Alto Flute

[TomR]

Hey,
I've been given an alto flute (saterday),
and now they expect me to play it in the albert hall (monday):?
I'm being completly serious here :!:
Anyone got any tips :?:

[mostly alto guy]

Punt!

[paulwl]

If you don't have an exposed part, mime.

If you HAVE an exposed part, get a book called "How to play the flute" by Howard Harrison. I've had it for 3 days now and I can play that headjoint like nobody's business! (Unfortunately, the flute body hasn't been repadded since Hector was a pup, which has impeded my progress a bit...)

[MojoBari]

Long tones with a tuner. Beginners tend to get a flat low register. Which is probably the range you need to play in or the part would be for a C flute.

[Jack W.]

I thought I'd resurrect this post since I am having a GAS attack and predict buying an alto flute within a month. I was going to buy a Jupiter, since I've tried one and was impressed, but I was going to get the model with the curved headjoint (or both headjoints) as I am somewhat vertically challenged and I am more comfortable with the curved headjoint. But the tricky part is that the curved headjoint doesn't fit into the hard case, but is rather kept in a pouch outside the case. Since I don't like this one bit, my next choice is the Pearl alto flute.

Has anyone here tried one of these? I've heard good things about these horns. I used to have a Pearl C flute and workmanship seemed fine to me and my tech, but the sound wasn't what I was looking for.

Some will no doubt say that I should forget about these and instead buy a Yamaha or Altus, which I surely would if I had $4500+ to burn, but I don't. :P The initial reports I've heard on the Pearl alto flute have been that it is also a good buy for the price. Ultimately I will try one myself and report back, but I was just wondering if anyone else had got there first. :)

[Ivy]

I've heard from some alto flute players that one of the best ones for the money is the Prima Sankyo. Definitely worth a try- their regular flutes are very good. A friend who knows Ali Ryerson (alto flute specialist) and she prefers the Prima S. to the Haynes. I haven't experienced this horn firsthand. Good luck in satisfying your gas pangs.

[Gordon (NZ)]

But the tricky part is that the curved headjoint doesn't fit into the hard case, but is rather kept in a pouch outside the case.

I don't believe that Jupiter do not supply a case that fits the curved head, or even both heads. I believe your supplier probably bought in the curved head as an extra without getting the flute-with-curved-head-plus-case package.

[Jack W.]

I don't believe that Jupiter do not supply a case that fits the curved head, or even both heads. I believe your supplier probably bought in the curved head as an extra without getting the flute-with-curved-head-plus-case package.

True, it's hard to believe, but I have seen the Jupiter curved- (or both-) head alto flute package come in at the WW&BW in this fashion. A second supplier said that this is also how they see them come in. It does seem like a bad idea. Although I was told that I could get the Jupiter curved- (or both-) head alto flute package and just buy a Dimedici alto flute case, and then everything would fit inside the case. But at that point, you're at the price of the Dimedici alto flute anyway!

But now that I think about it, you are technically correct. Jupiter DOES supply an alto flute case built to accommodate both headjoints inside. The trouble is that they do not supply this case with the Jupiter-branded alto flutes (which anyway have a different key layout, see pics on web page for details), but only with the Dimedici-branded alto flutes. Bizarre, but apparently true.

Although my guess is that the percentage of potential alto flute buyers who prefer the curved headjoint, like myself, is relatively low. I've heard all sorts of reasons why the straight headjoint is better, but this is another topic of discussion.

It does seem that Pearl thought this out a little better, unless I'm way off base. Either way, as soon as I have the money, I'll see about getting one of these Pearl alto flutes in and let you all know what I find.

[Dr G]

I was going to buy a Jupiter... my next choice is the Pearl alto flute.

I was just wondering if anyone else had got there first. :)

Did you get your alto yet, Jack? I tried a friend's Jupiter and thought it "OK". I received a Pearl yesterday and was pleasantly overwhelmed - a HUGE difference in tone and response. I had to coax the Jupiter. In contrast, the Pearl alto feels like such a natural player. It's a keeper!

