Need beginner flute recommendations (USA)

[JfW]

I'm looking to purchase a flute. I have no practical experience on this instrument other than two weeks of experimentation in Highschool 12 years ago. My instruction then was almost non existant and the instrument that was loaned to me was probably rather poor to learn on. I want to give it another try but will need a proper instrument, of course.

It's rather difficult to purchase an instrument you cannot play and I may or may not be able to have an experienced player try out potentials for me, especially if it's an online purchase.

I'd like to try to learn this instrument myself, with the help of books and Gordon's Treatise. Gordon and others advocate strongly for Japanese Yamaha instruments, but being stateside I don't have access to those instruments. In addition, Yamaha student and intermediate instruments are comparitively expensive compared to other makes in the US.

My specifications are simple. I need an easy to play instrument with a C foot, offset G, with plateau styled keys. I'd like to keep it under $300-$350, and used is certainly acceptable.

Gemeinhardt is a prefered standard here, but what about armstrong, emerson, jupiter, and artley flutes? I see a lot of artley flutes in second hand stores and have a strong suspicion that there's a reason they end up in places like this.

Any popular brands that I'd best avoid? Any standout values?

any comment would be appriciated.

[Bnatural]

in my minimal flute experience I was extremely unhappy w/ the artely i played.... a little bit more happy w/ the Gemeinhardt and i found that out of those three I liked the armstrong the best .... hope this helps......

[gary]

Boy, that's a pretty tough price range you've set. I would give a call to WW&BW, Wichita Band Co. and, maybe Chuck Levin's Washington music and tell them what you want and the price range and ask what used or factory blemished instruments they've got on hand

If it were me, I'd be looking for a Gemeinhardt 'cause I play one (although in a higher price category) and it's a great doubler's flute. I played a Yamaha before that and it was a pretty good flute as well, so I can recommend these two makes.

[JfW]

Thanks for the responses,

BTW, anyone have any experience with the Bundy Flutes?

[Ivy]

JfW, I started on a Gemeinhardt 25 years ago. They were ok flutes back then but the new models, even the student models are much better. I haven't checked out the new Gemeinhardt though.

A friend bought a used student Yamaha (2 years old)with your requirements for about 300$. These flutes are very common. I found it to be an excellent flute. I was thinking of buying one as a second flute.

good luck!

[Gordon (NZ)]

I am familiar with Gemeinhardt 2SP and its successor 2ESP. The former had a very 'fuzzy' tone, which I improved by milling alterations to the embouchure hole. The 2ESP was significantly better, but I couldn't get it as good as a modified 2SP.

I find both rather poor to play compared with the standard set by Yamaha - at least the totally Japanese made Yamahas that I see.

Gemeinhardt used to be very popular here, epecially in schools, on account of their robust construction and consistency, and generally preferable to the other makes mentioned above as available. However judging from comments in a flute forum, USA appears to have some more impressive Artley/Armstrong models available, unless the comments just come from Nationalistic fervour. I have found Artleys/Armstrongs (the models I have seen) inconsistent, and generally disappointing. I would steer clear of Emerson.

[DaveKessler]

Here is my opinion as a retailer:

Our favorite student flutes are the Armstrongs. Right now, they have been the most responsive student flutes we can find. This used to not be the case 10+ years ago but they have been steadily improving their models where other more notable companies have been staying stagnate.

Yamaha's are probably our 2nd with Emerson coming quickly on their tails and Gemeinhardt falling a distant 4th.

In fact, we are phasing Gemeinhardt out of my store completely. Their setup is probably the WORST in the entire music industry. On average, brand new, we have to spend about 45-60 minutes repairing brand new Gemeinhardt flutes before they play.

Jupiters are very good but way to pricey for a Taiwanese made product.

I am actually running a heavy special on new Armstrong student flutes. I cannot list the price on the net but I have brand new Armstrong 104 & 102 models that fall between the price range you mentioned, and these are Prime A stock, not factory seconds or blem models.

E-Mail me for price if interested. My personal recommendation lies on the 102 because of the headjoint cut.

[gary]

To be fair, I took another look at my Gemeinhardt and the current MSRP for that model is $1,200.00 plus I've got a $365.00 solid silver headjoint. Doesn't mean that Gemeinhardt doesn't make good flutes at a lower cost but obviously my flute is from a different price range than you were looking for and so is the quality.

[bruce bailey]

I have had a flute shop for 30+ years and the choices today are better than ever. Gemeinhardts are still a durable flute and can be found for very little although the pitch is not the greatest and the heads tend to be stuffy. For easy blowing, get a Yamaha or Jupiter. For all around performance, get an Emerson or better yet a new DeFord which is basically a high line Em. Most of all get a sterling head and hopefully open holes. For a doubler, nickel bodies are just fine. I sell tons of them to sax players. When buying new, get a low B not so much for the note, but for resale. A C-foot is like having a new sax without a high F#.

[Gordon (NZ)]

I beg to differ on several issues:

1. A sterling heard is not a huge priority. a basic Yamaha without a sterling head is probably easier to play loud and clear than a sterling head and body flute of many makes; the DESIGN of the head is FAR more important than the metal itself.

