Why Eb and Bb?

[cann0nba11]

Has anyone done the research to figure out why Adolphe decided to create instruments tuned to Eb and Bb? Why not C? Was he trying to match Bb brass instruments? Why not F like the French Horn?

It makes you go hmm...

[Carl H.]

There is a ton of info on this out there. There were C & F orchestral horns, and Bb & Eb military band horns. Try google for more info.

[Pgraves]

Might partially explain:


Makes you go owww...

"As a boy in early 19th century Belgium, Adolphe Sax was struck on the head by a brick. The accident-prone lad also swallowed a needle, fell down a flight of stairs, toppled onto a burning stove, and accidentally drank some sulfuric acid. When he grew up, he invented the saxophone."
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,906349,00.html?promoid=googlep

[KenK]

Yes, he made a family of saxes in Eb and Bb to match the instruments common to military brass bands. He also envisioned a family of C/F instruments for the orchestra, and he might have made a few, but orchestras at that time never really accepted the saxophone, whereas military bands thought the saxophone was just what was needed (imaging having to march outdoors with bassoons and oboes).

[cmelodysax]

Sorry KenK, but I think you'll find he started with a bass sax in C, possibly to replace the Ophicleide. The original orchestral pitches of C and F, however, because the sax did not flourish in the orchestral environment, were phased out in favour of the band pitches of Bb and Eb.

'C' momentarily crept back in during the C-Melody boom years, but didn't last. So, if the early orchestra's had been more adventurous and welcoming in the use of C and F saxophones, you might all still be playing saxes in those keys now ! :)

[hakukani]

Nothing can replace an Ophecleide! I have the Norrington Symphonie Fantastique recording, the Oph is the coolest!:D

[Reedsplinter]

Sorry KenK, but I think you'll find he started with a bass sax in C, possibly to replace the Ophicleide. The original orchestral pitches of C and F, however, because the sax did not flourish in the orchestral environment, were phased out in favour of the band pitches of Bb and Eb.

'C' momentarily crept back in during the C-Melody boom years, but didn't last. So, if the early orchestra's had been more adventurous and welcoming in the use of C and F saxophones, you might all still be playing saxes in those keys now ! :)

Bass was first. This territory has been well discussed on other threads here -- use the search feature.

[cmelodysax]

Reedsplinter, I was being diplomatic when I said "I think you'll find he started with a bass sax in C", I do know that to be a fact - what C enthusiast wouldn't ? Do you want this thread to stop ?

hakukani - are you taking the p*** out of Ophecleide's, and possibly me as well ? :) I've not noticed your sense of humour before :D

[hakukani]

Reedsplinter, I was being diplomatic when I said "I think you'll find he started with a bass sax in C", I do know that to be a fact - what C enthusiast wouldn't ? Do you want this thread to stop ?

hakukani - are you taking the p*** out of Ophecleide's, and possibly me as well ? :) I've not noticed your sense of humour before :D

My GAS attacks have included the desire for an Ophecleide, Sarrusophones, and Uileann pipes. So far I've not been able to talk Ms. hakukani into releasing the funds for these.:D

My school has an old Holton Cmelody. Even though I know they're supposed to be POS, this one seems to play pretty well.

[Gandalfe]

My GAS attacks have included the desire for an Ophecleide, Sarrusophones, and Uileann pipes. So far I've not been able to talk Ms. hakukani into releasing the funds for these.I've played a sarrusophone before and was not impressed. Maybe it'd grow on a person, who knows.

[hakukani]

I've played a sarrusophone before and was not impressed. Maybe it'd grow on a person, who knows.

I've wanted one since I saw/heard Earl Dumler on a contrabass sarrusophone (he also played baritone oboe) with Zappa's big band in the mid 70s

[cann0nba11]

Bass was first. This territory has been well discussed on other threads here -- use the search feature.

Like most other forums, the search feature stinks. Unless you know the exact phrase you end up with hundreds of matches, none of them obvious matches. ;)

[Dave Dolson]

cannOnba11: It doesn't look like anyone answered your question. I recall reading the answer somewhere here on SOTW but darned if I can recall the answer OR how to find it.