[Jack W.]

Actually I just got back from a trip to the WW&BW, where I tried the Jupiter and Pearl alto flutes. I have to agree, the Pearl had a much bigger and clearer sound. What is more, the Pearl case does indeed hold both headjoints, while the Jupiter case does not -- but I'd probably get the straight headjoint only anyway. The key layout on the Pearl is different from the Jupiter's, which in turn makes the Pearl comfortable for me to play with the straight headjoint, but not the Jupiter. The Pearl allows you to keep your left hand closer to your body than the Jupiter does.

I had a surprise when I tried the Allora alto flute for $1050, which had an even better sound -- but I thought it seemed light and cheaply made. (Given that I am no repair tech and cannot substantiate this beyond using the word "seemed".) However, all things considered, I still think the Pearl is a better buy for only $50 more. It has a silver lip plate (which allows for burnishing out of dings etc.) and arguably better intonation.

However, the GAS will have to wait since alas no money as per usual. I just bought a tenor sax and need to get my Powell C flute worked on. But as soon as I'm flush again, I'm planning on a Pearl alto flute purchase.

[T.S.]

I played the Pearl alto at the NAMM LA show in January, and for the money, you would be hard pressed to find a better playing and sounding alto.
The above mentioned Ms. Ryerson let me try her Prima, which is a superb instrument...rich, action incredibly smooth. She sounds incredible on it.

I just tried the Yamaha, and it easily rivals the Prima in sound, response and great keywork. It is absolutely the most ergonomically perfect alto I've played.

[Jack W.]

I thought I'd resurrect this post since I am having a GAS attack and predict buying an alto flute within a month.

OK, so it took me EIGHT months from last June! Talk about prolonging the agony of GAS. :) A Pearl 201S alto flute arrived today. This is the base model, with a straight headjoint only, silver lip plate and riser, and silverplated everywhere else. I had forgotten that this model also has pointed key arms, which is a nice aesthetic touch.

I picked this up from Flute World in Michigan, since the WW&BW was out of this model. My initial thoughts are that it's going to take me a while to get the best possible tone out, since alto flute seems to have different demands than C flute, in terms of both embouchure and air supply.

Even already, however, it's a fascinating sound. I think it's very likely that I'll wind up keeping it, since I doubt I can find a better instrument for my occasional use for less money. My main problem right now is that the third octave especially (and the second octave to a lesser extent) is REALLY BLOODY SHARP. But I suspect this is again due mostly to my embouchure. It appears one has to loosen up significantly more than in the first octave of the C flute, with a slower air stream and a "wider" and "flatter" embouchure opening. I am also trying to figure out some alternate third octave fingerings, which I seem to remember MojoBari having developed for the same reason.

I will post back if there are any interesting new developments with this horn. I also want to have my tech examine it and see what he says. I think learning to control this instrument will teach me a surprising amount about C flute playing too.

[Big Al]

Jack W.

Would like to ask you a question off forum but your www link does not work.

Please email me at

thelinks (at) kiski (dot) net

Thanks

[Gordon (NZ)]

You may also like to investigate getting a fuller sound on the second octave D, D#, E,F,F# by adding one of the trill keys, or lifting left first finger where it would not normally be lifted.

On some altos (mine is Emerson, greatly modified by myself to get it in tune!) this makes quite an improvement, although it doesn't work at all for soprano flute.

[Jack W.]

Big Al: Our website has changed URLs, so I just changed it in my profile. The link should work now. Thanks for reminding me!

Gordon: You seem to be correct about this. Lifting LH1 on E2 appears to help, though not so much on F2. I haven't tried the trill key thing yet. I will definitely try your suggestions the next time I have the horn out.

I took it out again earlier and I think I'm hooked. Oooh, the sound, the sound!!! :)

[Dr G]

Jack, how far out is the headjoint when you confirm pitch against a tuner? When I started on alto flute, the head was pulled out more than an inch to play in tune. Now that I've learned to adequately relax my embouchure, it's only out about 1/4".

