Holton Saxophone; Serial number registry

[soybean]

It's been pointed out by a few people here, including Bruce Bailey, that Holton sax serial number lists on the internet are not correct. It sure would be nice to have an accurate list. To help this problem, I'm starting this registry.

Everyone please list the number on your horn and specifically what the features are. In the future, it might be possible to make a better list of serial numbers from what we do here. I'll start out with my C-melody, some serials from this board and then some pertinent quotes from others.

#22051
"Frank Holton, Elkhorn, Wis."
Silver plate, C-melody with lots of extra keys including front F. Has opposing bell keys (butterfly style)
I'm guessing it's between 1925-1929.

#27422
"silver plate alto with 'extra' keys."

#118552 "made in 1935 (?) Frank Holton & Co. tenor sax that has - made by Revelation.. above the Holton name.

[by the way, if any of you have an original sales receipt in the sax case, please list the date of sale]

Holton… satin gold plated tenor with polished gold plated keys and polished inside the bell serial No 89XX so i'm guessing pretty early. It has no engraving apart from frank Holton etc (nothing ornate)
it has soldered but not bevelled tone holes,
has the extra C# and G trill keys (i think thats right.)

Sax_Pete: "Frank Holton soprano serial 39xxx"

Bruce Baily: "Handcraft clone #37xxx and every bit as good as a real Martin"

"holton baritone sax, silvered, serial #14xxx"

TenTenTooter: "The tenor has soldered tone holes, Eb fork fingering, G# trill, high D trill, serial number either 11xx or 11xxx."

beboplawyer: "Holton model 241 Tenor from 1948 (?) Serial 195***"

hafuch: "I've been playing a silver-plated Holton tenor model 243 (sn 277xxx) from 1955 (?), and I have rarely played its equal."

fredj608: "Soprano. it's nickel-plated and the main part, not the keys and action, is sandblasted. Made by Frank Holton and Co, Elkhorn Wis engraved on the bell-front, and "Bb 18782" and the letters L P widely spaced on the bell-back."

tommyr: "I have been playing an old Holton since at least 1975. It has withstood many bumps on the way. It has a better tone than any other soprano I have tried.It has the high F key . Many question the year, and I have no idea other than a sreial # of 32560."


I have never found an accurate Holton list. I have a Holton Alto that is a Martin stencil that would be from 1917 according to most lists but it has the tone hole style that Martin started using in 1923 and the G# lever that Lyon & Healy (another Martin stencil) started in around 1927. Bottom line, compare some features to determine the year like front F, etc. Remember that opposing bell keys disappeared around the early 30s. Also the Rudy Weidoft models have LH bell keys and most numbers fall in the teens from lists I have seen.Serial number charts indicate my horn was built in 1912.(They all look like they're quoting the same source.) My bell says "Frank Holton Elkhorn Wisconsin". Reliable information has it that Holton moved to Elkhorn in 1918. …how do we account for the bell engraving that, if made in 1912, should read Chicago?I have 2 Weidoeft altos which date to 1916/1917 on all the lists I have seen. My Holton Tenor dates to 1912 and my baritone to 1915. However, I recently got an original Holton brochure which describes the "New" Rudy Weidoeft Holtons in detail (extra keys and all!) and quite clearly dates them to the late 1920's - which goes with the LH bell keys, too. A bit mysterious.
Incidentally, all my Holtons are inscribed "Elkhorn, Wis." although (supposedly) dating to before 1918.
As to the way they play - I reckon the ordinary Holtons play better than the RW which has a very slow/clumsy G#. My tenor, although not in brilliant cosmetic condition, plays well in tune with a warm vintage sound. The angle of the crook is uncomfortable, though. Another good point about Holtons is that they very often have a front high F key.
The Wiedoeft models started to appear in the late 20s but didn't do terribly well in the market. Holtons had had many of the same special features for years previously. (Some horns had the) "Master Key" features (alternate trill keys), and the venting or speaker key down by low C. I'm not sure what was added to the Wiedoeft models; maybe someone else can chip in there. Ahh "Master Key"- now i know what to call them!Wasn't Beaufort a student line, like Collegiate later on? I had thought the pro line before the Rudys was called Revelation. In any case, a lot of pre-Rudys are just marked Frank Holton & Co. / [location, see below].

I recently saw a tenor in NYC similar to the above, but without the speaker key, and engraved Chicago instead of Elkhorn, Wis. as most Holtons were. (Chicago marking would date it pre-1917, Elkhorn, post-1917.)Some [Holton saxes] are great, others not great. I have found that they tended to have models made by them (the ones with the added C# trill and clarinet style front F) and some made by others. I had an alto that was a Courturier stencil that was like a Lyon & Healy with Martin style tone holes. What I DO know is that the serial number lists are way off. Mine was from around 1928 but the serial number came back as a 1917 horn. Go by style and features not by the numbers. The made a lot of gold plated ones and some of the gold plated sopranos are really nice. I have seen several in C.

[geauxsax]

Mine is matte-finish silverplate Tenor "Elkhorn" (not Rudy Wiedoeft), sn 384XX with opposing bell keys, high f (but not with alternate fingering mechanism on front), soldered but not beveled tone holes, pearl-button G sharp, straight bell brace, and straight brace on underside of neck. Also has gold-wash inside bell. Very similar but not exactly like Silver Elkhorn Tenor on Saxpics.

Update: Took this baby in for full overhaul today (15 Nov), will get back at around New Years. I'll let everyone know how it plays when I get it back. Also, this is a pretty stoutly built axe. . .thick metal, and noticibly heavier than a Conn Chu Tenor I checked out while at the shop. The Chu's keywork (tuned and lubed up properly however, compared to the "in-the-attic for several decades" state of my Holton) made the Holton feel like a dinosaur to me though. . .still, the technician seemed pretty optimistic about the Holton, so I'm excited about future results!

[soybean]

Thanks for adding that. I didn't know Holton beveled their tone-holes but maybe those would be on the stencils Martin made for Holton.

[bruce bailey]

The Holton Alto I had was likely made by Courturier which was bought by L&H around 1928. The Holton was identical to the L&H horns made in the 1928-? era. That would put my 37,xxx Holton as being in the 1928-29 region. Another thing that makes the Holton published lists inaccurate is that the Rudy horns tend to have teens serial numbers but the construction looks late 20s. I bought a Rudy yesterday and will post back when I figure out a year. I think the stencils with beveled soldered tone holes were either Courturier or IBIco. horns and not Martin.

[ianhart]

Add mine (ok, my school's) to the mix-
1917 (maybe not, apparently) Holton Elkhorn Bari, nickel plated, C-D trill, G# trill, pearl G#, front altissimo F, Eb trill, soldered on tone holes, opposed bell keys, and says "low pitch" under the serial number.

S/N 27XXX

[soybean]

found this online: Holton C Melody #6407: Satin silver plate with gold plate inside bell. Has name professionally engraved inside bell. Standard low pitch with extra right hand G# key and alternate D key, and forked Eb key.

[soybean]

From Junkdude: "Holton C-Soprano Saxophone is keyed to high F. It is very hard to find a C-Soprano keyed to high F...this is our first. This model also features: forked Eb and pearl rollers.Serial number 19565. My best guess is this is from the mid-1920s."

[blackfrancis]

Holton Bb soprano, keyed to high F. Alt. G# & D keys. Bell reads Frank Holton Elkhorn, Wis. S/N 31576- I'd guess mid to late '20s. (A great horn that I've played for 37 years.)

[Mope]

137xxx Collegiate 1940?

[giancarlo]

just get a nice mark Vi

[geauxsax]

just get a nice mark Vi


Thanks for the tip.

[bruce bailey]

I can safely say that 38,000 would be about 1928 based on the one I had. As I mentioned over at the C Melody site, Holton appears to have seperate serial numbers for woodwinds or at least saxes. Similar to the Conn lists.

[geauxsax]

I can safely say that 38,000 would be about 1928 based on the one I had.


Thanks Bruce--that seems a lot more plausable to me than the 1917 the list showed, just looking at the case and comparing it to my '27 Buescher True Tone.

[soybean]

These quotes are from Jazzbug1.

"Just won off Ebay a Rudy model Bb soprano, with a serial # in the 30000 series, which puts it in the 1928-29 time of birth, according to my estimates. The later Holtons (about 1925 and later) were very nice horns: in tune, extra good plating and a brilliant tone. This quality kept up until after the war, when, to my knowledge, they stopped making professional grade saxophones."

"The Wiedoeft models came out in late 1928, and the earliest I have seen (a transition model) is serial #26643. Furthermore, I have a letter from the Holton Co. stating that my C soprano, #18319, left the factory in 1922. Check your soprano serial # and you should be able to approximate it based on these set dates. Wiedoeft played Conns and Selmers. My teacher studied under him. I have a Selmer catalog showing Rudy with Henri Selmer in the late 20s. He endorses the Selmer horns. Many of his songs show him with a straight neck C Melody, which I assume is a Conn."


Jazzbug1 Nov 15: "I have a letter sent to me in 1962 from the Holton factory that their saxophone #19xxx was built in 1922. They even gave me the month, but the letter is buried in my over 100 years of archives. Furthermore, I have a company catalog from 1928 showing the first Wiedoeft models came out in the spring of 1928. My early (transitional) Wiedoeft C Melody is #27,000. The bulk of the Holton C Melodys I have seen in person or on Ebay run from #12,000--30,000, which puts them in the 1920s (the age of the C Melody).

These ages (online) I see for Holton saxophones all advertise "1909, 1915", etc. I'm not sure Holton was building saxophones this early, so all the evidence points to the fact that the website Holton serial #s for saxophones are off by over a decade, at least when applied to the 1920s. It's quite possible that since Holton was primarily a brass instrument maker, and got into saxophones only on a large scale by about 1920, as did other smaller companies, that the saxophone serial #s may follow a different lineage than the brass, hence the odd gaps and jumps in the above list. I see Ebay ads for "Rudy Wiedoeft model, 1915". Rudy was still an unknown at this time and did not become famous until his recording of "Saxophobia" for Victor in 1922. The Wiedoeft models run from 27,000 up to around 37,000. When the economic boom ended in late 1929, Holton was near bankruptcy, and failed to pay Rudy anything for using his name on their horn, which was a Holton design Rudy had nothing to do with. The only features on the Rudy model that were not on the regular Holtons were the corkless mouthpiece slide and the low C breather key with the large cage. By the late 20s, Holton made a saxophone I personally prefer over the Conn for its brightness. The ergonomics are good for the day and the gold plated models are not uncommon. The only disapointment is that they did not offer a deluxe engraving option, as most other companies did. The early 1920s models did have intonation problems sometimes, which gave Holton a bad name and a low re-sale price, but the later 20s-30s produced fine horns. Try one. You'll like it!"


