within those, but again, I don't have very good "meta" awareness of it. For example, if you ask me what is the ("IV") in the key of G, I don't have a quick answer.

So, my question is, how important is it to memorize these things? I've talked with people, professional musicians, that definitely know what's going on at a meta level. For example, they're thinking they're playing a flatted 7 when I'm thinking, if I'm thinking at all, F#.

To put it another way, when the leader calls for say, a slow blues in G, do tenor players think, "Okay, that's A for me...and the IV is such and such and the V is such and such...."? Or do you just sort of slide into it?

And sorry, another question. Where do you stand? Back next to the bass player? Up next to the vocalist? And who do you tune in on most? The bass player? The vocalist? Everybody? (Gives me the willies just to think about this.)

[larry]

Hey Chip - are you talking about Johnny D's? I'm in the same boat as you - looking for jam opportunities around Boston - not quite sure if I'll fall on my face or not...

Maybe you and I should go together some night - I'll buy you a shot a courage if you buy me one! email me at lmgelberg@rcn.com if interested?

[chipmorrison]

Yeah, that's the place, Larry. I'll e-mail.

[JL]

Chip, it sounds like you have a pretty good ear and that's the MOST important thing, but it really does help to know things like the name of the IV chord and where the b7th is for each chord, etc. Much of that will come in time, but here's a few answers to your questions, at least from my perspective.

The tenor key is always one full step above the concert key. So in the key of concert C, your tenor will be in D; concert G = A on the tenor, and so on. When the band calls a blues in E, you'll play your tenor in F#. For alto, think a minor third down from concert key (G concert = E on the alto).

When the leader calls a "blues in G," this tenor player (that's me) will immediately think: Key of A on the tenor; the IV is D, the V is E. In blues, those chords are usually dominant (A7, D7, E7), unless you're dealing with a minor blues. Now I don't always think this out on a conscious level, but I know it in my mind and will sometimes remind myself what the V or the II is, or whatever chord is coming up. You could just play off the blues scale, but it's still important to sense the chord progression so you know where you are.

As to where you stand, the short answer for a jam session is wherever you can fit, or, if they have a mike set up, obviously that's where you'll be. In most bands I've been in with one sax, the sax is right up front and center, next to the vocalist. That'll cure any stage fright in a hurry!

Finally, as I pointed out before, don't be afraid of making mistakes in a jam session. Just be sure to take note when you do make a mistake and figure out why what you played didn't work (wrong note for the chord, wrong rhythm, whatever). Get out there and play, then let us know how it goes.

[GZsound]

As an also 55 year old sax player let me make a suggestion to make your jamming easier and more fun.

For years I have been teaching my students to forget the "technical" side of playing... You know, what scale can I play if the band is in concert C, etc. I have them concentrate on telling a story.

You say you get confused by I - 4- 5, etc. Here is a little trick that seems to help my students.

Get a keyboard. It doesn't matter if it's a cheap Casio, just so long as it has the ability to sustain a chord.

Play "Louie, Louie". There is your basic chord structure for almost every blues tune ever written.

Sustain a "C" chord. Play around with the chord. Try to tell a story around the C. Find "red" notes, grace notes, passing tones, etc. that will allow you to get from the root (C) and back. Now sustain the "F". Do the same thing. Then the "G".

Now do the same thing in the key of D. Then in E, G, etc. all the major blues keys for typical blues jams. Stay on each chord for as long as it takes to find every note that will fit in that chord.

If you don't know what the four chord is when you are in D, play Louie, Louie in D and find the chords..

Pretty soon you will be able to "tell a story" in any key, you will know that a blues jam in C will go to the F and then the G and you'll have a great time.

You can over practice, over think and over play. Just do it and have fun. It's worked for me for 44 years..

[chipmorrison]

Well, I finally did it. With Saddam Hussein in captivity, another Patriot's victory in the bag, and a heavy snow falling (thus likely to keep the crowd down), it seemed the time was right for my blues jam breakout. I packed up the Conn alto and walked over to the club in the snow. I put my name on the list and eventually got called up to play with the house band and other jammers.

It turned out to be a pretty long set. I think they kept me up there for about six songs. Not because I was any good, but there was a low turn-out, because of the snow I think, so they were keeping people up there longer than usual.

I gave myself a C+. I was comfortable that I was in the right key (B flat, A, C, G are keys I remember they played in), and I could following the changes okay. Also, I think I was okay on the etiquette stuff, laying off when other guys took solos, and not playing over the singer, etc. And, although I was not planning to, I even took some solos when the leader nodded at me.

On the down side, I muffed several notes and my lines were terribly repetitive, boring really. And altogether it was a pretty mediocre performance. I have no doubt I was the worst player up there all night.

But the leader was kind, welcomed me to the jamming culture, and told me to come back. So, back to practicing. And yes, I will go back, hopefully with some slighly better chops.

And thanks very much to everyone who answered this post with advice and encouragement. This was a big deal for me, and I appreciate your support.

