sax, snoring and throat surgery

[Bloo Dog]

I have often wondered about the relationship between playing the sax and snoring. It seems reasonable that the soft palate would become stretched from playing after 20-30 years. At the same time, the muscles which support the soft palate are also developed in the process of playing saxophone, so the soft palate is lifted.

I believe that there's a correlation, though i can find no empirical evidence. I think that there may be a connection between quitting playing the saxophone and snoring. The throat muscles begin to sag from lack of use, thus contributing to an obstructed airway.

For two years, i debated whether to have throat surgery for my snoring. This came at a time as i was resuming playing after a ten-year hiatus. Doctors told me that the surgery would probably greatly affect my playing.

Last month, I had my tonsils removed, the soft palate trimmed, and some other tissue removed. Though the tissue is still healing, and i have not played saxophone yet, I believe that I'll have little trouble resuming playing again. I can already blow air from my lungs to my closed mouth and not have any air escape through my nose (my biggest fear).

By the way, the surgery wasn't nearly as painful as some people (including three doctors) told me it would be. I've had no bleeding at all.

I'll keep you posted on this. i am sure others have wondered about this.

[Ian]

I trust the surgery works out well for you. Just a word of caution - there is very little evidence for all manner of throat surgeries in the context of very severe snoring and sleep apnoea - I mean evidence of meaningful benefit. If your snoring means you have sleep apnoea (apnea, american) it could be associated with symptoms including daytime drowsiness, fatigue etc. Surgery in those cases does very little, but very simple effective remedies are available. You may find a little internet research on the sleep apnea syndrome and its treatment very enlightening. If it is an issue for you, then dealing with it can really dramatically improve your life!

Perhaps its just plain old snoring and trimming the palate will cut down the volume for your partner!?

Happy, fast healing to you. Regards.

[gary]

Blooddog - I have severe sleep apnoea. I had surgery about twelve years ago to remove all of that soft tissue. The surgery paralyzed one of my vocal cords and the apnoea returned after about five years. My apnoea is so severe I can only sleep with an air pressure machine.

Ian's post is spot on. For me, I didn't know how severe a problem it was until it was cleared up. That is, I was constantly tired, concentration was difficult, not to mention the abrupt gasping for air at night that taxed my heart.

I understand there is the more common apnoea which is related to the blockage of air in the throat but also a less frequent type which the involuntary nervous system just forgets to tell your system to breathe. That one is very dangerous. I am blessed with both. Defiintely keep an eye on it.

To answer your question, I have not noticed any relationship to playing better or worse with the "obstructed" throat. For me before and after surgery and at the present, there has been no discernable effect on my playing.

[Bloo Dog]

I did a lot of reading on the procedure, and I have been told by doctors pretty much what you say, Ian. The literature shows contradictory results. I was seeing a neurologist for the apnea. He thought that the air obstruction issue was severe enough

I have the kind of apnea that you have, Gary. I tried the C-PAP machine and I just could not tolerate it. I also experienced severe atrial fibrillation which, I believe, had its roots in the apnea and loss of sleep.

It has been a month since the surgery and some interesting things have occurred: my blood pressure has normalized and stabilized; I sleep very well through the night and awaken feeling well; my irregular heart beat is not as irregular, and although I cannot tell for certain, I feel that the atrial fibrillation is probably greatly diminished. (I can usually tell when I am in a-fib).

I am no longer taking medication for the a-fib, and since I am still healing, I am not taking anticoagulants to reduce the change of stroke from the afib. Before the surgery, i was told to quit taking medication for my type 2 diabetes. Since my blood sugar level has been stable (and in the normal low range) I am no longer takng that medication.

I was having severe difficulty concentrating, so i was on medication for that as well. I quit taking that medication too. Within a month, I went from taking six medications to taking two. I feel better, I can sleep better, and I no longer fall asleep at my desktop (I am a writer and a photographer).

I have been through several sleep studies, and I expect to go through one more at some time in the future. I don't know if I still stop breathing in my sleep-- I probably do, but at least I don't have the problem of momentarily waking up when I experience air obstruction.