**Check this one out! Finally, some actual documented serial numbers with exact dates from the Holton company.

Jazzbug1 Nov 15: "Soybean- Thanks for stimulating me to go through my scrapbooks and letters from the past 45 years of music. It was fun and brought back many memories and friendships. I found some exact information which confirms my suspicion about the published Holton #s. To quote Senator McCarthy, "I have in my hand a letter which will incriminate the Holton serial numbers." In 1966, I received a letter from Tom Smith, who worked for Holton. He gave me two exact dates for two horns. One was a C soprano sax, #18319, which was shipped out of the factory on 11-18-1924. The other instrument was my friend's Holton cornet, #63323, which was shipped on 3-2-1928. My Wiedoeft is among the first, and it is #26648. The Wiedoeft literature I have, brochure "Birds of a Feather", introduces the horn in 1928. This all makes sense with the output of Holton saxophones in the 20s. Since the # for the cornet doesn't match the list, I suspect the list could be wrong for the 1920s as it is incorrect for a saxophone and a cornet, at least. The majority of the Wiedoefts I have seen range in the low 30,000s, which makes sense, as that would approximately correspond to 1929-30. Please feel free to use my information as you wish. Holton serial #s are quite a mystery, but using a little extrapolation, my numbers can help, assuming Holton sax production was minimal in 1919 and gradually maxed by 1929. Your 22051 might be around 1925. Since Holton was primarily a brass instrument maker, they still could have easily built 20,000 saxophones between the documented 1924 C soprano and the Wiedoefts of say 1929-30.

I have a Wiedoft alto (Gold) at #35418, a Wiedoeft Bb soprano (silver) at #34995, and the aformentioned C Melody, which is silver with gold keys. I have a Wiedoeft model brochure which lists finishes and prices. When looking at factory outputs, one must realize that within six months of the October, 1929 crash, factories were at a fraction of their 1929 rates of production, so it makes sense that the Wiedoeft models and their serial #s cover the span of 1928-30, with production dropping very quickly by mid-1930.

The only luxury the middle class American family bought in the early depression were radios. Instrument sales plummeted, and so did the C Melody. Radios sold so well that half the furniture built in the 1930s was radio cabinets. People put up with second hand furniture, but had to have that radio. Too bad they didn't feel the need for C Melody saxophones any more, as it would have developed with the other horns."


Bruce Bailey wrote this reply:
"I think that the Holton numbers are like the Conns. They have 2 seperate lists for woodwinds and brass. I had a Holton Alto that was identical to my L&H Courturier models with the LH G#/C# key shaped like an "L" which opened both pads together. This was the style of my 200,000 series L&H which I confirmed (from someone's bill of sale) to be 1928-30. The Holton was 37,xxx so I will guess it was made about 1928ish which would be consistant with Jazzbug's Wiedolft list. I am waiting on a Rudy I won on ebay that is 35,xxx."


**So after all this evidence, it's obvious that the online serial numbers for Holton saxes is wrong and should not be used. It's also pretty evident that the published lists are for brass instruments such as trumpets & trombones.

~

[geauxsax]

Great info--Now we're getting somewhere! :)

[bruce bailey]

Who is going to tell Lars Kirmser???

[soybean]

I'm not sure who Lars is, but if he's the person who puts these serial number lists together, I'll be happy to contact him.

[bruce bailey]

If you google Lars Kirmser, it will lead you do the lists. Actually a pretty nice site.

[dolf250]

Oh well;
I bid on and lost a tenor on ebay. Serial # 26986 and the neck was stamped Jan 1923. Hope that helps with something.
If anybody wants the pictures (including the date on the neck) for their files the link is http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=260182007938&ssPageName=STRK:MEDW:IT&ih=016

[geauxsax]

Oh well;
I bid on and lost a tenor on ebay. Serial # 26986 and the neck was stamped Jan 1923. Hope that helps with something.
If anybody wants the pictures (including the date on the neck) for their files the link is http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=260182007938&ssPageName=STRK:MEDW:IT&ih=016

I saw that one too, Dolf--identical to the one I bought a couple weeks ago on ebay, except for the neck. Maytbe a little better looking than my tenor, and went for slightly more than mine as well.



Also, a very nice looking Silver Rudy Wiedoeft tenor went about a month ago for over $500, and a decent lacquer 244 Tenor went for $301.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEBX:IT&item=320179603416&_trksid=p3984.cALLBUY.m311.lVI

[jazzbug1]

The patent date of 1923 actually is on the neck of the mouthpiece, which clamped onto a corkless neck. This was a nice idea by Holton, but if the neck is dropped and even slightly mis-shapped (hey-I used to date Miss Shape), it is difficult to fit the mouthpiece back on. The tenor sax pictured is from the late 1920s.

[apolaine]

Was looking for a Conn, ended up buying a lovely Holton having played several instruments and chose the one that felt right.

Elkhorn on the bell, serial 124 xxx, which I thought put it at 1938 according to Dr. Rick's charts, but are these the ones you're saying are probably wrong? Also has 214 stamped above the serial - is that a model or patent number?

Not sure of the finish. Original lacquer showing some brass spots underneath, but has more of a bronze than brass tone to the lacquer. Nickel keywork. Lovingly, completely overhauled and restored by Bruno Waltersbacher in Germany (top of the line Selmer pads, etc.).

I'm still finding out about Holtons (its got great ergos and a really beautiful tone - really comparable to some of the Conns I tried). So any pointers would be good.

[geauxsax]

Elkhorn on the bell, serial 124 xxx, which I thought put it at 1938 according to Dr. Rick's charts, but are these the ones you're saying are probably wrong? Also has 214 stamped above the serial - is that a model or patent number?


Are you sure it isn't stamped "241" instead of "214"? That's a model that would possibly be consistent with your serial number.


BTW--Let's see some pics of the mighty Holton!!!

[apolaine]

Nope, definitely 214. Unless the 1 is something else - the stamp isn't that clear on that digit.

[soybean]

serial 124 xxx, which I thought put it at 1938 according to Dr. Rick's charts, but are these the ones you're saying are probably wrong?I think all the published lists are wrong. Congratulations on your Holton. Is it alto or tenor?

[apolaine]

Did I forget that crucial part? It's a tenor.

[geauxsax]

More Holton serial number registry info, with pics:

(As listed in "Conn Stencil Holton?" thread, this horn was sold on ebay. Any SOTW member now own this one?)

--Holton "The Special" alto
--serial number B 80XX
--relaq, obvious and stated in ebay ad--not sure what orig finish was
--went for US $355.00 6 MAR
--Made when Holton was still in Chicago, before move to Elkhorn
--Rolled tone holes (anyone ever seen these on a Conn stencil, assumiung that is what this horn is?)
--2 LH bell tone holes-NOT split
--Looks like horn has front High F, but not spatula-type that Holton had on some early horns, although hard to tell in pics provided.
--No good pics of pinky cluster, but kind of visible in LH palm key pic

5061

5062

5063

5064

5065

[fred12]

My Holton is a C Mel. matte silver plate. It has a second G# key just above the F# key by the lower stack. It also has another key by the right side keys, its pivot shaft runs up the horn and lifts the second highest pad while closing the 3rd highest pad. Maybe it's some sort of F or F# key, I have trouble getting up that high. Serial no. is 7806, low pitch. Kind of quiet, poor intonation and somewhat uncomfortable but it's fun to play. Does anyone have an idea when this old girl was born?

[bruce bailey]

It is for going between middle C#>D, C>D,and B>D. Handy.

[geauxsax]

My Holton is a C Mel. matte silver plate. It has a second G# key just above the F# key by the lower stack. It also has another key by the right side keys, its pivot shaft runs up the horn and lifts the second highest pad while closing the 3rd highest pad. Maybe it's some sort of F or F# key, I have trouble getting up that high. Serial no. is 7806, low pitch. Kind of quiet, poor intonation and somewhat uncomfortable but it's fun to play. Does anyone have an idea when this old girl was born?


Not sure Fred--by serial number lists, it would be between 1909-10, but many folks have discovered that the lists are off--for my Holton (in my signature), I figure the lists are about 11 years off (for example, I believe my horn to be from around 1928 vice 1917 as lists would suggest), but I'm not sure the margin of error remained a constant amount over the years, especially as sax popularity and production grew. One thing though, Holton moved from Chicago to Elkhorn, Wisconsin in 1918, so where your sax is stamped as being made can at least give you whether it is before or after that. As far as the intonation, several makers apparently struggled with intonation in their early models, and from what I gather, mouthpieces make a big difference. Some folks make the point that earlier saxes like larger chambered pieces, without large baffles. Right or wrong, I followed that line of thinking and bought a new Link HR STM 6*, and also a Rico Graftonite A-5 (couldn't beat the price!) for my tenor. Mine is a bit flat on high C (C3?), and slightly less on the palm keys, but nothing I can't deal with. The C-mel crowd can probably suggest something that can hopefully minimize intonation problems for you. Is your C-mel in good repair?
You outta post some pics of your Holton!

[jojosax]

My Holton is Rudy Wiedoeft model Bb soprano number 32975 I think from the lates 20's it was sold on ebay with a description saying an estimated date 1919 but I think this is wrong.

My sax has :
a front F/C key
a double hole on the lowC
a G# trill key
a highD trill key (I think, I do not play it)
it plays from low bb to high F

I don't know how to post photos but here is a link with some details.

http://www.saxofan.fr/topic3965.html?highlight=

hope this help

[Wilbur Weltklang]

Elkhorn on the bell, serial 124 xxx, which I thought put it at 1938 according to Dr. Rick's charts, but are these the ones you're saying are probably wrong? Also has 214 stamped above the serial - is that a model or patent number?


I have a Holton tenor with serial 116 xxx and has 213 stamped above the serial number.
Also has 'Professional' engraved above the 'Holton' on the bell.

Picked it up rather cheaply after a test blow against Yamaha's and Selmer.

[bruce bailey]

That sounds like the ones from the 1930s which should be pretty good.

[geauxsax]

More Holton serial number registry info (info and pics collected from expired ebay ad):

Holton Collegiate 577 Tenor
s/n 336XXX
lacquered brass w/ nickel keys
sold 9 Mar for US $375
notes: this axe looked nearly new in the pics--WOW

5180

5181

5182

5183

5184

[geauxsax]

More Holton info (make/year clues collected from ebay ad):

Holton 231 Alto ad, collected from 1942 publication:
Would a "241" be a tenor from the same timeframe?
5185

[soybean]

this axe looked nearly new in the pics--WOW
It sure does look like "new/old stock". A horn that somebody bought and put under the bed for 50 years. That might be like the horn Goodsax played in when he was growing up.

[soybean]

Yes, the 241 would be the tenor from the same era. Evidentally it was followed by the 243. The only difference i can see in the 243 is the left hand pinky stack. At some point Holton moved the bell holes to the right side.

[geauxsax]

Holton 241 Tenor sold for US $1200 on ebay. This is the highest price I've yet seen for a Holton. Is the market picking up for these too?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEBTOX:IT&item=180225885763&_trksid=p3984.cTODAY.m238.lVI

[bruce bailey]

I think so. Look at the soprano prices as they are up there. I am really surprised how good my altos are.