Yes, "relaxed" is the key to getting the sound out of that instrument. BTW, I have the same model as you. I've no regrets over the choice of straight headjoint only. The curved head seems to be all about compromise - at the expense of intonation and a consistent scale.

Enjoy!

[Gordon (NZ)]

My Emerson is straight, and when I bought it the scale was disgracefully way out. Shame on Emerson on being so careless with guessing(!) where to put the tone holes!

[Dr_sax]

I got myself a selmer USA alto flute in 1987 for $ 900,-. It was used and I bought it in a small music store near San Diego when I was visiting the US. It sounds great and I never did regret this buy. It has a very full and round sound. Tried it next to an expensive altus and mine sounds much better :wink:

[Jack W.]

Jack, how far out is the headjoint when you confirm pitch against a tuner? When I started on alto flute, the head was pulled out more than an inch to play in tune. Now that I've learned to adequately relax my embouchure, it's only out about 1/4".

Now I feel better as I did have to pull it out nearly an inch anyway, maybe 3/4 inch. I have already experimented a bit with airstream speed and angle and it looks like an in tune third octave will sooner or later happen. I had forgotten that alto flute is likely to require a noticeably slower air stream than C flute. I have not spent more than a few minutes trying out a bass flute, but I remember it being even more extreme.

Gordon, I have to agree with you again about the situation with your Emerson alto flute (at least the way it came out of the box before your heroic, but ultimately successful, alterations) being shameful. It makes me wonder what design they copied their alto flute from, who did the math to determine the size and location of tone holes, and whether their slide rule was broken that day. :)

Back to the Pearl, I have not been over every note exhaustively with a tuner, but I haven't noticed anything very wrong with the scale, except again being sharp at about B2 and above, due no doubt mostly to my not having loosened up enough yet. I hope to bring this horn over to my tech later today to get his opinion on the construction of the instrument, as he is picky about such things and will let me know if there are problems.

I also want to try Gordon's suggestions more fully with the troublesome lower part of the second octave. I remember that bass flute is even dicier in that area. It seems it gets worse as the flute gets larger; piccolo doesn't strike me as being plagued with an E2 issue even to the extent that C flute is. One would think this is partly due to the presence of the footjoint, but I've noticed that even some Irish flutes that go down only to D, have a funny E2 also. I think it's sort of like the D2 issue on saxes, that gets worse as the sax gets larger.

[MojoBari]

There is a trap in playing too loose on these big flutes. You'll find that you are quite flat at E1 on down. I find it is best to develop an embouchure on the D2-F2 notes. Once you get these notes secure without cracking or air noise, you'll have a good basic embouchure. The low notes need to be played on the tight side to get the pitch up. The tone will initially not sound as nice as playing them loose, but you have to go for pitch first.

I have not played a Kingma, but those that have claim it is the only alto that has a in-tune 3rd register. All others are sharp using standard flute fingerings. Alternate fingerings work quite well, but are difficult to remember for part time players.

[Dr G]

Point well-taken. There is a big difference to me, now that I've had time on the silver pipe, between relaxed and too-loose. But you're right, it's a whole 'nother game than the soprano flute when it comes down to defining the embouchure and airstream. One shouldn't just pick it up and play. I consider it one of the most demanding "doubles" that I play. They should all get individual attention to developing a concept but alto flute is doubly demanding.

[Jack W.]

Day two of trials. I can only find two things about this flute that I think are a little bit questionable. First, the footjoint is a bit tight on its tenon. I suspect that this can be fixed easily. I tried applying some cork grease, and it made it worse! Otherwise, I can find no finishing defects with my (naked untrained) eye.

Second, I find the thumb keys a tiny bit too far from the headjoint. I have a tendency to hit the thumb Bb key instead of the regular B-natural key. Possibly I will be able to get used to this. The Flute World trial period is very generous and I have several days yet.