2. That being said, as an accomplished flute player, and instrument repairer, I have NEVER (in decades of play-testing many hundreds) played a nickel plated flute that plays anywhere near as well as the silver plated equivalent. This is probably because if the maker has skimped enough on costs to nickel plate, then other really important aspects, such as embouchure hole design, have also been skimped on. nickel plated flutes typically have a harsh, buzzy, characterless, resistant, low-volume tone.

3. There is absolutely no need for open holes unless a flute player wants to do special effects such as sliding between notes, especially for a doubler, who has enough problems playing flute without the difficulties presented by open holes. Open holes do NOT improve the sound of a flute. if they did, then 5 notes of the scale would have a better sound than the other 7.

4. A low B is almost never used by a doubler, and is a thorough nuisance for easily hitting the low C roller, especially for a doubler not practising as much as a serious flute player. IN almost any situation where a low B really is required, a piece of plastic tube can be slipped onto the flute as an extension to change C into B. It makes C# a little flat, but it can easily be lipped up.

"A C-foot is like having a new sax without a high F#. " Quite! It is little more than a retail selling gimmick. Most players doubling on sax will never use high F#. Some outstanding instruments do not have this key, and some professional players consider the negatives (poorer response on some low notes) to outweigh the positives. It is almost in the category of a gimmick. Good sax players play high F# very easily without this key.

- IMHO

[tubbycub]

I need a flute that is easy to play and has a nice tone. Any comments on the Yamaha YFL-321?

[bpimentel]

In response to a few of the comments about C versus B foot, open vs. closed holes, etc.

Of course, bottom line, you have to choose the instrument that is best for you. I'm sure we all agree on that.

Every so often the clarinet message board at woodwind.org turns to the topic of Buffet clarinets and whether orchestra auditioners discriminate against clarinetists who play less popular brands. Maybe they do, maybe they don't, but if I suspect they might then I will certainly bring my Buffet. Likewise, if I see a doubler on a gig pull out a closed-hole, C-foot flute, my first (and admittedly unfair) impression might be that the guy is a poor flutist--since, after all, the best flutists I know all have B-foot and open holes. All else being equal, it doesn't hurt to look the part of a virtuoso.

Bret Pimentel

[bruce bailey]

My opinions on C-B foot and Open holes is considering resale. As most of us are constantly upgrading, the flute will undoubtedly be replaced and when buying a new one, open holes and a B-foot will add only about $100 to the price and when it it sold, may mean the difference in selling it or having to "give it away". Even though all of the flutes I build have silver tubing and 14K gold risers, B-foot and OH, My everyday player is an old Conn New wonder 2-piece that is closed hole and c-foot. A dream to play!

[mostly alto guy]

Get hold of a basic Muramatsu...

Just kidding. As with almost every beginning/student instrument, Yamaha entry level flutes have an excellent reputation for playability and build quality. They resell well also.

[Gordon (NZ)]

Hear, hear!

[ZenBen]

Last night, after years of struggling on my Gemeinhardt, I tried a friend's strudent model Yamaha (i don't know the model #). The Yamaha is night and day easier to play than mine. I'm going to have to save up to buy one.

[bruce bailey]

Not really, you can find very nice used yamahas for under $200 and "nearly new" ones for under $300. I think their lower lines are the best buys. You can't beat a 225 for a doubler's horn.

[Seraphina]

Cant beat Yamaha flutes in the lower price bracket,especially the 311-s with the silver headjoint,the Yamahas have a bigger rounder sound and better build quality and hold their value better than many similar priced makers IMHO.

[SassyBlonde]

I've found, surprisingly, that my favorite doubling flute is one of the low-end Jupiter models- the 511R. It's open holed with a B-foot, and last time I checked was just about in your price range brand new. (They make other variations of this model for even less, too.) I've also found it to be easier to double on because it produces a nice fat sound quite a bit easier than a Yamaha or Gemeinhardt (and the last thing I want to have to think about is working that sound out when you have three measures to switch from bari sax!!!) :D

[Gordon (NZ)]

Perhaps Jupiter have become more consistent recently.

However in the past I would suggest that they were particularly inconsistent, and you may have struck an exceptionally good one. At least in the past, I don't think it would be the norm for them to play easier than a Yamaha, and they certainly have been a lot less robust.

[Stacey]

To restate an earlier question which I share for reasons not worth describing: Anyone have specific comments on the Yamaha YFL-321? Comparisons to the YFL-221? Comments on what these two models would cost new?

[Gordon (NZ)]

As far as I can gather from the coding systems outlined in a Yamaha manual, the only difference would be a sterling silver head.

The metal may not make a great deal of difference, but the head may be better designed as well, which could make a big difference. The difference is that less effort is needed to get the same results of volume/tone/response.

IMHO (putting aside all the flutey 'beliefs' and marketing voodoo)

[sessionsax]

I have to put in my vote for the Yamaha. After trying intermediate models in the Gemienhart line and various, I found the best flute for doubling to be a 200 dollar Yamaha beginners flute.