[sonofjabba]

Holton Bb Tenor Sax Silver Plate SN 26,XXX No Neck As I Bought it Condition. One of my many current project horns.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc200/sonofjabba/Horns/holton1001.jpg

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc200/sonofjabba/Horns/holton1002.jpg

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc200/sonofjabba/Horns/horngroup005.jpg

[geauxsax]

Anyone have any idea where a Holton "Revelation", sn 117XXX falls out in the whole scheme of Holtons? Not a Collegiate, not one on the 240 series, later than Rudy's, later than (at least my) Elkhorn. It actually looks a lot like my Elkhorn just from the pic anyway. Same neck, same octave key. I'll be honest, all the Holton body tubes look the same to me too. I personally haven't noticed any large bell/small bell differences througout the range. Any info welcome.
5891

5892

[billymiller]

I just finally got re-padded a Silver Holton Rudy Eb alto serial #368XX that has been sitting around for years waiting (begging?) for attention. I've been playing an old Silver Conn C-melody for years so I knew I was likely to enjoy this horn (barely playable).

Well worth the fix. I think these horns are under rated. Sweet tone, and certainly plays circles around my student model Leblanc "Vito" from my high school days in the 70's.

P.S. this is my first post but have "lurked" many a time. Thanks for the valuable info. and service you provide!

Cheers, Billy

[geauxsax]

All right, Billy--good to hear from you. The Rudy alto sounds great. You know we want some pics now!

[bruce bailey]

The Rudy horns really are a great horn. I just discover the Holtons this year and picked up 5, 4 altos and a C soprano. Yours is only a few hundred away for my silver one. I decided to keep 2 of the gold plated ones and sell a gold plated and silver plated one on ebay soon. They seem to play like a Conn with Martin keywork. Decent intonation and some nice extra keys.

[billymiller]

5? Was this an all in one batch deal?... A C soprano... you dog!!! I want it. I'm uploading photos of the Eb right now, coming soon. Can you still find C sop. reeds now? or will you just use it with a Bb mouthpiece?

[billymiller]

Horton pride indeed geauxsax.:D
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/1311/aut0090gf9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
this is a test... more coming.

[billymiller]

It worked... O.K. Here's more... (you can click on the image for a larger view)
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/1480/aut0092ky4.th.jpg (http://img187.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aut0092ky4.jpg)
Here are the extra keys, a G to G# trill and from what I gather from playing it, a high D to D# trill.
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/6918/aut0102wy8.th.jpg (http://img187.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aut0102wy8.jpg)
This is the "button" G# key. Probably the only thing I'm having difficulty with about this horn right now but I will get used to it.
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/9079/aut0098hw5.th.jpg (http://img187.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aut0098hw5.jpg)
Here's a photo of the Conn C-melody with the Holton Rudy Eb, (the C is a bit jealous now but I can tell they secretly like each other!). As you can see, they are just about the same height, but the C has a longer bell and neck. I'm using an old Brilhart 3* mouthpiece that seems to work great with it.
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/2253/aut0097wr0.th.jpg (http://img187.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aut0097wr0.jpg)
Here's the Rudy logo for those looking for it... from what I've heard tho' I think he actually prefered Conns and Selmers. I'm thinking this must be from around 1928 from the thread. It sounds very warm. I've been playing mostly with an acoustic swing and blues group lately and the sound fits right in. Been jamming to an old Louie Jordan record with it all day. Fun!
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/2599/aut0094yb5.th.jpg (http://img187.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aut0094yb5.jpg)

Again, thanks for the info. You guys rock.

[soybean]

Here's the Rudy logo for those looking for it... from what I've heard tho' I think he actually prefered Conns and Selmers.Yeah, but Frankie Trumbauer played Holton his whole career.

[bruce bailey]

I got the C soprano here on SOTW. The Altos came from ebay or customers who had them. I am so far behind that I am selling the Rudys and one of the gold regular Holtons. I had this idea of each model of each brand in each finish but it got out of hand!

[billymiller]

Yeah, but Frankie Trumbauer played Holton his whole career.

I'm really enjoying this horn. It has a very similar sound and feel as the Conn. Thanks for the turn on to Frankie, I found a site that broadcasts Real Audio streams here http://www.redhotjazz.com/fto.html that you guys probably know about already. I had heard a little of Bix, but didn't know anything about "Tram". Or that he was who I may have been hearing. Very Cool.

Bruce, sounds like you did get a little carried away! :shock: You are gonna enjoy those horns. the C sop. sounds like a blast. I play trad. Irish on D wooden flutes as well, and that sop. would play most celtic keys (D, Em, G, Am) easily. Probably give you a klezmer/Irish weird crossover sound to try Celtic tunes with it, but it would be in key with the same fingering!

Cheers

[billymiller]

I can't afford it now, but give me a ring if you ever decide to unload the C sop. Bruce.
billymiller at swva dot net.

[BernieO]

Hi all.

1947 alto 232. serial No. 173XXX, original case and Holton mouthpiece.

The history of this one is it was bought for me by my parents for $50.00 in the mid sixties about a year after I started high school. The pads were a bit shot I think and I eventually broke a spring or two but not before it had been carted on a few camping trips into the blue mountains of NSW. It was borrowed by a 'friend' who hung it on a wall for a bit and then it sat in a cupboard until 2005 when I decided at the age of 52 to play the sax again and had it repadded. It's been three years of fun and I've just popped it in for a service.

What can I say as a 'very' amateur musician. It plays well, intonation spot on, big sound, more like a tenor in some respects, the action could be a little better especially coming down the octave from 'D' to 'C'. All in all a very nice instrument, particularly since I've owned it for around two thirds of its 60 years; and it's built like a tank!

If anyone is interested I'll post some pics when it is back from the service.

[geauxsax]

Hi all.

1947 alto 232. serial No. 173XXX, original case and Holton mouthpiece.

The history of this one is it was bought for me by my parents for $50.00 in the mid sixties about a year after I started high school. The pads were a bit shot I think and I eventually broke a spring or two but not before it had been carted on a few camping trips into the blue mountains of NSW. It was borrowed by a 'friend' who hung it on a wall for a bit and then it sat in a cupboard until 2005 when I decided at the age of 52 to play the sax again and had it repadded. It's been three years of fun and I've just popped it in for a service.

What can I say as a 'very' amateur musician. It plays well, intonation spot on, big sound, more like a tenor in some respects, the action could be a little better especially coming down the octave from 'D' to 'C'. All in all a very nice instrument, particularly since I've owned it for around two thirds of its 60 years; and it's built like a tank!

If anyone is interested I'll post some pics when it is back from the service.

Definitely post some pics Bernie, and great to hear about your Holton!

[masonmjs]

Anyone have any idea where a Holton "Revelation", sn 117XXX falls out in the whole scheme of Holtons? Not a Collegiate, not one on the 240 series, later than Rudy's, later than (at least my) Elkhorn. It actually looks a lot like my Elkhorn just from the pic anyway. Same neck, same octave key. I'll be honest, all the Holton body tubes look the same to me too. I personally haven't noticed any large bell/small bell differences througout the range. Any info welcome.
5891

5892


Hey geauxsax - did you ever find any information on this tenor ??, I noticed it is on Ebay now with a circa 1960 timeline, is that best guess or accurate info, it seems a mile away from the other dates for this serial number range I have been reading here (about mid-thirties for 118xxx).

If it's your horn on Ebay right now, I would appreciate as much information as you can give me regarding playing condition right now, I may well bid on it if I could get reliable info from a fellow SOTW member. Not much time left so I'm hoping you see this today/tonight.

Thanks
Mike

[geauxsax]

Mike,
I never did find anything about this sax, and it isn't mine. I just saw it on ebay the last time it was up. It didn't sell for the opening bid (like $250 or so). I think it's a good price on an old American tenor. Heck--stencils sell for more than that. I also paid more than that for my much older Elkhorn, and love it. The Revelation looks a lot like my Elkhorn, but with updated ergos.

[BernieO]

Back from the shop and good as new!

[Wilbur Weltklang]

Well due to being impressed with my '37 Holton tenor, I've been seeking an alto version to use as a work-horse over the 5 digit Selmer VI I have.
Finally scored this one for a knock-down $158.50. Stripped all the hardware off. Cleaned it up a bit and added a few corks here and there and Voila!! Plays beautifully and so similar to the VI it's incredible.

[soybean]

Thanks for the turn on to Frankie… I had heard a little of Bix, but didn't know anything about "Tram". Or that he was who I may have been hearing.Not to get too far off-topic, but since this is my thread ;), i can tell you that there is a really good three-CD set of Tram. I bought volume 2 it's just great. His solos on the Holton C-mel are little gems and there's also some great bass sax playing by Adrian Rollini. Here's a link:
http://www.amazon.com/Frank-Trumbauers-Legacy-American-1923-1929/dp/B000005DZE/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1214697041&sr=1-9

[soybean]

Cover photo of Vol 3:

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/Tramvol3jpg.jpg

[petersaxplayer]

hi, i'm new to the saxophone. I just inherited a saxophone and i wanted to know what year was it made and if it's good. It says HOLTON and the only s/n i could find was this 036679 and it says JAPAN below that. So if you guys could help me i'd really appreciate it. Thanks!!

[Son of Bob]

Just to add some info to the compilation. I have owned 2 Holton saxes, a tenor and an alto, and both were virtually the same, so I'll list their features together. The alto is 31760 and the tenor is 26937.

silver plate (matte with shiny keys and an area on the bell where it says Frank Holton, Elkhorn, Wis.)
forked Eb
trill keys for G# and D#
NO extra vent key near low C
front F (no pearl there, sort of tear drop shaped)
Bell keys on opposite sides

The alto has its original mouthpiece (the kind with the tightening screw and no cork on the neck) in original condition. The mpc is marked "Pat. Applied for" and "Pat. Jan. 1923." It is metal coated with hard rubber. I assume the lig and cap are original, but they are unmarked.
The alto also has a tool marked Holton that is a screwdriver and pad-prick? spring tool?

I just got the alto, and haven't played it but once, but it has a nice tone and very workable ergonomics.

[soybean]

I just inherited a saxophone… It says HOLTON and the only s/n i could find was this 036679 and it says JAPAN below that.Sorry, i don't know anything about Japanese Holtons. As a guess, it's probably from the late 1960s or early 1970s. Not made by the famous USA Holton factory.

[soybean]

Plays beautifully and so similar to the VI it's incredible.Mark, are you still enjoying the Holton alto? Please tell us the serial number and model number. Interesting that you find it comparable to the Mk VI.

