Recording Tips

[ferrari]

Thought I'd start this thread because I don't know much about recording sax or flute. It would be great to hear what has worked well in terms of things like EQ, mic distance, type of reverb etc. Today was my second recording session, and both engineers I've used are not terribly familiar with recording sax, so any input is appreciated.

[KJ]

I'll put in my .02. I used to run a studio at a university and have done recordings for major and minor labels in jazz and classical genres.

Most importantly- use your ears!
Since you are a sax player, you should know what kind of sound you expect to be captured by the engineers. When you listen back to the takes, if it sounds bad to you, then trust your instincts. Let the engineer know what kind of sound you'd like to hear. (ie. can we make my sound warmer, brighter?, etc...)They should be able to relate to that type of feedback.

Secondly- solve acoustic problems acoustically.
If you have to use a lot of eq to get the sound you like- then the mic placement is probably not ideal.Work more on getting a good sound when recording, not by eq after the fact....

[saxboy]

The most important thing should be to capture the sound we all strive to achieve. I would agree with KJ’s comment above about using your ears. I suggest getting some sax on tape and listening after you have a short pass of some part of the song. If it sounds like you on a good day, get in and finish the session.

The use of Mics and placement of Mics totally depend on each other. I usually start with the Mic at the bell, about 6 inches away. If the sound is too bright move the Mic off axis to the right, toward your keys or up the tube a few inches. This will make the sound darker but can increase key noise if your sax is even a little noisy. Some guys track with the Mic at the B and Bb holes also for a darker sound. Sometimes the room sound will be cool and pulling the mic a couple feet out in front can work too but I usually go for a close, well placed Mic.

You want to use Mic placement, rather than EQ to fix the sound. If I see an engineer reaching for the EQ I always ask him what he is hearing and make the placement suggestion. Moving just a few inches can really change the sound!

The other thing to note here is, if a small move changes the sound that much, you have to make a good mental note of where you are standing and where the Mic is. Often, recording includes punches need to be made to get a great performance. If you go back out to the Mic and are not in the same place, the punch could get thrown out due to a tone or volume difference, even if it was THE perfect fix.

You can make it a lot easier for an engineer if you give him options on placement and be consistent every time you start playing again. KJ’s comment on EQ is very good. If you need a bunch of help with EQ to track in the first place, things will only get worse for your track when they start to mix. If the process or final product of your track sucks due to bad engineering, it will be attributed completely to you after the fact and will kill future calls from that potential client.

The more you do it, the better you get. When you leave a session, make a few notes to yourself about the mic they used and what you needed to do to make it work so you can be a bigger help at the next session with a sax-recording-virgin.

Lastly; don’t let this freak you out, enjoy the process and you will be a pro at it in no time.

SAXBOY

[Bill Mecca]

I'll ditto what the others have said. I will also say I haven't had all that much experience recording saxes, but I do produce video as my day gig, and do voice overs freelance.

With the advent of digital recording, I prefer to get a good sound on a dry take (no effects, just good recording with mic position), and then mess with the effects on the pc. If there's reverb for example on the sound's original recording, it's there. Yes, it could be removed to some degree with effects, but it would take quite a bit of work. I prefer to have the dry sound, add some reverb in post and listen, if I don't like it, all I have to do is hit the undo button, and I'm back to the original.

just my buck 380. :wink:

Basic mic placement on the sax for me, is about 6-8 inches above the bell, slightly to the right (of me) and amied about mid horn. That's a starting point, as saxboy says you can work the mic to alter the sound. And he is most definitely correct on the punch aspect, I know that from experience, good thing I had a great engineer on that session.

[saxboy]

There are a lot of variables when recording. In regards to effects while tracking…

Most studio recording will give you Reverb/Effects in the headphones while you track. These effects are not being recorded with your sax, but are there for you to hear what it might sound like when the recording is all done. I use effects all the time and used to leave my headphones very wet while tracking.

Over time I found a lot of things sounding wrong when I finally heard the finished mix of the song I played on. I really wanted to learn from the process and have made the following observations.

When the sax effects are recorded with, inside, your sax track; it is called burning the effects. Very small studios with few effects might burn the effects and, since electric guitar effects are always burned as part of the guitar track, engineers that are also guitarist might head in that direction out of habit.