I am definitely getting hooked on the sound, which is going to make it awfully hard to send this instrument back even if I find a major fault somewhere.

Also, Gordon's idea about the trill keys works well. Adding the D# trill key makes E2, F2, and F#2 much more stable. Ditto for E3 and F3 (this model does not have a split E mechanism, which is fine with me). I'm working on finding trick third octave fingerings at least through G3 (as I don't expect to have to go any higher). The trick fingering I learned for F#3 (T1-3/-56(+C#)) is, just as on C flute, much more stable but still sharp.

[Ivy]

Jack, about the tight tenon- without any solvents, lubricants, try rubbing or polishing the tenon with a plain silver polishing cloth for about 5 minutes. Learned this from a tech and it really works.
Good Luck and enjoy!

[Gordon (NZ)]

Or rub a couple of stripes of candle wax on, then assemble, then disassemble, then remove all traces of the candle wax.

It must be oordinary white candle wax, and not one of those fancy beeswax candles.

The wax acts as a lubricant while being stiff enough to 'claim' a tiny amount of space betteen the tenon and socket, hence minutely shrinking the tenon.

[Jack W.]

I tried Ivy's polishing cloth idea, and it seems to have worked, or at least made it much better. I'll fine-tune it later. Gordon's idea sounds good too, only I don't have any candles at the moment.

As for the aforementioned thumb key issue, it looks like the thumb key touches have to go where they are, because of where the trill key cups are. Playtesting continues.

[bruce bailey]

I use #1500 emery paper on flutes to clean off the tenons. I am lucky that since I build flutes, I have the fitting tools, but for a final smooth fit, you may want to put a little baby powder on the joints as the talc tends to smooth out slight rough spots.

[Jack W.]

I will try the baby powder idea later if need be. I have decided that the alto flute is a keeper, and so now the right honorable Dr. G and I both have the same model of alto flute! :)

[Dr G]

Congrats on finding a keeper! I think the Pearl alto flute is one of the best buys out there. More people need an alto flute. 8)

[Bootman]

If you want real fun with intonation, try a BAss flute in the 3rd octave. Loose is what we're talking here but the sound, bigger, more haunting and resonant than the alto flute but conversely it is also softer. I owuld recommend trying a bass if you can. I accept responsibility for any outbreaks of GAS that these comments may cause.

[bruce bailey]

I think the Pearl Alto is the best one on the market today if money is an issue. A little over $1,000 and a french case and cover! I have one here for repairs this eek and the only flaw it the case is quite heavy. Used Bass flutes are a little hard to find, but being pitched in C makes life a lot easier. We have a used Emerson and a Yamaha and they still bring pretty good money because all of the flute ensembles want one. Also the new Jupiter Bass is a nice one although it does not have trill keys or a Bb shake.

[shmuelyosef]

Is the Pearl alto flute still the best deal? WWBW has it listed at $1499 with both heads for the model 201. I assume that it is not worth an additional $250 for the Sterling head, given that the 201 already has a sterling riser. Surprising that their price is the same for both heads as for either separately!!

Also, noticed that MusiciansFriend sells these for $1250 with just the straight head...is there any reason why I would want the curved head...I'm a reasonable sized male with long arms...

j

[Gordon (NZ)]

The Yamaha, presumably top-line alto flute is made from brass. Yamaha claims they found this to be better.

Once when I had an opportunity to try several similar-model, same-brand, alto flutes, I found that the sterling heads actually played worse than the plated heads. This was true for me in two different brands.

So I would not attach too much wow factor to a silver head.

Even for soprano flutes, double blind testing seems to support the claims by acousticians that the material (other than its surface finish in the bore) is actually irrelevant to the sound produced.

[Chris Peryagh]

I've got the entry level Jupiter DiMedici alto with both heads, it's the JAF-1121ES model and the heads aren't solid silver (I'm not sure if the lip plates or risers are solid silver - probably not, but who cares? As long as it works!), but it's an excellent instrument all the same - and it has an E mech as well! The C# tonehole is soldered, not drawn.