[jazzbug1]

I just bought a Holton Tenor (a rare Wiedoeft tenor) off Ebay. I will re-pad it and report on it. The pictures are excellent, with no wear even on the thumbrest. If it is like my alto, it will have the big sound of a Chu Berry Conn, with added brightness in the top end. There is a puzzler on Ebay, #170246839879, which looks like a C Melody. It is serial #26551, which according to my Holton documents, was built in the spring of 1928. Oddly, there is an old note with the horn dating it to 1923. The horn has the features of 1923, as by 1928 they had the high F key. This horn does nothave the alt. F. Furthermore, I have seen some Holtons from 1923-24 with dark green plastic key touches instead of the pearl. These green touches are present in the EBay photos, which further date the horn to 1923. I think the touches were originally black, but those early plastics deteriorated in color (in this case to green) and broke easily, as this specimen has a few touches missing. Holton was always trying to be different in their saxes. What makes this EBay listing crazy is that there is a starting price of $4800! It's worth $150. I suspect the serial # to be 16551 and not 26551. The bum rap given to Holtons has kept the price down so the knowlegeable few can buy great horns.

[bruce bailey]

The one for $4,800 (if it is the one in Florida) looks to be an alto. He claims it is sterling silver but is way off on the price. I think 1923 is the closer year. I got out my gold plated Rudy Alto to photo it to sell and it is really a nice horn. Holtons are much better than we all thought.

[jazzbug1]

On closer look, it looks altoish. I also see in the photos, a loose alt. F key and G# trill key laying on the accessory box. Maybe the serial # is correct, but the penciled in date is not. Holtons did NOT have alt. F in 1923. These non-Rudy altos usually sell for less than a C Melody. I Remember when C Melodys and Albert clarinets could be had for $10-15.00 only ten years ago where I live. I know of few players, so I guess they are falling into collections of people with a hoarding disorder, which is common amongst males over fifty, like some of us.

[bruce bailey]

Both of my non-Rudy altos have the front F but it is not a pearl and looks like a current Yana.

[soybean]

I just bought a Holton Tenor (a rare Wiedoeft tenor) off Ebay.So you're the one! I was watching that but didn't bid on it. Very interesting horn. Please report when you get 'er fixed up.

[bruce bailey]

I was watching that one too!

[geauxsax]

So you're the one! I was watching that but didn't bid on it. Very interesting horn. Please report when you get 'er fixed up.

Ditto! I had made up my mind to buy the next nice looking Rudy Tenor I saw on ebay, but managed to let this one get away. Nice price, and good on you, Jazzbug--I hope she plays as good as she looks!

[LaPorte]

Hi everybody,

I'm new here and got some good info from this site. The reconstruction of the Holton serial number list belongs to my historical interests, too.

Frank Holton began producing saxophones in Chicago (Revelation model) probably 1917 (Reference:Leblanc). The production in Elkhorn began spring (prob. April 1918; Ref.: Holton Loyalists). Here are the serial numbers from following early 'pre-Elkhorn' alto-saxophones, engraving:"Made by Frank Holton Co Chicago", I've documented:

# 639
# 759 (in my collection)
# 1189

Felix

[jazzbug1]

You have the very first Holton saxophones. Is the plating good, as I've seen many in the 5,000-10,000 range where the plating was very thin and worn in spots that weren't even touch zones. Please check your horns with a tuner. Let's see if the intonation is OK. Don't expect spot-on with early horns, but at least 20 cycles tolerance is OK. I'm curious, as being a big Holton fan (maybe because they are so cheap!) I'd like some feedback on your horns, as I have no experience with very early one. THANKS.

[jazzbug1]

I am expecting the Rudy tenor to arrive in a few days. I will re-pad, set it up, and see how it plays. I strongly suspect that it will equal my 1941 Conn 10M, in which case, the Conn, in top playing shape with 85% original lacquer, will go on Ebay. The 10M was played by a late friend who toured with Les Brown and the Mal Hallet bands in the 1940s.
I will then have all the Wiedoefts except the very rare baritone, which I have played, but it is not quite the match of my 1927 Conn "Chu Berry" model. I will save the $$ in my quest for a vitage sopranino. Then I will have all the horns I have ever lusted for, pass away out of a lack of challenge, and become a legend in my backyard.

[soybean]

Then I will have all the horns I have ever lusted for, pass away out of a lack of challenge, and become a legend in my backyard.LOL:):D

[soybean]

Frank Holton began producing saxophones in Chicago (Revelation model) probably 1917 (Reference:Leblanc). The production in Elkhorn began spring (prob. April 1918; Ref.:Holton Loyalists). Here are the serial numbers from following early 'pre-Elkhorn' alto-saxophones, engraving:"Made by Frank Holton Co Chicago", I've documented:

# 639
# 759 (in my collection)
# 1189Very interesting. Thanks for adding the numbers and welcome to Sax on the Web!

I had to search for Holton Loyalist. It's a website dedicated to… Holton. It seems to be primarily focused on brass, but there is a sax area. They are looking for old catalogs and photos. Jazzbug, you should send them some pics of your Rudys.:D

[LaPorte]

Originally Posted by jazzbug1:
You have the very first Holton saxophones. Is the plating good, as I've seen many in the 5,000-10,000 range where the plating was very thin and worn in spots that weren't even touch zones. Please check your horns with a tuner. Let's see if the intonation is OK. Don't expect spot-on with early horns, but at least 20 cycles tolerance is OK. I'm curious, as being a big Holton fan (maybe because they are so cheap!) I'd like some feedback on your horns, as I have no experience with very early one. THANKS.

Only the one with SN #759 is in my collection, the two others were listed on ebay recently (#1189) and one year ago (#639). The numbers could clearly be identified by the added Fotos.

My Chicago made Holton-alto needs professional overhaul including dent removal and post-resoldering. The silver plating is solid and 100%, even in touch zones. The only differences to the early Elkhorn-made ones are the following:

1. Engraving "Chicago" instead of "Elkhorn" (of course)
2. No mother-of-pearl inlays
3. Front-F key (surprising!), comparable to the Revelations from the later twenties

All other application is the same including the additional G/G# and C/D keys.

Felix

[jazzbug1]

I've never seen an early Holton with a front F key. They must have discontinued the idea soon after and then began adding it again in the mid 20s, unless it is a carefully soldered later addition, which is not hard to do. Does your early Holton have the C to D trill key protruding on the right near the side Bb and side C? Frankie Trumbauer preferred Holton. Rudy Wiedoeft preferred the Selmer, as it was a smaller bore and had much more of a concert sound. Selmer continued this practice until the Balanced Action of the mid 30s.

[LaPorte]

I've never seen an early Holton with a front F key. They must have discontinued the idea soon after and then began adding it again in the mid 20s, unless it is a carefully soldered later addition, which is not hard to do. Does your early Holton have the C to D trill key protruding on the right near the side Bb and side C? Frankie Trumbauer preferred Holton. Rudy Wiedoeft preferred the Selmer, as it was a smaller bore and had much more of a concert sound. Selmer continued this practice until the Balanced Action of the mid 30s.

You are right, the early Elkhorn-made Holton's don't have the front F Key as far as I could see. My early Chicago made Holton has this key and this was rather surprising to me. I'm shure it is original. I hope I can take a foto and get it here sometimes. It looks identical to the Front F mechanic of the later horns (similiar to clarinets, beginning ca. 1926).

Yes, my early Holton has this typical C to D trill key near the side keys you mentioned.

Thank you

Felix

Thank you, too giving us the only exact reference with your c-sopranosax (18319) which was shipped out 11-18-1924.
Counting from the beginning of 1918 (evt. late 1917) until the end of 1924 we have a medium annual output of nearly 2,650. My rating of the yearly production from 1918 to 1928 was ca. 3,000/year.

[LaPorte]

Very interesting. Thanks for adding the numbers and welcome to Sax on the Web!

Thank you for welcoming me on SOTW !:)

Felix

[LaPorte]

Here is a list of Holton-models from 1916 to 1940:

BEAUFORT **(stencil, made by Couesnon; ca. 1916/1917; rare): split bell, keygards with forged ends (looks like duck feet)

REVELATION-model, series Ia (Chicago 1917/18; rare): split bell, soldered toneholes, front F key, additional trill keys.

REVELATION-model, series Ib (Elkhorn, spring 1918 - ca. 1930/partly longer?):
Production continued in Elkhorn, Wisconsin, front F key from ca. 1926, early ones without front F key.

RUDY WIEDOEFT model (ca.1925/28 - 1930/31..) B and Bb left side, corkless neck, round g#-key with mother of pearl-inlay, additional low C vent-key. From the beginning thirties without the "Rudy Wiedoeft model"- engraving.

COLLEGIATE-series I* (1928/29/30?, rare) split bell, solid and bevelled (type: LaPorte, not Martin-style) soldered-on tone chimneys , L-shaped C#-G#-key
Partly the production was sold under the tradename "Beaufort American" Production ended 1929in LaPorte; continued in Elkhorn ca. 1930?. Some "Beaufort American's" were built by Conn!

REVELATION series II, (ca. 1930, very rare) split bell, engraving like Revelation I, new proportions, wider bore, new application, spatula keys like RUDY WIEDOEFT model, no front F, made in Elkhorn.

COLLEGIATE series IIa* (from beginning thirties..): B and Bb left side, Corpus like Revelation II, keys only the 'needed', no front F

REVELATION series III (ca. 1934/35), rare: B and Bb left side; additional engraving: "REVELATION" (to be continued..)

COLLEGIATE series IIb* ca.1935-1941, like IIa, including front F! (Tenor stencilled by Gretsch 15xxx, first digit dropped ?! - 115xxx)

RESO-TONE series 204 (1935-38; rare) Text of the original ad:

"This is a new Holton Reso-Tone Alto Saxophone, built upon new proportions and with new tonal quality, new mouthpipe, new octave key, new keygards and new thumb rest. A completely new instrument that will set new standard in saxophone construction and tone."

THE SPECIAL** (beginning forties; stencil made by Couesnon, France; rare)

I have compiled this list in german and translated it for SOTW. Please let me know, if you have additional model-info find mistakes or issues needing discussion.

* means: the serial numbers partly follow a different line of numbers
** means: the serial numbers follow a completely different line of numbers


Felix

[bruce bailey]

I had one that was not like others. It was an alto in about the 37,000 series and it ws the same horn that Lyon & Healy sold under the Courturier name. These had the low C# lever hooked into the G# lever in an L shape. I think it would be from the 1928 era. It is possible that with the introduction of the Rudy models, they purchased some stenciled Holton Collegiate to add to the line.
The town where these were built by Courturier was LaPorte Indiana. Strange that your username is the same!!!

[soybean]

From the beginning thirties without the "Rudy Wiedoeft model"- engraving.This list is great. Are the later Wiedoeft models built differently (besides the lack of engraving)?

There are some other models. Alto 230 series (230, 231, 232) & Tenor 240 series (241, 242, etc.) I've also heard of a tenor model 475 and 204. At some point, the Holton name was used on Japanese made saxophones. I'm guessing this was in the late 1960s to the 1970s. If anyone has an original receipt or photo of one of these Holtons, please let us know.

[geauxsax]

This list is great. Are the later Wiedoeft models built differently (besides the lack of engraving)?

There are some other models. Alto 230 series (230, 231, 232) & Tenor 240 series (241, 242, etc.) I've also heard of a tenor model 475 and 204. At some point, the Holton name was used on Japanese made saxophones. I'm guessing this was in the late 1960s to the 1970s. If anyone has an original receipt or photo of one of these Holtons, please let us know.