Chip

[Mike W]

Congratulations Chip!!! Don't be too hard on yourself. Sometimes what sounds old and lame to us--licks we practice a lot--can sound fresh and suprisingly good to the listeners. I suspect musicians are often more critical of themselves than their audience is. I suspect you played a lot better than you think.

[steve]

...and bar walkin' can't be far behind. Congratulations!

[larry]

Congrats Chip! I really wanted to join you, but the snow was falling pretty hard up here by 5:00 and me and my glass of scotch settled down in front of the fire for the night.

I'm glad the folks were friendly and you had plently of playing opportunities. I'll try to get there next week, children and wife permitting... :oops:

[Bill Mecca]

Congrats Chip!!

You have conquered the largest hurdle, just getting up there. And has been said, don't be too hard on yourself, most of all have fun.

[LBAjazz]

From my experience, if the leader tells you to come back, that pretty much says it all. Way to go !

[rcwjd]

Hello All

Just as another thought. If you want to get in some playing in between jams and get feedback, consider trying out the "Member Recording" thread on this SOTW. A number of us pick a tune or so a week, each posts his or her version of it, and then we comment on each person's contribution. It's a great way to get some feedback - even if not the same as playing live.

One other thought on blues progressions. I wouldn't sweat them too much because you often can play the same blues scale over the whole I, IV, V progression and sound pretty cool. If you want to know what the IV chord is going to be, memorize the cycle of fifths. That cycle will give you the IV chord for any particular chord. For example, in the cycle of fifths, starting on C, the next chord is F and the next Bb and so on. F would be the IV chord on a C blues, and Bb the IV chord on a F blues, and so on. Or you can go the other direction - e.g. the V chord for F blues is C, which coincidentally preceeds the F in the cycle of fifths in the example above. So the preceeding chord is the Fifth and the succeeding chord is the Fourth bracketing each chord in the cycle :)

Of course, minor blues create some other issues and opportunities. :wink:

[chipmorrison]

Actually, I didn't mention this, but that bit about the cycle of fifths was KEY.

My teacher had pointed out the same thing--given any note in the cycle as the I, the next note counterclockwise is the IV and the one clockwise is the V. Based on this idea, I made myself a little device (I think I re-invented what people have since told me is a "transposing wheel") involving some wooden disks with holes drilled at certain spots to view different notes in the cycle, depending on how you rotate the wheel, given the key the band is playing in. (I made it with two sides, one for alto and one for tenor--see below). Anyway, this thing gave me the confidence to go up there and feel reasonably comfortable that I could quickly figure out the I, IV, and V (and other notes in the blues scale) given any key the band decided to play in. I just put it down on the monitor and it worked.

Well, sort of. Funny thing was, on the first song, I found myself playing with the band in a key that sounded right, but wasn't the one my little device told me I should be in. Later I figured out that it was because I'd been looking at the "tenor" side of my device and I was playing alto. So, my ear over-rode my little crutch. A good sign, I guess.

But the point is, that thing about the location of the I, IV, V in the cycle of fifths is really what finally gave me the confidence to get up there. That, and a certain degree of bravado. In one of his harmonica books, John Gindick says something about how if you want to get better at an instrument, you have to convince yourself that you're better than you actually are.

Anyway, thanks again to everyone who replied to my post.

[rcwjd]

Glad the cycle idea was helpful. Good luck.

[larry]

Hey Chip - you're an inspiration. I went to JohnnyD's tonight - looked for you but didn't see you - and did my first blues jam.

I was pretty comfortable with the changes, but wicked nervous - they didn't pair me with a singer, so being the horn player, I had to supply the heads, and my mind went totally completely blank. I tried to start off with "Bessie's Blues" but lost the melody halfway through the first chorus and just improvised the rest. Being at a total loss of ideas, I pulled out all my "special effects" - instead of playing interesting lines, I screeched, growled, and honked, all in a deliberate ploy to draw attention away from the fact that I had no coherent strategy. And it worked more or less. The audience seemed to eat it up proving that style wins out over substance more times than we care to admit.

Lessons learned: I think I would have been fine if all I needed to do was back up the singer and take a couple of choruses. But as seen tonight, you very well might be called to play to the lead, so you'd better have a couple songs (in several keys) ready to go. The drummer asked if I could do Watermelon Man or Chicken Feathers which I just couldn't remember for the life of me. Next time I show up, I'll be better prepared to call a standard blues tune if needed.

Anyways, Chip, thanks for paving the road and providing the gumption to get off my butt and try.

[chipmorrison]

After my "debut" back in January, I kind of lost confidence and went back to solo practicing. I made a commitment to myself that I was going to get better.

One thing I need to was try to really immerse myself in blues in every key, or at least all the common ones. I got one of those MP3 players and loaded about 70 blues numbers on it, mostly with horn parts. I put it on "random" and listen every day on my bicycle commute back and forth from work. Also on my runs. And I spent a lot of time playing along with my CDs down in the cellar. For example, a couple of Sundays back I spent almost two hours with Coleman Hawkins/Ben Webster "Blues for Yolande."