The only time I want the effects burned is when the effect made me play a certain part. For instance, a long delay that gives you a response to your sax would cause you to leave more space between your lines. If that big-ol delay is in your phones, making you play around it, and does not end up on your track, it would sound like you left way too much space between lines. Another example would be when playing “colors”. Sighs and Whale sounds can sound great really wet, but can sound very lame if the track is mixed dry later.

I ask the engineer how he wants to do it. If we are tracking dry with no burned effects, I always remind him that those screams will sound great all wet and back a bit.

Why I start with the exception, I don’t know…

Oh well, I always track sax dry now. I found a great sound with effects in the phones can make me think I am playing better than I am. Those effects seldom make the Mix and can cover pitch of tuning problems. I figured out that dry sax in the cans sucks, and if I can make that sound good and in tune, then whatever the effects or mix placement after the fact, will only make it cooler. I always tell the engineer, “dry.”

The worst thing to track with is Chorus or De-tuner in the cans, but a real fat reverb will do the same. I have received a new CD and wanted to cry when I heard the sax all bright and sharp and lame. How could I not hear that? I found it was hard to tell. The coolest effects will go on the guy recording right then, in the studio; but, if you are just another side-man playing on a tune, are you gonna get that expensive TC or Lexicon when the mix goes down? NO.

Go dry, make it sound good when it wants to sound lame, then they can’t make you sound like a goof after you leave by mixing your sax all lame.

Dry and loud. I go into to listen and always ask to have the sax turned up a lot. I know it will be back in the mix, but I want to hear it way up to make sure it sounds great even under a microscope.

As a final thought. I have done everything I can think of and still had a bad surprise when a CD is released months later. I have had a session go great, but 2 days later the sax is not working against the track. I always tell the guys to give me a call if it gets weird with the track or something ends up not working out. I have gone in and retracked for free. I have done too many sessions fixing and replacing “famous” sax players tracks. I could sit back and let my head swell with who I have replaced over the years.

Bottom line…

It was not the player but the recording environment. Could have been the producer going for something that ended up sucking; either way, the sax player got dogged and I was replacing the track. I have learned a lot from that. I don’t want to be replaced or dogged by guys in the business; especially when it was them being stupid.

I always offer to come out and fix anything they need. It does not happen much anymore but always feels right when it does. I don’t what to sound lame and they will love you for the professional concern.

Rambling, but you get the idea…

Dry, loud, helpful and guarantied.

SAXBOY

[sessionsax]

I agree with the other posts whole heartedly. I would just like to add, make sure that you go into the sound room before the session is over and hear whats coming through the monitors.

I have yet to have a set of headphones that even come close to what actually makes it to tape.

I used to take what was coming through the phones as the gospel, now I always ask for a short runthrough of the track and listen to the result in the soundroom.

Also, the info given in the other posts concerning the mic postioning is critical. Sound engineers are usually great with getting good sounds from the rhythm section instruments -- It is usually the other way around with the overdub instrumentation.

Build a good repoire with the sound engineer -- so that you can give suggestions without ticking him off.

Also, this should be obvious, but warm you reeds, horns, and embrochure up before you arrive.

[ferrari]

Thanks a million guys. You've saved me countless hours of frustration. One of the reasons for posing this question in the first place is that I didn't like what I heard on playback... It just didn't sound like me, and my keyboard player agreed. Now I need to reread everything twice, but it sounds like good stuff. I'll let ya'll know my results. Thanks again.

[ferrari]

Any suggestions on E.Q. I seem to remember an article by someone on the old forum that suggested decreasing the highs and increasing the lows for a more natural sound. This was in a live situation. I don't know if this translates in the studio. Thanks in advance.

[Anonymous]

A word to the wise... Don't ever TELL your engineer how to do anything!

Politely suggest! He has you by the short and curleys and he knows it!

[saxboy]

On EQ:
The use of EQ should be avoided if possible when tracking sax. If the sax sounds bright, the mic placement should be explored.

EQ live: I place the mic right at the bell and usually roll the highs a bit. Many guys curve the EQ on the PA to boost highs and lows which never really helps the sax sound good so I find a need to roll highs and boost mids to fix the PA EQ curve. I almost always roll the lows since Sop, Alto, Ten don’t even get close to these frequencies. If you put a clip-on mic on the sax, you can get a real thump sound from the lows turned up with every finger move, especially on a big sound system. I always hit the keys to see how loud the thuds are and ask the sound guy to roll them until it is not real loud. We don’t need a bass drum thud going off with every key stroke.

