Kohlert Stencil Confusion

[TommyD69]

I have been reading as much as I can find about Kohlert saxophones, specifically 55, 57, 58, and 59's. I have seen web articles stating that the 50 somethings were stencils, I have seen other articles that said they were real Kohlerts made by Kohlert. I know great strides have been made by some dedicated sax men out there who are trying to document these horns for the rest of us to enjoy, but I am still confused about stencils and the keilwerth connection, and what is a REAL Kohlert. Finally, If I can find someone who is willing, does anyone think trading my YTS-62II for a Kohlert '57 is a "good trade"? I really want one of these horns!

[hornimus]

If it's the sound you've experienced and must have, no arguments. But if you haven't played one, best that you do so before getting too serious about swapping. The Kohlert might feel lighter, neck angle will still be comfortable, keywork swift, pearl touches large, LH table spatula heavy (unless you disable the articulation toggle), and the RH side keys will be far north of what you are used to.

[spiderjames]

In 1956, Kohlert sold a stencil of an Amati that was essentially a Keilwerth Tone King. I had one briefly and it had the JK logo on the back below the thumbhook. These are not true Kohlerts and technically not true keilwerths either but are identical to the tone kings. the Kohlert horns that preceded and followed these are better IMO. Kohlert also stencilled horns for dozens of different companies including Sears and Robuck (silvertone). I

personally would prefer a Kohlert 57 to a Yamaha 62II but I don't have any idea what these Yamahas are worth. You might be trading down in monetary terms. I think a 57 in good condition is worth maybe $800.00 average? They actually sell well above and below that. They tend to be all over the place in price. I am judging this from EBay sales that I have seen.

[xax]

I have been reading as much as I can find about Kohlert saxophones, specifically 55, 57, 58, and 59's. I have seen web articles stating that the 50 somethings were stencils, I have seen other articles that said they were real Kohlerts made by Kohlert. I know great strides have been made by some dedicated sax men out there who are trying to document these horns for the rest of us to enjoy, but I am still confused about stencils and the keilwerth connection, and what is a REAL Kohlert. Finally, If I can find someone who is willing, does anyone think trading my YTS-62II for a Kohlert '57 is a "good trade"? I really want one of these horns!
Hey Tommy,
I'm as confused as you are...I have seen Kohlert '57s (and stencils)with 2 different types of necks (the "wattle" neck and Martin-ish neck), 2 different pinky tables, 2 different types of bell/bow joints and (I think) 2 different types of F# key mechanics...!? :?

[spiderjames]

There was a distinct progression in design through the 50s. The winnenden had left hand bell keys, the pinky keys were squarish like the later '57. Man in the moon neck.

The 55 was like the Winnenden with rounded pinky table and less elaborate keyguards. M/I/T/M neck

The 56 has the Amati/Keilwerth Tone King stencil. not a true Kohlert.

The 57 switched to RH bell keys and the pinky cluster from the Winnenden. M/I/T/M/ neck.n Keyguards changed to sheet metal type with adjustable felts.

In 58-59 The pinky cluster changed again with an extension on the Bb Like older Conns or Kings from the 20s. The Eb/C keys became more rounded.

In the sixties the man in the moon neck went away.

All except the Amati have the distinct Kohlert bell to body brace.

Most of the horns that Kohlert stencilled for other companies fall in the post 57 category with some exceptions. There are some 55 and 57 stencils out there. I have never seen any earlier stencil but I am reasonable sure they do exist since most other companies were doing the same.

Some of the styles may crossover years as well. For example; I have seen older looking horns (56?) that looked like the 57 with a tunable neck. Perhaps not the original neck? Stencils may use older styles. Companies tend to use up old parts that are in stock etc...

[michaelbaird]

I've got a 57 alto in need of a repad, but I can tell that once it is repadded, it will be as good as any horn out there. I would trade it if the Kohlert is in good shape and doesn't need alot of work. A $400.00 repad is no big deal for a horn like that and I highly recommend Selmer domed resonator pads, if that is all it needs then definitely trade it or just try to talk them down.

[spiderjames]

What's a Yamaha 62II worth?