After all these years, I just accept that it's that way. DAVE

[gary]

cannOnba11: It doesn't look like anyone answered your question.There is a ton of info on this out there. There were C & F orchestral horns, and Bb & Eb military band horns. Try google for more info.
"Saxophone History". It's all there. ;)

[cmelodysax]

Has anyone done the research to figure out why Adolphe decided to create instruments tuned to Eb and Bb? Why not C? Was he trying to match Bb brass instruments? Why not F like the French Horn?

It makes you go hmm...

cann0nba11, Dave is right, no-one has really answered your question, so I'll try - although there are loads of internet sources, but some are like wading thro' treacle... I already mentioned he did produce a C Bass as his first sax. It's also obvious that to produce a complete range of saxophones with the same fingering, when just having them an octave apart in C would only make a handfull - you have several different keys, as is also the case with clarinets etc.

To quote from several internet sources - Adolphe Sax patented the saxophone in France on June 28, 1846. The patent was for a period of fifteen years. The patent covered two groups of instruments with a total of 14. They were the E flat sopranino, F sopranino, B flat soprano, C soprano, E flat alto, F alto, B flat tenor, C tenor, E flat baritone, B flat bass, C bass, E flat contrabass, and F contrabass. Each instrument was of a different size. One group of seven was pitched alternatively in F and C, for orchestral use. The other group of seven was pitched in E-Flat and B-Flat for military band use.

Whether, in hindsight, it's sensible to say "OK, we'll change the pitch of the saxes, but, whatever instrument we play, all 3 left hand fingers make (for us) a G", or just to leave us to remember where the concert notes are on each differently pitched horn, and learn the notes by their concert pitch, is a matter for debate. I prefer the former argument.

C and F seems natural for orchestra, and I hope some historian will confirm that the stranger Bb/Eb keys were influenced by the existence of Bb trumpets etc. in marching bands, so it was just keeping to some (almost) multi-standard ? I seem to remember reading somewhere that in tests, one pitch produced the most 'robust' sound of all, with most resonance, Bb maybe ?

Don't forget, this was at a time when orchestral horn players carried a bag of differently pitched tuning slides, to have a wide variety of natural keys available on their horns by just changing the slide. Enter the Ophecleide, eh hakukani, got one yet ?

The rest is history, as I said before, orchestral use was limited, band use grew amazingly, so the C/F's died, and the Bb/Eb's flourished.... Except for a short C revival in the 20's.

So, in answer to your question, he originally decided to create them in a multitude of keys, not just Bb/Eb. And, although his first 'production' sax was the bass in C, who knows what his very first thought was ? All I know is, that I'm glad Adolphe Sax didn't wake up one overcast morning, and decide that his new inventions should be pitched in Db and Gb ! :)

OK, all you historians - rip it to shreds.....:(

P.S. - just seen Gary's five-word answer.... I started typing long before that ;)

[Sasquatch]

Like most other forums, the search feature stinks. Unless you know the exact phrase you end up with hundreds of matches, none of them obvious matches. ;)


I couldn't agree with you more. For some around here the pet peeve is folks that don't use the search function. My personal pet peeve is folks that answer every post with "Use the search function.":evil:

[Charlie61554]

what is an ophcleide?

[mlscnr]

what is an ophcleide?
A wingless bird with hairy feathers.

No, wait; that's an apteryx...

Try this: http://www.ophicleide.com/

[Gandalfe]

What a beautiful looking and sounding instrument. Thanks for sharing that link!

[hakukani]

what is an ophcleide?

From wikipedia:

'The Ophecleide is a rare predecessor of the modern-day tuba. It is sometimes called for in orchestral scores, notably in Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique. It was created in 1821 by an Irish bugle maker. The name is derived from the Greek "ophis" (meaning serpent) and "kleis" (to cover). The Ophecleide was a brass instrument that used pads and keys much like a saxophone. It could be made in single-coil in the shape of a bugle, or in a larger, upright variety with between 9 and 11 keys. Today the instrument is rare, though it is enjoying a bit of a revival. It is made in a variety of sizes, from the alto size known as the quinticlave and pitched in E-flat and F, to the ginormous contrabass in E-flat.'

[mlscnr]

Several listed for sale here: http://www.pipeline.com/~hgraham/keyedbrass.htm

Including one made by Sax (Charles Joseph).

[NitroJoe]

Wow! I've been educucated. All this time I thought they made saxes in Eb and Bb just to make my life difficult!

[Charlie61554]

those are cool:)