What about the Collegiate--wasn't the tenor a model 566 or something. Collegiates really get beat up on the fourm, but what differences did they have from the 240 series (that seem to get fairly good press--one even sold for $1200 a few months ago)? Are the collegiates just old Elkhorns with updated keywork and lacquer?

PS--glad to see the Holton forum having some action!

[LaPorte]

I had one that was not like others. It was an alto in about the 37,000 series and it ws the same horn that Lyon & Healy sold under the Courturier name. These had the low C# lever hooked into the G# lever in an L shape. I think it would be from the 1928 era. It is possible that with the introduction of the Rudy models, they purchased some stenciled Holton Collegiate to add to the line.
The town where these were built by Courturier was LaPorte Indiana. Strange that your username is the same!!!

The model you describe belongs to the early Collegiate I, made in LaPorte. Here you give us a very good description of the characteristic L-shaped C#/G#-lever and I agree that your Alto saxophone was made in 1928. Thanks to the great researches of Steve Mumford (he spent many hours in the archives of LaPorte) we do know, that Frank Holton purchased the plant in LaPorte April 1928 from Lyon&Healy (former E.A.Couturier) and this was the 'birthday' of the first COLLEGIATE saxophone!
The engraving says: "COLLEGIATE * Made BY * Frank Holton&Co * Elkhorn * WIS.'. What it says is all true: Made by Frank Holton, he was the new owner of the production in LaPorte and Elkhorn WIS was the residence of his firm since 1918. So your Collegiate SN 37xxx is no stencil! My (LaPorte made) COLLEGIATE has the SN 39224 and was made probably 1929.

I think we have little chance to get more exact references like jazzbug1 gave us. What we could do imo. is to 'identify' (what I call) 'small' or 'approximative references'. That means e.g., we have a relatively exact date (here: April 1928) from a reliable source (Steve Mumford). What we have to do then is: to find an example (here: COLLEGIATE like described) with a relatively low serial number, as low as could be found. I think this applies especially to your Collegiate saxophone #37xxx, because its the lowest number, which I coud find until now.

Thank you, bruce bailey, for your informative postings to the subjects Lyon&Healy and Holton during the last years!

My username: Since I have my Lyon&Healy Couturier model
as my 'first' playing horn (alto), I can't stop researching the background of such great sounding horns, which came out of the LaPorte factory between 1922 and 1929. And this is part of the Holton history, too. Frank Holton (playing trombone) and Ernst Albert Couturier (great performer on cornet) were friends (Collegiate?!) together they created fantastic Horns (brass). Could the saxophone community accept that some of the best sounding saxophones were created by 'brass'-men?

Felix

[LaPorte]

This list is great. Are the later Wiedoeft models built differently (besides the lack of engraving)?

There are some other models. Alto 230 series (230, 231, 232) & Tenor 240 series (241, 242, etc.) I've also heard of a tenor model 475 and 204. At some point, the Holton name was used on Japanese made saxophones. I'm guessing this was in the late 1960s to the 1970s. If anyone has an original receipt or photo of one of these Holtons, please let us know.

After the contract with Rudy Wiedoeft has ended, the model was built without any changes or differences except the additional engraving. This is what I could see from good pictures of one alto saxophone with a SN in the 40-thousands. Sorry, I missed documentating that. I'm shure there will be another one which we could integrate in our historical research.

Originally my focus listing Holton models were the years 1917 until the beginning thirties, (which is sufficient for reconstructing the Holton serial numbers). Later I extended my list until the beginning 40-ies with the occurance of drawn instead of soldered toneholes (ca. 1940-1942). I've little knowlege of the later 'three-digit-models'. The first of them (201.. 204..) occured in the late thirties and I shall integrate them in the next update of the Holton model list. I feel that there is some additional info needed, before I can do this.

Felix

[LaPorte]

Don't know how this ":D" could be happened at the beginning of my posting #84?! I did not want to place it there and I couldn't remove it by editing! :? Oh, possibly I got the wrong rubric, when I choosed it for my last sentence. Sorry, I'm afraid that cannot be changed! :cry: Does anyone know help?

Felix

[bruce bailey]

Wow, great story about LaPorte! I have 2 L&H altos that look exactly like the Holton 37,xxx that I had:
Gold plated:http://www.flickr.com/photos/12157552@N02/tags/lhaltog/show/
Silver plated:http://www.flickr.com/photos/12157552@N02/tags/lhaltos/show/
Notice the palm keys are interlocking where the Eb also opens the D and the F opens all three. The gold one has the double hinged neck key. These are really undervalued horns. I think I paid $450 for the gold and about $250 for the silver. Some day I may get them cleaned and working!

[bruce bailey]

Forgot to add a few photos comparing a "standard" Holton with a Rudy:
Standard burnished gold plate:http://www.flickr.com/photos/12157552@N02/tags/holtongold/show/
Rudy burnished gold Plate: http://www.flickr.com/photos/12157552@N02/tags/holtonrudygold/show/

[jazzbug1]

Here are some changes I have observed in Holtons:
1. My Rudy C melody (26000) is among the first, as they neatly installed a "do-nut" inside the low C tone hole to lessen it's size to allow for that little breather key. Furthermore, it has bumper posts under the palm keys. The do-nut was an indication that the very first Rudys from the Sping of 1928 were standard Holtons off the regular production. The bumper posts disappeared soon after, with the stops placed on the bottom of the palm keys, as with the Conns.
2. I have seen Rudys on EBay up to about #37000, which might be around 1931-32, when it appears the production stopped. Rudy was no longer as famous and the horns cost more.
3. That nifty high C-D trill key continued from the teens until the early 30s.
4. The low C breather key continued on regular Holtons for another year or so, as perhaps there were Rudy shells to be used up and the tone holes for the breather key were alreay on the horns.
5. I have seen pictures on EBay of late 30s tenors and altos with rolled tone holes and a very beautifully crafted cover on the low B-Bb keys. These must be impressive horns and I would love to try one. They rarely come up, as production must have been low once the Conn 10M and 6M became so dominant.
6. Side note: I restored a Courtier C Melody and it was a beautiful sounding horn, sounding much like my Rudy. Courtier made many horns for Wurlitzer and they can be spotted by looking at the joint rings on the bow: the rings have 3 or more decorative grooves on them. These are great players. I'd love to try a Coutier tenor or alto.

[LaPorte]

Two additions:

1. I've checked the Chicago made Holton #1189. It has the front F key as well as my #759.

2. 'Rudy Wiedoft model' without corresponding engraving. Feb 20, 2008 I've noted from ebay item 300 200 235 651: This alto saxophone is a Rudy Wiedoeft model in every detail except engraving. SN# Eb*40145*LP. Sorry, no fotos available anymore.

Felix

[jazzbug1]

40,000 is only a few thousand past the last Rudy I have seen, so that makes sense. Probably a third or half of the altos sold by Holton in 1928-31 were Rudys, as they are very common. They must have made many chassis with the low C breather key, which were then sold as regular Holtons. Sort of like the Conns changing from the "Chu Berry" to the 6M, which took 3 years of horns with some features of each. The C melodys, tenors, and baritone Rudy models are very unusual. Its to our advantage that their reputation is undeservedly low, as these are great horns at a bargain price. My Wiedoeft alto is noticeably more brilliant than a comparable Conn and my C melody has a beautiful resonance. You can hear the C on You Tube. Just put in "jazzbug1"

[LaPorte]

More Holton serial number registry info, with pics:

(As listed in "Conn Stencil Holton?" thread, this horn was sold on ebay. Any SOTW member now own this one?)

Yes. This one is with me now.

Engraving: "The Special" * HOLTON * CHICAGO * USA
SN #B8031, written beneath low D

I gave her new pads in the left hand region and after some adjustments I've let her choose a mouthpiece. She decided for a Vito II LeBlanc (reed:Vandoren Java 2,5), a mpc of little value. With it she really sings, (better than together with a Yana, Link, Vandoren, Brilhart etc.). The tone is beautiful, rich, versatile with easy blowing altissimo, good intonation, easy to play, 'modern' feeling.

Who made the alto? When was it made? Why did Holton sell a stencil? Why does it say Chicago instead of Elkhorn? I hope I find the time to answer tomorrow, otherwise beginning September.

Felix

[soybean]

Who made the alto? When was it made? Why did Holton sell a stencil? Why does it say Chicago instead of Elkhorn? I hope I find the time to answer tomorrow, otherwise beginning September.Thanks Felix for all the information you have added to this Holton thread. I am actually quite happy with how this has progressed. We are going to have the basis for making an accurate chart of Holton serial numbers with approximate years and features.:)

[jazzbug1]

I see a new listing on EBay for a Rudy model C Melody (these are quite rare) and the serial # is even earlier than mine. It is #25444, so in the Spring of 1928 (when the model was introduced) this horn was put together. I would think that this one and mine might have been made a month earlier, as I imagine the serial number assignment to the chassis would have a lead time of a few weeks (?) until the horn is shipped. Here is a serial number with some approximate documentation, as my brochure introducing the Rudy model is printed "March, 1928".

[geauxsax]

Added to serial number registry:

Big Holton Bari spied on ebay, model 270 I believe (is that contemporary to 230 altos and 240 tenors?)

sn 130,6XX

http://cgi.ebay.com/HOLTON-Silver-BAIRTONE-SAXOPHONE-W-CASE_W0QQitemZ270268000432QQihZ017QQcategoryZ16233 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[hakukani]

I just rescued from the bowels of band storage a, Holton Cmel in Matte silver, made in Elkhorn, Wis. with a serial 13,xxx. It has split bell keys, the two trill keys, and no extra vent by the C#, nor a front F. It appears to be the original case, but the case is missing a handle.

It does have what appears to be the original mouthpiece with a heavy metal mp cap and endcap, and a reed box with Gold Crown reeds, marked in pen as C melody sax Bb tenor sax. There are the remains of one of the reeds in the box (a corner is chopped off). The back of the reed says 'This is a Genuine Gold Crown Reed', with an indecipherable set of text beneath. The reed is about an Eighth inch longer than an alto reed, and a bit shorter than a modern tenor reed.

I gave it a toot, and it plays pretty well, with a somewhat thin tone. The mouthpiece fits, but there is no cork. It appears someone wrapped the neck with beeswaxed line or perhaps it's dental floss, and the key with the bis key is missing a spring.

[geauxsax]

I just rescued from the bowels of band storage a, Holton Cmel in Matte silver, made in Elkhorn, Wis. with a serial 13,xxx. It has split bell keys, the two trill keys, and no extra vent by the C#, nor a front F. It appears to be the original case, but the case is missing a handle.

It does have what appears to be the original mouthpiece with a heavy metal mp cap and endcap, and a reed box with Gold Crown reeds, marked in pen as C melody sax Bb tenor sax. There are the remains of one of the reeds in the box (a corner is chopped off). The back of the reed says 'This is a Genuine Gold Crown Reed', with an indecipherable set of text beneath. The reed is about an Eighth inch longer than an alto reed, and a bit shorter than a modern tenor reed.