[TommyD69]

I have my 72 Selmer Mark VI alto (that my mom bought for me 35 years ago), that I will NEVER get rid of. So another Alto is out of the question (according to my wife) :cry: I really want a tenor (that's what I play most of the time now), and it seems that ANY Kohlert mid to late 50's tenor is harder to find than BIG FOOT! But, I will continue my search. Also, I agree, A trade of my YTS-62II for a Kohlert '57 tenor is a little (lot) lop sided (plus I have become dependant on the high F# key), and I have no idea why someone would want to trade a '57 away, but, I will keep searching... Just don't tell my wife!!! :D

[TommyD69]

I paid 1,800 for my YTS-62II four years ago (brand new), they are up to 2,500 new now. I am super anal about my horns, and my 62II still looks brand new. I have played it alot during "band season" here in Ohio, and I don't practice as much as I sould, but I DO practice (gotta keep my chops in working order). Used, I have no idea what a 62II is worth. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.... Dont tell my wife that either!!!

[spiderjames]

Your yamaha may be worth more than a Kohlert 57 at this point. You might be better off selling it to fund the Kohlert and pocket the difference. or keep both.

I have a couple of 59 Kohlert stencils that I be overhualing soon and will be up for sale reasonably cheap if you would be interested. the stencils are identical to their branded counterparts. let me know if you would be interested.

[michaelbaird]

I have a Deluxe tenor that I bought for $500.00 off of ebay and had it repadded with domed resonators. It is my back-up tenor to my VI. I missed it, had to play it last night after reading this thread. It is so damn solid and has such a great complex sound. I can make things vibrate in the room.

[TommyD69]

I hear ya brother... I am vibrating just thinking about it....

[michaelbaird]

Check this out http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150175885826&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=005 I have high hopes! I have a Kohlert bass clarinet that really vibrates too!

[michaelbaird]

Man, The piccolo arrived today. OMG, it is everything I hoped for. It's a damn shame the original Kohlerts aren't making instruments anymore

[Peterogping]

Tommy,
Kohlert being German, the best ebay site to look for Kohlerts is ebay.de. However, I must admit that the tenor 57 never shows up. I have looked for two years. I found my 1954 Winnenden there two years ago, a superbe horn. I doubt the 57 can be much better, but I am still curious. Winnenden models have come up a couple of times.
Good luck with your search.

[michaelbaird]

Here you go: http://cgi.ebay.com/Saxophone-Vintage-Kohlert-Tenor_W0QQitemZ180179462854QQihZ008QQcategoryZ1623 2QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[TommyD69]

Already got this horn in my watch list.... Looks like a 1954 Winnenden stencil based on the serial number. The left side bell keys, the wire key guards, the "man in the moon" neck, and that distinctive bell support all point towards an authentic Kohlert early 50's horn. And if it plays as good as Peterogping '54 does, I will be pleased!! Just wish the seller accepted PayPal... That’s the only negative I can find..... :D

[hornimus]

Already got this horn in my watch list.... Looks like a 1954 Winnenden stencil based on the serial number. The left side bell keys, the wire key guards, the "man in the moon" neck, and that distinctive bell support all point towards an authentic Kohlert early 50's horn. And if it plays as good as Peterogping '54 does, I will be pleased!! Just wish the seller accepted PayPal... That’s the only negative I can find..... :D

In the description he does state that he accepts "Pay Pal transfers".

[michaelbaird]

You just get addicted to the sound. If I was going to play classical, it would be my Deluxe Tenor with a good hard rubber mouthpiece.

[spiderjames]

Already got this horn in my watch list.... Looks like a 1954 Winnenden stencil based on the serial number. The left side bell keys, the wire key guards, the "man in the moon" neck, and that distinctive bell support all point towards an authentic Kohlert early 50's horn. And if it plays as good as Peterogping '54 does, I will be pleased!! Just wish the seller accepted PayPal... That’s the only negative I can find..... :D

I am watching this one as well. Don't think I'm going to bid though. I have enough saxes laying about to fill up my spare time. This one should be a nice player for sure.

The last one of these silvertones I saw on EBay finish around $800.00. The word's gettin' around.

Maybe we should all keep quiet:D

[michaelbaird]

I'm not going to bid on this one. I need another sax like another hole in my head. I just got the Kohlert metal clarinet also...I have high hopes for it being a worthy specimen as well.

[Peterogping]

Tommy, Apart from the rolled toneholes, it looks exactly like mine, just a little more shiny. Good luck with the auction.