The intonation and tone are so good that I actually record with this flute and haven't felt the need to upgrade.

I have been curious about the Pearl and Maramatsu flutes, but I am not willing to pay what they go for and the Yamaha does what I need it to.

[Bari Gordon]

I just got a Yamaha 311ii flute off ebay. It has a silver headjoint, silver-plated body, closed hole, C-foot. I am stepping up from a 33 year old silver plated student Armstrong flute (no model number).

Although I have had a flute for many years, until a couple of years ago I haven't been very happy with my ability. Finally I spent some time on tone production, basic techniques, and intermediate literature to the point where I was more comfortable using my flute on combo gigs.

I have been debating whether I should get a step-up flute, or invest in a new headjoint for my Armstrong. Well, a deal I couldn't refuse on ebay made my decision. I won the Yamaha for $175.

I cannot believe how much my sound instantly improved! Whether it is the solid silver or the cut of the embrochure (or the combination) I do not know. All the notes are more responsive and I can get the more complex tone I am searching for with partials sounding above the root tone. The headjoint is much lighter than my older one, which may account for some of the responsiveness, but it also makes the instrument more comfortable to play. It makes me wonder if weight reduction may be as good reason to get a solid silver flute as tone production.

The rest of the flute is well put together. The location of the G# lever is a little foreign to me, but I'm sure I can adjust to it. I also feel the risers on the inside of my right fingers, they must be higher than the Armstrong, but again, just a matter of me feeling comfortable. I sure do reccomend the flute (especially if you can get one at that price).

This flute looks new. The only place I've seen Yamaha 311 models on the internet is on European sites. Does anyone know if the 321 is the US version of the 311? Also, this flute has a lever that my Armstrong does not have. When I close the 2nd finger right hand, it also closes the lower G pad. What is that for?

[Gordon (NZ)]

I have three recommendations for students on flute here in NZ:

First, the basic student Yamaha.
Next, the 311 you describe if the student wants a step-up.
Finally, for the serious player, well there is quite a range, with personal taste involved.

I am glad you have found this to be sound.

The centre digit '1' in the model number, refers to three features: Non-open hole, off-set G keys, and the Slit-E mechanism that you have noticed, which makes third octave E a lot easier to play, especially when slurring up or down from the 'A' above or below.

The centre digit '2' refers to only two of these features, the split-E being excluded. Outside America the very sensible (at least for non-professional players) split-E is probably more common than its absence.

Models that are more common in USA have a '6' or '7' as centre digit, referring to flutes with ring keys.

You have done very well indeed. The price was probably that low only because it was a model that USA buyers did not recognise. 95% of players most certainly do not need or benefit from open holes, and there are several significant down-sides to open holes. It is currently an American 'fad' for want of a better term.

[Whatasaxman]

As a doubler myslf I would have to highly recommend the Pearl Flutes. If you are looking for a high quality flute at a decent price they are a great bargain for their lesser models and play circles around their american counterparts. IMO Other than the Pearls I ould next go to the Yamahas, but you will pay a premium for the name recognition.

[Gordon (NZ)]

....you will pay a premium for the name recognition....

It depends on your locality. Where I am, the retailer is getting away with pricing Taiwanese Pearls much the same as Yamahas.

I find Pearls in general take 1 1/2 - 2 times longer to service, because of a wider range of deficiencies in manufacture. For example, sloppy pivot tubes are common with Pearl, but not with Yamaha. Non-level tone holes are more common with Pearl.

[Whatasaxman]

I have to say I have never experienced those problems with Pearls. Everyone I have seen has been well put together, and the 501's have been setup well, and sound better than anything else I have tried in the price range and even a couple hundred bucks more. I do know that there was a batch of 501's that there were problems with(open hole grommets were to tight), and Pearl had no problem exchanging them. I've been playing an 885RBE for 20 years and just Love it.

[Riff]

I bought a Pearl 501 for my daughter last August. By September the foot joint was binding to the tenon on the main tube. It was obviously a manufacturing defect. I contacted Pearl, they wouldn't help. (although the were very polite about it.) I paid to have it fixed locally. By October it was happening again. I contacted the mail order dealer I bought it from. They wouldn't exchange it but willingly fixed it again under warranty and even reimbursed me for the first repair I had paid for. (Impressive customer service that) They had the flute for a month.

This second repair lasted until January 2004 when it was obvious that the problem was recurring and getting progressively worse. By March, my daughter could no longer put the flute together or take it apart without my help. I contacted the retailer again and they agreed to exchange the flute.
At this time, I chose to upgrade to a Yamaha. The retailer told me Pearl would not take the flute back. They would repair it again and send it back to them, thereby forcing them to sell it once again as a used instrument. So ultimately someone else is going to get stuck with this lemon.

Prior to all of this, I had been considering a Pearl Quantz model for myself. No longer. Pearl can put their flutes where the sun don't shine.

[Gordon (NZ)]

Only in the last year or two, I've had problems with student Yamahas' lower tenons.

It is as if some grinding process, used for the inner surface of the socket, leaves some (invisible) grit embedded in the metal surface, which then scours away at the tenon, making it very tight.