I noticed I was getting a little bored playing just by myself and so last Sunday I got up the nerve again to go over to the club, this time with the tenor. I got paired up with a great little blues singer with a huge voice (thanks Rose!) who was really encouraging. I even got a smattering of applause on one of my solos.

Funny thing was, I had forgotten to bring along my little transposing wheel and since I still haven't memorized the key conversions, I had to figure it out on the fly, which it turns out I can do now.

[The Real Konrad]

Dude,

That's great... I've been playing guitar forever in bands, but I don't take it to blues jams. In a way that is a high-pressure deal. Plus Texas guitar players and sax players are always expected to blow the roof off of the place, which I doubt I'll ever manage.

One day maybe, but not anytime soon.

K

[chipmorrison]

Yeah, well so far this is the only way I've been able to figure out how to play blues with other people in front of an audience. If you're already in a band, you're set. The fear is big. It kind of puts the whole experience on another level, like a living dream that's always just a few squeaks or bad notes away from turning into a nightmare. But I figure the whole deal is supposed to be a little edgy, so I'm trying to live with that.

Reminds me a little of running high school track in the 60s. I hated the day of the meet, bad anxiety right up to the start, then the gun goes off and you just do it and whatever happens, happens. Same with the jamming thing.

[geosaxman]

Good analogy! You have some guts to get up there, and I believe that for the most part, when you mess up, you’re the only one that really knows! One of the first times I took your path (not so long ago) and they pulled me up to jam in E, and figured out that meant F#, I got shy! That’s when the bass player told me to just pull out my mouthpiece and play in F (bass players apparently are famous for over simplifying situations, and by the way, I did not take his advice, but I did play).

I just read this old thread and you’re ready. If you mess up call it a passing tone, artistic freedom, whatever! The fact is, if they let you play, you're ready!

[chipmorrison]

Thought I'd give an update little more than two years down the road. Am now playing regularly, two nights/week in three or four different local clubs, blues and R&B. Switched to bari over the summer. Am concentrating on learning bari parts to R&B standards that get played most frequently, reconnecting in new way with music I cared most about growing up more than 30 years ago. Playing bari (inspired partly by Larry, thanks!), I don't need to feel I'm competing with the numerous gun-slinging tenors out there, am content to be role player, just trying to add some value at the bottom end. I often get compliments on my sound and was recently asked to join pick-up R&B band for a local benefit. Have gotten to the point where I can't imagine not doing this. Maybe most important, along the way have made many new friends in local jamming community. Was I ready two years ago? Knowing what I know now, probably not, but if I hadn't started, wouldn't be where I am. I am thankful for the early encouragement from this thread. And for the tolerance and encouragement of the folks I play with now. Hope this story inspires other late-bloomers.

[saxyjeff]

Chip,

Hi,

This is a great thread you started up and I just read it and really appreciated all the others great advice and your updates and progress. You may not realize it but this whole thread is a completed perfect chapter in your life. I too began playing again after many years, playing jazz in some community bands and taking private lessons with our local sax master. I guess I'm a nonperfect perfectionist. As a doctor I had a busy schedule with my practice. However as a part time student of the sax (supposedly my alter ego obsession) there always seemed to be "something" else taking precedence over my "practice" time.

I will never forget my initial FEAR at the local junior college (you know, 38 year old adult in a room with basically high school mentality kids) being told to take a solo (I immediately got the 1st chair position...felt like an old fraud) and couldn't do anything but sputter after screwing up the first few bars. I kept at it. I would always "pull it out of my ***" the day of a concert by (LOL) cancelling all my appts with patients at my clinic (basically my staff would give them rehab therapy only) and I wouild be shedding all day trying to learn a coltrane, et al solo note for note and then...totally blowing something else at the concert. My stuff came out ok anyway. I was never nervous once the gig began but up until 30 mins (inside anyway) I would be the quivering "Jello" pilot on Airplane. Nobody knew this but, man, glad those days are over.

My instructor kept refining my tone and now I sound good enough that cats want to get my contact info and invite me to play in their projects. I played with my instructor at his gig several mos ago (finally had the nerve). It was his last nite with the gig and the Keyboardist asked me if I would be interested in playing with him. So for the next 4 mos I played at the nicest restaurant in town and really learned a lot.

I've just relocated to the Bay Area (san francisco) and am getting hooked up with some friends in the local San Jose scene. I still get nervous (and feel like a fraud) but I'm glad I'm growing. Finally committing to learning (memorizing) the scales and theory again.

Sorry about the long post everyone...I'll drink some Kaopectate before I post next time!...LOL

Jeff

[martysax]

Yo Chip and Larry,

Let me know if you guys are going to go to Johnny D's some Sunday. I haven't done that jam in ~13 years, that make's Monster Mike ~26.

I love scotch and blues on a Sunday afternoon. We could have a SOTW Summit!