Sound guys and engineers are people that do need to be handled with care. I agree with the above post, that we should not just tell them what to do, and yes, they can really screw you if you are being a jerk. Be kind, friendly and make suggestions.

SAXBOY

[ferrari]

Just got back from messin' around in the studio,and I used everyone's advice. I recorded dry and also had the headphones dry. Dry headphones is hard at first, but as saxboy mentioned, you really get to concentrate on intonation, and it made a HUGE difference in quality.
I think I may have made it sound like I'm in a pro studio. I'm not. Both situations are home studios but very well set up. Today I was at my brothers studio where he's using Cakewalk Sonar XL. We recorded with my Sennheiser 421 and his new Behringer B-2, and compared to see which mic most faithfully reproduced the sound of my 41' 10M, 5* Florida STM with #4 Vandoren Javas. As I mentioned we recorded dry and then added the effects, which were a dark plate reverb with a compressor. The Behringer sounded pretty darn good, but the sound was not complex enough harmonically. The Sennheiser was just the opposite;rich and complex but WAY too bright and edgy. The B-2 btw is a condenser.
I hope I've explained this accurately enough. I suppose my next step should be to mess with the mic placement to get the desired effect from the Sennheiser, because I think it is the one I'll be using.
Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[Media Lint]

I concur with avoiding EQ. I hardly ever use it. When I do, it's often a matter of a low end roll off to reduce mud. I use the mic on a stand, not a clip on. When recording, I am pretty convinced this is better. I point the mic toward the bell, more accurately between the LH low Bb and the bell, not down the bell, about 8-10". Judicious use of a compressor/limiter can help bring up the overall presence of the sax in the mix without having it clip meters. Abuse of a compressor/limiter will, on the other hand, make the sound take on an unnatural "pumping" sound. Some software plugins are particuarly good at intelligent compression.

I use Sonar myself, however I will probably soon convert to a VST friendly platform. My extensive use of plugin (soft synths, effects) and certain issues I have with Sonar have led this long time Cakewalk loyalist to seek greener pasteur.

As for the FX through the phones while tracking: I don't do this. I used to do it for vocals, and learned to do it otherwise. When I started recording saxophone I used basically the same technique, which may seem odd but works for me: I pan all the instruments to one channel. When recording I uncup the other channel and slide it back on my head leaving that ear exposed to the room. In this manner I am hearing the actual sound from the room with one ear (left in my case) and am tracking the music with my right ear. It may not be easy to get used to this, but I find it works well for myself.

[saxboy]

Glad things are going well for you Ferrari!

Pulling 1 ear off the headphones can help monitor your sound better than wearing both sides. I just finished a Latin Horn Session and when playing with a section, it always helps to hear the guys in the room while you track..

I opt to leave both sides of the phones on if the studio is pretty cool and the mix is good to track to. If the phones are lame, I always free up an ear to make sure it is not me.

Tracking dry is not very flattering, but will help insure the track is going to work when they do add effects. If it sounds good dry, it can only sound richer wet!

As far as mic placement; you can start with moving the mic toward the Bb/B – key side of the sax. It will get darker pretty quick and you should find a place that the 421 will sound present yet full. Once you feel good about the sound make a mental note of where you are and the mic is placed; track a short section of music and then check to see if it is what you want. Pointing the mic down the bell is the most present and bright sound; moving the mic off access toward the keys or bowl will make it dark pretty quick.

It can help if you have a great sax CD to compare your recorded tone against. It might give you some ideas and certainly an objective opinion.

Enjoy the experimentation and work hard to remember what works and what does not work.

SAXBOY

[Anonymous]

I should probably add that, possibly, "your sound" exists only in your head and blaming the engineer for not getting it....well, it's just not getting it!

You have the ultimate responsibility of supplying the raw material!

[saxboy]

I would love to be your engineer. Live or Studio.

Ever been a side man on a session. It is amazing how a studio can destroy a great sound or solo.

SAXBOY

[kgiles]

I agree with the previous posts as well. Avoid using eq to tape . Proper mic placement and microphone selection will eliminate the need to use eq.