The pain from the surgery (trimming the palate, removal of the tonsils and uvula, repair of the pharynx [!] and removal of other tissue behind the uvula) was not what i expected. The back pain from the hospital bed was worse than the throat pain. I experienced almost no bleeding after I left recovery.

The good news is that (at this point) I can create a reliable seal to prevent air from escaping from my nose . I have not tried to play yet, but I feel that I will be able to play with no problems.

I am interested in reading about others' experiences with this surgery. Two ENT doctors told me that there was a good possibility that it would negatively affect my playing. I don't think it will.

This forum may be a good place for the gathering of information which could help the medical community.

[gary]

bloodog - I had that operation and I don't have any air leaking when I play. And I play trumpet too. Just some problems with food or liquid in my nose if I'm daydreaming when eating. But no real horn-playing-related problems.

By the way, you can get used to the CPAP, it's just a pain in the wazoo. And, er, it does wonders for your love life! :roll:

[Bloo Dog]

I tried and tried the C-PAP. It was horrible. If i were an astronaut, i could see wearing one of those things.

The insurance companies like them because they cost $1,000.00. My surgery cost $14,000.00.

[Bloo Dog]

So far, no problems. Just a little air leak in one part of the palate, but i believe that'll strengthen in time. I feel a little weakness in the palate area and i don't feel comfortable playing looooong sustained notes yet, but that will probably work its way out too.

Overall, it was a good decision. The snoring is gone; iIsleep all night long and I don't fall asleep ar the computertgbvkhpo,mj.nmviuxnxm sksoama xnbnvnbvbn;ljb'm

[chitownjazz]

I just had a lightbulb go off concerning this issue in the last few days. I thought before I started a new topic I would do a search and decided to revive this thread instead of starting a new one. There's another thread on the same subject floating around out there too.

I am beginning to think that there is a relationship between snoring, surgery, and playing as posited in the initial post.

I have often wondered about the relationship between playing the sax and snoring. It seems reasonable that the soft palate would become stretched from playing after 20-30 years. At the same time, the muscles which support the soft palate are also developed in the process of playing saxophone, so the soft palate is lifted.

My story is as follows. I played a lot up until about 25 years ago, then gave up the saxophone altogether. In the meantime, I developed a problem with snoring. My wife complained, and I finally had it checked out. I had only mild apnea, but the snoring disturbed my wife and actually I also would wake myself with the noise. I'm not significantly overweight, so that wasn't a factor. A couple of years ago I had a procedure called somnoplasty. This outpatient surgery is less radical than the serious cutting described above. I had my uvula trimmed with a laser, and the main somnoplasty consisted of essentially burning the soft palate. The idea is that after healing the palate's scar tissue is supposed to firm up and be less likely to vibrate noisily when asleep. By the way, although this is not nearly so invasive as the old snoring surgery, I found it to be a pretty painful recovery for 3 weeks or more. The procedure seemed to very significantly reduce the amount and volume of my snoring.

Here's where the story gets interesting, I hope. About 4 or 5 months ago I took up the saxophone again. Just in recent weeks I've begun to feel like I'm developing some control over my soft palate so that I can lift it and increase the resonance in my tone. And lo and behold, it seems that my snoring is making a comeback in this same time frame. It just occurred to me that the two things are probably related - I'm stretching the soft palate and as it gets more pliable again it's causing me to snore more.

Not proof I know, but I do think there may be something to this theory.

Now my poor wife doesn't have a moment's peace with my honking during the day and snoring at night. I haven't asked her which disturbs her more. :lol:

Glenn

[dpwadw]

About 6.5 years ago doctors removed my tonsils, uvula, trimmed my soft palate etc. Best thing I've ever done. I sleep well and quietly.

Horn playing was different afterward I'll admit, but I have adjusted well and am playing in the altissimo range even more than before.

From the varied responses on this thread it looks like everyone is different. For me however, without the surgery I'd probably be dead by now...there were few options. Saxes took a back seat.

Thankfully they're back in the front seat now!

[GuidoTJ]

I find that I only snore if I sleep on my back. It is worse if I have a clonazapam before bedtime. Problem is that if I sleep on my side then I pinch the nerves in my shoulders. Can't win! 8)