I gave it a toot, and it plays pretty well, with a somewhat thin tone. The mouthpiece fits, but there is no cork. It appears someone wrapped the neck with beeswaxed line or perhaps it's dental floss, and the key with the bis key is missing a spring.


All right, Hak--welcome to Holtonland!

[hakukani]

All right, Hak--welcome to Holtonland!

Did I mention there are NO dents or dings?:)

[soybean]

Did I mention there are NO dents or dings?:)No dents or dings is actually a lot more common than you think with C-mels. Most of them never left the parlor! The thin sound might be the small C-mel bore or the mouthpiece. Those vintage pieces were pretty soft sounding in most cases. Try it with a modern alto piece or tenor piece pushed all the way on the cork (or floss in your case). On my Holton C-mel, an alto mouthpiece works the best. However, on most of the C-melody saxes I've played, a tenor mpc works better.

[soybean]

There's a Holton alto on eBay now with a ridiculous price of $2800. It will never sell it at that price, but there is an interesting letter from the Holton company in the case. The seller says it's from 1923, but i'm not convinced. I emailed them for more information, but got a terse reply. This seems like a later alto… possibly 1925 or 26. serial #26551.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=170255544428&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=007

[bruce bailey]

He had it up before at $4,800 BIN. Since he is nearby, I contacted him and he insisted that it is sterling silver. It is worth about $300 as-is.

[soybean]

Bruce, that is hilarious. People like that deserve to pay extra ebay "stupidity" fees. Does he actually think it is solid silver?

If you find yourself walking by the shop, see if he'll let you have a look at that letter in the case. It may have some dating information. However, if it's just a form letter, it probably won't be much help.

[mad-dog]

Bruce, that is hilarious. People like that deserve to pay extra ebay "stupidity" fees. Does he actually think it is solid silver?



But it comes with a "note tightening tool"! I need one of those. Maybe then I can get a better price for the similar Holton alto (in better shape than this one) that I bought for $55.

[LaPorte]

I see a new listing on EBay for a Rudy model C Melody (these are quite rare) and the serial # is even earlier than mine. It is #25444, so in the Spring of 1928 (when the model was introduced) this horn was put together. I would think that this one and mine might have been made a month earlier, as I imagine the serial number assignment to the chassis would have a lead time of a few weeks (?) until the horn is shipped. Here is a serial number with some approximate documentation, as my brochure introducing the Rudy model is printed "March, 1928".

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce bailey View Post
"I had one that was not like others. It was an alto in about the 37,000 series ... I think it would be from the 1928 era. ..."

I think we need to have a closer look at the serials of the mid and late twenties. I begin with some serial numbers currently available of the Wiedoeft model:

C-mel.
16251 'Pre-Rudy Wiedoeft' model
20058 (!) (centrostudimusicali.it)
20xxx (!) (I try to confirm this by e-mail contact with the owner)
25444
26648

Soprano
32938
34xxx
34995
36077

Alto
34085
34384
34765
34996
35210
35418
35664
35814
35947
36480
36xxx
36979
37xxx
37090
37172
38475

Tenor
32704 'Pre-Rudy Wiedoeft'
34507
38xxx

Bariton
34610
34667

All numbers of the C-melody's (Rudy Wiedoeft!) begin with a "2", all other begin with a "3". My conclusion: We have to differenciate between C-melody and the rest of the Wiedoeft-family! Consider that the C-melody's listed above have bumper posts under the LH palm keys, which generally disappeared in the mid-twentys.

Felix

[soybean]

Felix this is valuable new information. I feel like we may be on the way to cracking the code! By the way, my C-melody is 22051 (not a Wiedoeft) and has the bumper post.

From your list we can see that the second number is usually an even number, but not always since there is a 5 and a 7.


[posted next day]

Well, it was nice while it lasted. A Holton alto just showed up on ebay with the serial 23648. So most of the numbers starting with a 2 are C-melody saxes, but not all. The mystery continues…

photos of the alto in question.
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/3f2e_3.jpg
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/2e90_3.jpg



http://cgi.ebay.com/1920s-Frank-Holton-Alto-Saxophone-Satin-Finish_W0QQitemZ330268900744QQcmdZViewItem?hash=it em330268900744&_trkparms=39%3A1|66%3A3|65%3A10|240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

[LaPorte]

Well, it was nice while it lasted. A Holton alto just showed up on ebay with the serial 23648. So most of the numbers starting with a 2 are C-melody saxes, but not all. The mystery continues…

The alto shown here is a Revelation model, no Wiedoeft. Holton started with the Revelation 1917 in Chicago with SN# 1, from spring 1918 in Elkhorn with a Number >ca.1,200.

Shure, there could be a R.Wiedoeft alto with a SN beginning with a 2 (possibly late 2x,xxx) and a R.W. C-melody beginning with a 3. That wouldn't seriously question my conclusion, which says that the R.W. C-melody was introduced significantly earlier than the rest of the Rudy Wiedoeft line. So bruce bailey could be right stating that a SN# 37xxx was made in 1928 and jazzbug1 could be right too when he claims that the R.W.model was introduced spring 1928, except the C-melody (which obviously was introduced about 3 years earlier)!

The Revelation model is not considered here.

Felix

[soybean]

Oh, I see. I thought you were saying that all the Holton C-melody started with a 2. So the Wiedoeft saxes had their own set of serial numbers?

[LaPorte]

Oh, I see. I thought you were saying that all the Holton C-melody started with a 2. So the Wiedoeft saxes had their own set of serial numbers?

Revelation, Wiedoeft model and CollegiateI had the same or a common set of serial numbers except very, very rare saxphones (CollegiateI) which were stamped by the Lyon&Healy company just when the production in LaPorte was sold to Frank Holton April 1928. These numbers could be recognised by a six digit 202xxx, written in a straight line, not in an arc! CollegiateII started with an own set of numbers, later (ca.1931/32) they were integrated in the main line of saxophone serial numbers. I'll come back to this topic.

Felix

[LaPorte]

except very, very rare saxphones which were stamped by the Lyon&Healy company just when the production was sold to Frank Holton April 1928. These numbers could be recognised by a six digit 202xxx, written in a straight line, not in an arc!

Here it is (coincidence?!):

http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-Bb-COLLEGIATE-SOPRANO-SAX-BY-FRANK-HOLTON-LOOK_W0QQitemZ180285445680QQihZ008QQcategoryZ16203 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

A real rare find and reference too (SN#201849 for dating the Lyon&Healy SN##)!

made by Frank Holton ca. April 1928 in LaPorte, application and serial number: Lyon &Healy, the saxophone was originally created by Ernst Albert Couturier!

Felix

[bruce bailey]

I just sold a L&H soprano just like that and the serial number was in about the same range. I think it was within 50 numbers. It had all the extra keys like the Holton. Should be a good horn.
I just finished my Holton C soprano keyed to high F and so far I would say it is the best C soprano I have ever played. A bit flat on B2 and C2 but not really any worse than any other 20s horn. I am selling off several Holtons and was going to include it but I think I will hang on to it for a while!!!

[LaPorte]

I just sold a L&H soprano just like that and the serial number was in about the same range.

Right, there is no difference except the engraving. Additional info: After purchasing the Lyon&Healy plant in LaPorte by Fank Holton the production of saxophones under the Lyon&Healy brand didn't stop. The output was indeed higher than Holton's 'Collegiate', a real curiosity! The L&H numbers went until 203xxx (ca. 40xxx on the Collegiate's) when the doors were closed forever in 1929.

So we have a relatively small period of time the LaPorte made Collegiates were built. Their serial numbers (Holton-line!) give important indications for the Holton serial number reconstruction. On these (and several other) grounds (e.g.) a R.W. C-melody with a number early or mid 20xxx can't be made in 1928. The earliest ones were made ca. 1925 based on the C-soprano reference from jazzbug 1.

It had all the extra keys like the Holton.

'Extra keys' on LaPorte made saxophones?

Felix

[bruce bailey]

Extra keys would be the L shaped G#>C# pinky and the little tangs under the palm keys to connect them. The Eb opens the D, the F opens the Eb.

[soybean]

Bruce, please post photos of the C soprano if you have some.

[bruce bailey]

Give me a few weeks.....kind of behind here with school starting.

[soybean]

No pressure, man. Just curious.

[bruce bailey]

I finally opened up some cases and got the serial numbers of Holtons I now have. There was the Courturier one I sold in the 37,000 range plus the following:
C soprano to high F......16741
Satin Gold Alto............20395
Burnished Gold Alto......27096
Burnished Gold Rudy Alto 38475 R

The Altos all have the usual extra keys. Only the Rudy has the extra low C pad and tunable neck. Everything except the C soprano is for sale.

[LaPorte]

I've adapted the SN# of the 'Rudy' to the list above. Thank you, bruce bailey!

Felix

[bruce bailey]

Notice how the altos are in the 20,xxx range.

[LaPorte]

Who made the alto? When was it made? Why did Holton sell a stencil? Why does it say Chicago instead of Elkhorn?

I owe you the answers.

1. The saxophone was made by Couesnon, which can undoubtfully be recognised by a special design of the joint rings and some more details.

2. The catalogue "Manufacture Generale d'instrument de musique COUESNON. Catalogue illustre 1934, Paris 1934." distinguishes 4 models (see the corresponding thread!): A,B,C and Monopole/Conservatoire. Each model had probably his own set of numbers. Supposing a yearly output of 1,000 per year and model a possible year of manufacture is around 1942. This would correspond to the layout of the mechanic and design. This saxophone is a "B"-model as the SN# begins with this letter.

My answers 3. and 4. are more or less speculative. Anyone interested?

Felix

[LaPorte]

Notice how the altos are in the 20,xxx range.

Your altos are Revelation model's? Contrary to the Rudy Wiedoeft's they were not limited to a certain range of numbers.

I'll soon begin a list of LaPorte made CollegiateI. I think this would be instructive, too.

Felix

[soybean]

1. The saxophon was made by CouesnonThat's interesting. There was a Holton/Couesnon connection! Please tell us more. I have a Couesnon alto that i like very much. There was also a Couesnon/Yamaha connection that i can discuss, but it's off topic here.

[bruce bailey]

Both of those non-Rudy altos were the standard opposing bell key models.

[LaPorte]

Both of those non-Rudy altos were the standard opposing bell key models.

The 'standard opposing bell key model' is the Revelation (Ref.: Ads from the mid twenties), which was the main professional series, later (thirties) with bell keys on the left side. Collegiate series (I: LaPorte made with opposite bell keys, II: Elkhorn made, bell keys left side, completely different saxophones) were second line, imo high quality horns, too.

I've added a SN 34507 (tenor) to the Wiedoeft list.