[Anonymous]

For the record, my comments are not aimed at anyone, and particularly not one who doesn't care to hear them!

Good tone is good tone! An engineer can only nudge it a little one way or the other! If there are major imperfections in your performance, you might be dependant on the engineer, but, if you've done your job properly, the engineer's contribution is mere frosting! He, for the most part, can't help your intonation, for example, so it would seem prudent to play in tune!

[Bill Mecca]

I respectfully have to add, that while you, the player, are ultimately responsible for the tone that comes out of your horn, the "engineer" is responsible for getting that sound recorded as accurately as possible.

I have heard some players that sound great in person, sound pretty crappy on recordings done by "engineers" who obviously haven't a clue about recording saxes.

I have also heard some guys with that sound horrible in person, sound horrible when recorded by a competent engineer, what's the phrase? " You can't shine, sh...."

[ferrari]

Well, for the record, I sound great live. I'm not a pro but I've been playing for over 30 years and have been in plenty of bands. It's not only my opinion I'm intereseted in because there is always a bias there, but I'm also after my keyboard player's opinion, because after playing together for 8 years he pretty much knows what I sound like. So if it doesn't cut it with him...

All good comments and points guys. As soon as I get the mic thing dialed in, and record some of our original stuff, I'll post some mp3s in the appropriate place for listening. Thanks again Ya'll.

[saxboy]

Ferrari,
How is it going?
Just checking old posts and wanted to encourage an update or soundclip.
SAXBOY

[ferrari]

Saxboy; I'm going into the studio this Sat. for an all day session. I went over a couple of weeks ago to dial in my sax and I'm really excited about the results. This is going to be fun! I'll post soon and let you know how it turned out. Thanks again for all your input.

[Morry]

I don't remember what brand it was, but when I was in a band and we were picking up some recording and PA gear, we lucked up on this great old tube mic. Man, if you can find a vintage tube mic to use, you won't believe the great, warm sound.

[ferrari]

Well, things are getting better in the studio. Using my Sennheiser 421 and recording dry and dry in the phones seems to be the ticket. There is some volume fluctuation with my tenor, which I think means move the mic further away and increase the gain accordingly. I try not to move too much when I'm playing, but with the tight pattern of the Sennheiser I think moving away from the mic should help. We,re using Cakewalk Sonar. We're adding a dark plate with a .25 mix, the "horn section" pre select for compression, and rolling the highs for the eq. This, so far, seems to give me the sound of my 10M when I'm playing live. This is all brand new to me, and very cool, but dang, recording is hard work; my hat's off to you guys that do this a lot.

[Stencilman]

ferrari, thanks for the update. Studio work does take certain skills - it is all about control. Since most of the work I do lately is in the studio with both sax and vocals, I like practicing at home with my favorite mics and computer rolling so I can review intonation and support problems. It is amazing how out of tune I can be but not hear it until playback.

[saxboy]

Glad things are working for you. I am always amazed how much I hear when I listen back too. Pitch is so funny. You can learn a lot doing things the way you are. I even find live tapes can be a real surprise. It is like giving yourself a lesson. Any time you record and listen back you an give yourself a lesson with a third party perspective.
It is a great learning tool! I need to get back in the habit.
The other thing that seems wierd is how different things sound the next day. When you are listening back, right after tracking, things can sound pretty good because the energy of the performance is still in your blood. When a day goes by and you sleep on it, the whole thing can feel different the next day. I have tracked solos I thought were amazing. I get the CD months later and it is all sharp or pretty lame. It is very odd.
The good thing is, the more you do it, the more you get a feel for how to track, what works and what solos you are going to think suck next week and next year.
This is why I do things the way I do now. Tracking dry, mic placement instead of EQ, headphone mix while tracking, when to use click, ect... You end up making personal rules based on experience, and now "YOU THE MAN!"
Keep up the tracking and post those experiences,
SAXBOY

[sessionsax]

saxboy,

Yeah I know what you mean -- A few months back I was doing some recording for a Jazz Vocalist (Sound like Sinatra Kind of thing) and thought I had laid down some amazing tracks on sax and flute. I thought to myself that I had finally "arrived" and that I had a piece of work that I could proudly use to demo my skills.

Well, after the final mix, my alto came out sounding like a clarinet and the flute sounds like a penny whistle.

The performance is not bad, but I am still in search of the one session that I feel will be the keeper.

Nashville is a wierd town. I don't get to do very much of the Sanborn/Marienthal thing that I have practiced for all of my life.

I am still praying for that one "me" session. I hope things are better in Cali

[saxboy]

Until you are spending your money, it is a lifetime quest. We're all there.
SAXBOY

[ferrari]

Thanks for all the support guys. Saxboy you are right on about the learning tool aspect of this whole thing. Sometimes during playback I'm blown away by how good I sound, like I can't believe it's me. But a lot of the time I'm hearing intonation that's off, or sucky articulation, or running out of breath on a long passage. Or my favorite, where I'm in the groove, really cookin' and I screw up royally. But I'm having a gas doing this with my brother who seems happy with an occasional tithe from the liquor store as compensation. As soon as I have something respectable to share I'll post some of our work. Thanks again.

[kgiles]

Sessionsax .

Have you done some sessions on the row ? I didn't think they called sax players in Nashville.

[Anonymous]

I think the question is not "if", but "what" they are called!

[sessionsax]

kgiles,

There is a lot more music going on in Nashville besides country. I get calls for mainly Christian oriented artists. Nashville is the contemporary Christian capital of the world.

Take a look at Mark Douthits resume -- search for him on the web. That will give you an idea of the kind of career a sax player can have in Nashville.

Marks the A list first call guy out here -- hopefully in time, I will earn a good reputation as well.

Nashville is also becoming a strong center for contemporary jazz.

You can catch Kirk Whalum, Jeff Coffin (Bela Fleck), or Larry Carlton in the clubs here and occassionally -- at a music store 8)

[kgiles]

Bill Frizell is there as well isn't he ? Man I need to leave ktown.

[kgiles]

Interesting he studied with Coker. How did you get into the session scene ? I've heard it's a closed circle of cats that get sessions in Nashville .

[ferrari]

I'm going back into the studio tomorrow after a 5 month hiatus, and dug this thread up to remind myself of all the things I learned here. After listening to recordings done earlier this year and trying to figure out optimum mic placement, levels,etc. , I'm realizing what a great tool recording is for self-evaluation. I've been analyzing my phrasing during solos as well as my dynamics, and have been learning a lot that will help me during my practice sessions. If your ego can stand the pain, listening to your own recordings can be very insightful.

[sessionsax]

kgiles

This is an extremly late post, but here is how you get into the session scene. Networking. Networking.Networking. Next -- talent. But mainly Networking.

Its all about who you know, it is a club mentality. The one thing that I am fighting right now is that I am known as a part timer. I keep a day job, and naturally -- there is favoritism to the session musicians that are full timers.

But again, its all about having the right skills to meet the need -- just like any other job. Also, you have to be easy to work with -- hard working -- and willing to go the extra mile and step outside of your confort zone.

When folks are paying you, you have to give them what they want and you have to do it quickly -- as their money is on the line.

When I first aspired to be a session muscian, I thought that I would be laying down all of the cool screaming alto solos and getting my name on tons of big name records.

Well, that hasn't happened yet, and I have been at it here for 3 years. I end up doing tons of flute and clarinet work on strange projects that noone that I hang with would be likely to buy (Southern Gospel --- or strange hard to find Christmas projects) -- you get the idea.

Once you are in, you get more of the cool stuff, but until then -- its feast and famine. And a lot of times, its playing stuff that you don't care for.

There are also tons of no-name artists that are doing demos and that is a starting place. It puts you in the studios to meet the people that can make a difference.

I actually get excited now when I am asked to do a soprano thing that sounds like Kenny G, because it is at least in the ball park.

It is hard to eclipse the guys that have been here 20 years doing this stuff. They do get the prime sessions. But, slowly and surely, I am getting calls for some of the upscale session work. It truly is about meeting the right people and making them like you first -- then show them what you can do on your horn.

Also, you have to have the basic pro skills and it helps greatly to be a spot on sight reader. Theres actually more money in the section work stuff than there is as a soloist. Also, everything is in concert pitch, so be able to transpose. And, tone and pitch -- they have to be spot on as well.

If an engineer has to use pitch adjustment software on you very often, you will find the gigs becoming harder to find.

And lastly, leave your ego at the door!