Felix

[geauxsax]

The 'standard opposing bell key model' is the Revelation (Ref.: Ads from the mid twenties), which was the main professional series, later (thirties) with bell keys on the left side. Collegiate series (I: LaPorte made with opposite bell keys, II: Elkhorn made, bell keys left side, completely different saxophones) were second line, imo high quality horns, too.

I've added a SN 34507 (tenor) to the Wiedoeft list.

Felix

Check out some of the saxes on holtonloyalist.com:

http://www.holtonloyalist.com/saxophones.htm

Of note, the bottom two tenors: The middle one (sn 21XXX) has the spatula front high F. It also has the "extra keys".

The bottom one (no front high F), sn 31XXX is very similar (but not identical) to my horn. Note also, that is is a Collegiate with split bell keys-also claiming to be the earliest that the site has seen--I don't doubt that. Additionally, check out the different shapes in the RH pinky key cluster--they are always different between front F horns and non Front F. (The LH pinky cluster has been modified--it must have had the pearl G too). Lastly, the plam keys are different: Long and flat for non-front F, but further out from the body and rounder finger pads on front F models. I also believe the octave keys were different too--teardrop on front F models, but shaped around the thumb button on non-F models.

Bottom line: even if they weren't marking them as such, Holton was making two different models during the 20XXX-39XXX range. Is that Collegiate in fact a LaPorte horn? It isn't marked as such--it says Elkhorn like all the rest (post-Chicago of course).

[LaPorte]

Note also, that is is a Collegiate with split bell keys...
Is that Collegiate in fact a LaPorte horn? It isn't marked as such--it says Elkhorn like all the rest (post-Chicago of course).

Yes, it is. The Collegiate I (split bell keys, made in LaPorte) tells the location of the residence of the Frank Holton Company, not the location of the factory. This is usual practice, the corresponding Lyon&Healy saxophones, which came from the LaPorte factory too, are marked 'Chicago', cause this was the residence of Lyon&Healy. "Made by * Couturier * LaPorte * IND" is engraved on the saxophones of the original founder: Ernst Albert Couturier. The E.A. Couturier Band Instrument Company (residence and factory in LaPorte!) began building saxophones in August 1922. Oct.4, 1923 the company went into receivership. Lyon&Healy purchased the company 1924. The factory was taken over by Frank Holton April 1928.

The saxophones built by Couturier, later by Lyon&Healy and at last by Frank Holton (Collegiate I) are essentially the same, but different from all Elkhorn made ones as they have different bore, different conical form, thick bevelled toneholes etc. and different tone, nothing compares!. The only difference within the LaPorte made saxophones is the application (keywork), which was changed by L&H 1925 and slightly 1926 and a patented modification of the octave key introduced 1927.

SN# 31802 is indeed "the earliest reference" I've seen on a Collegiate I saxophone* made by Frank Holton. The year of production is (spring) 1928, not 1918 as supposed by the author. This SN is valuable information for our SN# reconstruction. It corresponds very well with our understanding of the Rudy Wiedoeft model. The earliest SN in the list above (R.W. except c-melody) is 32938!

See also my posting #84.

Thank you for the info!

Felix

*Forgotten to tell: The Elkhorn made Collegiate's (Collegiate II) have partly lower serial numbers (my CollegiateII is in the 19xxx range). But these follow an own set of numbers, until 1931. Since then all Holton serial numbers had one set of numbers, woodwind and brass!

[LaPorte]

I've edited my last posting to make it more precise.

... until 1931. Since then all Holton serial numbers had one set of numbers, woodwind and brass!

As far as I know this point is not yet discussed.

Felix

[LaPorte]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140266866237&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting
SN#34384, added to the R.W.-list.

Felix

[LaPorte]

That's interesting. There was a Holton/Couesnon connection! Please tell us more.
Probably Holton did not ever sell stencils. "We build no instruments of this kind as every horn made here (Elkhorn) is engraved 'Made by Frank Holton&Co' "...from "A trip through The Holton Factory", page 23. This seems to be true as I couldn't find any Holton stencil until now. Ca. two years ago I found a Bb soprano without any engraving, obviously made by Holton. The "Beaufort American" (ca. 1930) was made by Holton, but that was no stencil either as B.A. was a trademark Holton used together with C.G. Conn, based in Chicago.
Vice versa we have two references, that Holton put his Name (without 'made by')on saxophones, that are built by another company:

1. The "Beaufort" model, ca 1916/17. This one has nothing to do with the 'Beaufort American'!
this was obviously made in France. Further researches showed close similiaritys to the Couesnon saxes of that time.

2. "The special" made probably in the beginning forties. Made by Couesnon.

What could be the reason for the Holton company to sell these stencils?
This only makes sense, when demand is higher then supply. In case of Holton this could be reckoned for the time 1916/17 (Beaufort model) before he had completed tooling to produce own saxophones, then beginning year 1918, when he transferred his company from Chicago to Elkhorn WIS and at last when he changed production using new machines at the beginning forties, so "The Special" might have filled the gap.

Why does "The Special" say 'Chicago' instead of Elkhorn?
I feel that my language is rather limited and my dictionary poor to say correctly what I mean. I try it later.

Felix

[bruce bailey]

What about those curved sopranos made in Austria that appear on ebay at times?

[LaPorte]

Do you mean curved sopranos with the Holton logo put on them?

Felix

[bruce bailey]

There were some that said Holton and maybe "European" or "Imported" on them . No pearls and pretty basic. I do remember Austria though.

[bruce bailey]

Soybean, here are the photos of the C Soprano you requested. Sorry about the quality as I was getting some altos done and hurried these along:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12157552@N02/tags/holtoncsop/show/
Pretty nice horn even though the pads are old but sealing well. Great sound, a little flat on Bb2 up to C#2 but no worse than any vintage sax of the time. So far it is the best C soprano I have owned but I have only had 5 over the years.

[soybean]

Sorry about the qualityBruce, those photos look great! No problem with quality at all. I love the small size of the C soprano. Everything is cute on it without being tiny like a sopranino. Holton had some pretty great craftsmen to build something like that.

[LaPorte]

NEW REVELATION added to the model list #80, page 4.

Felix

[LaPorte]

I just bought a Holton Tenor (a rare Wiedoeft tenor) off Ebay.

To confirm my researches, please tell me the exact outside diameter of the neck tenon from the WIEDOEFT tenor. @GEAUXSAX: please tell me the corresponding diameter of your Holton Tenor (NEW REVELATION), too.

Thank you.

Felix

[geauxsax]

Sorry for the delay, but I had trouble finding a suitable measuring tool (just moved in and everythng is in boxes.) Roughly though, it is approximately 30.5 to 31 mm.

Update: Just got something accurate to measure with--the tenon is right at 31mm for the outside diameter.

[LaPorte]

Thank you, geauxsax!

Felix

[geauxsax]

Here is a list of Holton-models from 1916 to 1940:

BEAUFORT **(stencil, made by Couesnon; ca. 1916/1917; rare): split bell, keygards with forged ends (looks like duck feet)

REVELATION-model, series I (Chicago 1917/18; rare): split bell, soldered toneholes, front F key, additional trill keys.

REVELATION-model, series I (Elkhorn, spring 1918 - ca. 1930):
Production continued in Elkhorn, Wisconsin, front F key from ca. 1926, early ones without front F key.

RUDY WIEDOEFT model (ca.1928-1930..) B and Bb left side, special tenon for the mouthpiece, round g#-key with mother of pearl-inlay, additional low C vent-key. From the beginning thirties without the "Rudy Wiedoeft model"- engraving.

COLLEGIATE-series I* (1928/29, rare) split bell, solid and bevelled (type: LaPorte, not Martin-style) soldered-on tone chimneys , L-shaped C#-G#-key
Partly the production was sold under the tradename "Beaufort American" Production ended 1929/1930. Some "Beaufort American's" were built by Conn!

NEW REVELATION, professional series, (ca. 1930, very rare) split bell, engraving like Revelation I, new application, spatula keys like RUDY WIEDOEFT model, no front F, made in Elkhorn.

COLLEGIATE series II* (from beginning thirties..): B and Bb left side, Corpus like Revelation, keys only the 'needed', no front F

RESO-TONE (1937; rare) Text of the original ad:

"This is a new Holton Reso-Tone Alto Saxophone, built upon new proportions and with new tonal quality, new mouthpipe, new octave key, new keygards and new thumb rest. A completely new instrument that will set new standard in saxophone construction and tone."

THE SPECIAL** (beginning forties; stencil made by Couesnon, France; rare)

I have compiled this list in german and translated it for SOTW. Please let me know, if you have additional model-info or find mistakes (including bad english?)

* means: the serial numbers partly follow a different line of numbers
** means: the serial numbers follow a completely different line of numbers


Felix

Felix,
This is a great list. Any idea how the (fairly well received, given that a silver 241 sold for $1200 a few months back) 240 series tenors/230 series altos, etc (can't remember the bari number series--270???, or sopranos fit in, with regard to changes? Were they all new saxophones, or just progressive updates on the older models?

Also, what about the later Collegiates? I believe the tenors were marked as model 566. Not sure about the altos, etc. Were these made at the same time as the 240 series horns and intended to be student models? I know there are folks out there quite happy with their Collegiates, and their body and keywork looks fairly similar to older Holtons--maybe they were updated Revelations, in the same way that Buescher basically used modified True Tones as lesser models while making the 400 T&C as well as Aristocrats (I'm just speculating though--any thoughts?)

Update: Sorry--you answered some of my questions earlier I guess--I just missed/forgot some earlier posts. Anway, I was struck by something you mentioned: Did you say that Holton changed from soldered to drawn tone holes? If so, approximately when, and what models? I had never noticed (but then, I don't own any later Holtons either).

[jazzbug1]

Sorry-- Missed your post on the tenon for the Rudy tenor. Will answer tomorrow. I bought on EBay ($300) a burnished gold C melody. It has engraving all over the bell and even INSIDE the bell. I saw an alto once like this. It also has that rare combination of the front F and bar G# keys. It just arrived and I have never seen such a pristine horn. It even has the gold-plated cap and ligature with the original metal/resin Holton mouthpiece. There is not a scratch or dent on the horn. Let me guess... "A wealthy doctor in Chicago bought this for little junior's 16th birthday. Junior ran off to California with a flapper and was never seen again. The family saved the horn, but alas, junior never returned. so...." I had planned to rebuild and sell this on EBay, as why would I want a Rudy gold and silver model and a gold C Melody with deluxe engraving?... H-m-m.

[geauxsax]

Jazzbug,
That C mel sounds like Bruce's alto (since sold to Connie)---Gold with extra engraving, Bar G#, and front F. We've got to see some pics!

[soybean]

I bought on EBay ($300) a burnished gold C melody. … …I had planned to rebuild and sell this on EBay, …I almost bought that horn. If you do decide to sell it, I call "dibs"!

Then, all i need is a flapper to run away with.

[soybean]

Here is a list of Holton-models from 1916 to 1940:


I'm glad that you are updating this list as new information becomes available. A few comments;


Has anyone here seen (or have photo of) a Holton Reso-tone? I wonder if this is the prototype for the later 230/40 series or if it is a different design. There are plenty of reso-tone plastic clarinets but these seem to have nothing to do with Holton.
ˆ
Would my C-melody (220XX) be considered a Revelation series?

Maybe we can call the Revelation made in Chicago I-a and those made in Elkhorn I-b. Or just series I and series II.
ˆ
Is the Special model the same as a Couesnon Monopole (pro horn) or is it an intermediate model?
ˆ
I'm hope you will expand the list to include 230-3 and 240-3 models (1950s). :D

[jazzbug1]

I am so computer ignorant, that I don't know how to send pictures to this website.Besides, I ran out of flash powder for my camera. I will try to do this after it is re-built. Hey guys--Get this--- My wife said "KEEP IT!"

[bruce bailey]

Sign up for a flickr free account. It is easy to download up to 200 photos and you can group them in tags. Then just put a link here to the photos and dial-up users won't complain about slow loading of the threads due to the photos.

[bruce bailey]

Does your engraving look like this? I think it is factory but you never know!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12157552@N02/tags/holtongold/show/

[soybean]

Yes, that's how i remember the engraving. Jazzbug can you confirm?

[LaPorte]

Felix,
This is a great list. Any idea how the (fairly well received, given that a silver 241 sold for $1200 a few months back) 240 series tenors/230 series altos, etc (can't remember the bari number series--270???, or sopranos fit in, with regard to changes? Were they all new saxophones, or just progressive updates on the older models?

Also, what about the later Collegiates? I believe the tenors were marked as model 566. Not sure about the altos, etc. Were these made at the same time as the 240 series horns and intended to be student models? I know there are folks out there quite happy with their Collegiates, and their body and keywork looks fairly similar to older Holtons--maybe they were updated Revelations, in the same way that Buescher basically used modified True Tones as lesser models while making the 400 T&C as well as Aristocrats (I'm just speculating though--any thoughts?)

Update: Sorry--you answered some of my questions earlier I guess--I just missed/forgot some earlier posts. Anway, I was struck by something you mentioned: Did you say that Holton changed from soldered to drawn tone holes? If so, approximately when, and what models? I had never noticed (but then, I don't own any later Holtons either).


I´m no expert concerning the 230, 240, 566 etc. models. I call them 'three digit models', which is not quite correct, as the model names (Revelation, not written on the horns; Collegiate) lasted on. But it seems to be a practical way of classification. I´ve documented information and pictures from the 201, 204 and 270 (bariton) which came out in the thirties. I look up the serial numbers next week and post them here. Updates or new saxophones: Sorry, I have n't examined the correlation between model numbers and modification.

What I can see from internet reviews the later Holtons (including Collegiates) are generally good horns.

I think the relation between Revelation and Collegiates of the late twenties and early thirties are just as you describe. Your Revelation II tenor and my Collegiate II alto ( both 1930) are like brother and sister. I would like to tell more details later, when I'm able to post pictures (see new posting of jazzbug1, he describes my issues!) :?

Drawn toneholes: See good and detailed pictures from e.g. a 566. You will find the sharp rims and the smooth base of tonechimneys on the bell. What I could get from serial numbers the change in production could be assumed for the early forties (some of the saxophone family earlier, some later).

Felix

[LaPorte]

I'm glad that you are updating this list as new information becomes available. A few comments;


Has anyone here seen (or have photo of) a Holton Reso-tone? I wonder if this is the prototype for the later 230/40 series or if it is a different design. There are plenty of reso-tone plastic clarinets but these seem to have nothing to do with Holton.
ˆ
Would my C-melody (220XX) be considered a Revelation series?

Maybe we can call the Revelation made in Chicago I-a and those made in Elkhorn I-b. Or just series I and series II.
ˆ
Is the Special model the same as a Couesnon Monopole (pro horn) or is it an intermediate model?
ˆ
I'm hope you will expand the list to include 230-3 and 240-3 models (1950s). :D



I have a small photo of a Reso-tone from a historical ad sold on ebay. I would like to post it here, but... see jazzbug's comment! :?

Your C-melody SN 22,0xx is definately a Revelation model. From 1917 to 1927 there were no other model names than 'Revelation' except the Rudy Wiedoeft C-melody which was introduced evidently (see R.W. serial number list) in 1925, (all other R.W. were obviously introduced in 1928 as jazzbug1 stated). Last year I bought a detailed (several pages) 'Revelation' ad from the mid twenties, but the seller forgot to send the item. :(

To call the Chicago made Revelation Ia and the Elkhorn made Ib is a very good idea, as there is no difference in construction except front F. In addition (or besides? what's the correct term?) we don't know exactly when front F disappeared, as the lowest (Elkhorn made!) SN I could find until now is about 5,000. The feature was introduced again mid twenties.

'The Special' is a Couesnon B-series, no 'Monopole' or 'Monopole Conservatoire'. In a (product marketing) sense this is a student horn and I'm a very happy student playing it. :). I would like to present it on your 'Couesnon stencil' thread, but ... see above.

When sombody has new information I would be glad to expand the list. Eventually geauxsax has some infos? :D

Felix

[soybean]

LaPorte and Jazzbug, i will be happy to post photos here for you if you like. Send me a private message and i will send you my email address.

[jazzbug1]

Bruce: My engraving is identical to the photos, so it seems every maker (I've seen deluxe engraving on every 1920s make except King and York) had at least one master engraver.
LaPorte: My Rudy tenor neck opening receiver is 28.5 mm. The Rudy C melody is 25mm and my new gold non-Rudy is 25mm.
Soybean: I will send photos as soon as I investigate the new COLOR pictures I have seen lately. Otherwise, I will hand color them as has been done in the past.

[jazzbug1]

Update on the "new" gold C melody: The serial # is 22682. It has the bar G# and the front F, which must have existed only for a short time, as in the silver one I just sold. Furthermore, it is the only saxophone I have ever seen with SKIN PADS, as on a clarinet. When I stripped the horn, I could tell they were original. I'm guessing this was custom set up for a clarinet player or, since they seal better than the fluffy pads in use at that time, Holton put them on this very expensive (guess $300-$500) model. The ONLY scratch on this horn is on on the neck strap clip. It is unbelieveable. When my wife saw the engraved butterflies, she said, "You need two C melodys!" I couldn't argue. The case is excellent. My guess is that the skin pads deteriorated quickly and then it was put away, although my other story sounds more romantic. I am re-padding it now and it will have a happy home, with numerous historic jazz concerts. I played my Rudy tenor with Leon Redbone last Sunday and everyone commented on the tone.

[LaPorte]

LaPorte: My Rudy tenor neck opening receiver is 28.5 mm.

Thank you for the info!

Felix

[Connie]

Jazzbug1,
If you ever decide to sell that C-mel, let me know. I'd love to have a match for MY purdy little alto. ;o)

[geauxsax]

Holton?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Beaufort-American-Chicago-Alto-Sax-S-P286xx-low-pitch_W0QQitemZ350106110607QQihZ022QQcategoryZ1190 30QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[warp x]

Holton?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Beaufort-American-Chicago-Alto-Sax-S-P286xx-low-pitch_W0QQitemZ350106110607QQihZ022QQcategoryZ1190 30QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Seems to have a mercedes low C guard..

[LaPorte]

Holton?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Beaufort-American-Chicago-Alto-Sax-S-P286xx-low-pitch_W0QQitemZ350106110607QQihZ022QQcategoryZ1190 30QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

This alto is made by Conn (Pan American), serial # beginning with a "P". This model combines new and older features (e.g. no front F, but 'modern' palm keys without bumper posts!). "Beaufort American" was sort of a 'joint venture' of Holton and Conn ca. 1930/31 during the depression. The trademark 'Beaufort American', based in Chicago (engraving!) lasted only a short period. The saxophones came from the existing production, either Conn or Holton. The Holtons correspond to the Collegiate I.

See also my Holton model list (Holton Collegiate series I).

Felix

[LaPorte]

Any idea how the (fairly well received, given that a silver 241 sold for $1200 a few months back) 240 series tenors/230 series altos, etc (can't remember the bari number series--270???

The silver plated Holton bari series 270 has SN# 130692. The number puts it to the year 1939. The engraving shows a unique floral design, which I never found before on a Holton saxophone.

R.W. Alto SN#36480 added to the R.Wiedoeft list.

Additions to the model list #80 in blue.

Felix

[jazzbug1]

Holton?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Beaufort-American-Chicago-Alto-Sax-S-P286xx-low-pitch_W0QQitemZ350106110607QQihZ022QQcategoryZ1190 30QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Jazzbug sees a "Mercedes" keyguard at the bottom, which always means Conn.

[jazzbug1]

Look at EBay #260295683717. A Collegiate soprano, Serial #211XXX. Note the modern left pinky cluster. Could this date from the 1940s? If it does, its one of the few sopranos anybody made in this era. Its a beautiful horn.

[soybean]

I am guessing this is an earlier horn. The thumb-ring, white pads and 'L' for low-pitch all seem to indicate a 1920s horn. Pinky cluster does seem more modern.

[geauxsax]

One of our members bought a Holton (Rudy Tenor I believe) from that seller. Maybe Mr. Fixit (???). The post is in the Holton section.

[bruce bailey]

That soprano is one of the Courturier horns. Also, I have a L&H alto that has the three pointed keyguard:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12157552@N02/2236918949/

[LaPorte]

That soprano is one of the Courturier horns.

Right! This soprano saxophone SN#201849 was one of the very first 'Collegiate' which came out of the LaPorte factory after purchasing the production from Lyon&Healy, which was in spring 1928. It has a six digit serial number, beginning with a 201xxx (some with a 202xxx, like my Holton bari) stamped by the Lyon&Healy company!. Professionally fixed and played with passion, it will breathe the soul of E.A. Couturier, who ended performing 1928!

"Since I have my Lyon&Healy Couturier model
as my 'first' playing horn (alto), I can't stop researching the background of such great sounding horns, which came out of the LaPorte factory between 1922 and 1929. And this is part of the Holton history, too. Frank Holton (playing trombone) and Ernst Albert Couturier (great performer on cornet) were friends (Collegiate?!) together they created fantastic Horns (brass). Could the saxophone community accept that some of the best sounding saxophones were created by 'brass'-men?" (from my posting #84)

Note, that the number is written in a line , not in an arc. As I'm registrating all serial numbers of LaPorte made saxophones, I could identify this soprano as reselling on ebay this year.

Felix

[bruce bailey]

I'll get the serial numbers for my L&H altos later. I have the photos since they are for sale but I looked and they don't show the numbers. I sold the soprano to Europe so I can't provide that one.

[soybean]

Could the saxophone community accept that some of the best sounding saxophones were created by 'brass'-men?For example; Couesnon.

[Connie]

This thread ought to be a sticky.

[jazzbug1]

I re-built and sold a Wurlitzer C melody about a year ago. I noticed the brace rings at the bell/bow were embossed with three or four decorative rings, and were not plain rings as on most horns