It has the large case (with cover) to fit both heads, but the internal case fitting is designed for the cheaper Jupiter model where the left hand fingerplates are directly on the pad cups (as in the Sankyo design from the late '80s), so the block in the case that acts as a stop for the G# key (and stops the body joint turning in the case) is in completely the wrong place - it's too low down in the case - set towards the RH keys instead of under the G# touch, so I've fitted another block that sits right under the G# touch - the original block is stuck in much firmer than I expected it to be, so I left it where it is for fear of tearing the whole case apart trying to remove it.

[Bootman]

I would doubt that you would need a curved head. Alto flute feels a little long when playing it but it doesn't take long to overcome this feeling.

I may suggest that you try the Dimedici Alto, I test drove one of these the other week and it noticeably better than the Pearl, Powell and Yamaha. They only had the curved head model in stock and this really did fire, effortless 3rd register, great bottom end and an even timbre of scale throughout the range. It was also significantly better than the Monig alto with a B foot I owned in the past.

Has anyone tried any of the Chinese Alto Flutes, DC Pro, Mason branded in the US? Thoughts please!

[Chris Peryagh]

With the curved head, the end of the footjoint is at the same distance from you as your concert flute, so it's useful in pit orchestras where space is at a premium.

But make sure the joint from the lip plate part to the 'U' tube seals well, otherwise you'll have trouble with overall response. Test the curved head by placing your palm over the open end and sucking the air out of the embouchure hole - you should have a vacuum that lasts for ages - if not, the joint is leaking, so seal it with paraffin wax rubbed around the tenon.

[saxman01]

I've seen the jupiter case for the curved head. It is sortof like a gig bag you can sink your fingers into it. It has slots for the curved and straight heads.

[bruce bailey]

I tried one of the ones from China ahnd it was very good. It was the one with the arms covering the whole cup and I think it was a Venus(?) A direct copy of the pearl but with MOP (mother of plastic) touches. Both heads, french case and nylon cover. Got it on ebay for around $450 shipped. I bid on them all the time at that price. Nto quite as good as the Pearl as far as the body tube finish but for an Alto it is good enough. The Dimedicis are nice but a little expensive. The Jupiter Bass is a good buy too.

[Michael Ward]

Bruce or anybody..have you come across the Robert Dick bass made by Emerson? what is this like? I got a new head for my Kingma Bass that has a very deep riser from Eva.. I picked it from 10 and although a little difficult to get used to at first has good volume especially on the lowest notes. I'm also waiting on a low B foot. Eva now has a bass that is held vertically and descends to G..she calls it the vacuum cleaner because of the unusual shape.

[Dr_sax]

Back in the late 80ies I found a quite cheap used alto flute labeled "Selmer" in a small shop in San Diego. Since then I never played a better sounding alto. I also was pretty lucky with my "Armstrong" bass flute I got used from a shop here in munich. It had a amjor dent in the bow so it was very cheap and my sax-tech removed it so well that you even can´t see where the dent was before.

[woodwindNYC]

I notice that nobody has yet mentioned another VERY viable option in the budget-alto-flute world, and that is the Sonare. I own one that I use as a backup to my Sankyo (yes, they ARE the best alto flute on the planet), and as a loaner to friends/students. It is shockingly good for its price, and very well worth a try.

[Chris Peryagh]

At least now the current budget alto flutes are of a better design, mostly copying the better Japanese designs - for a long time in the UK the only one on the market that was very affordable (around £215 back in 1987 - a B12 clarinet was £279 and a Yamaha 211S flute was around £400) was the dreadful Chinese-built 'Parrot' altos which was a poor copy of a Moennig, with very soft brass keys. Though it could be played and had a half-decent sound, it went out of adjustment all too easily, and is a heavy instrument to handle, but not as heavy as a Moennig.

Another make was the Rampone&Cazzani (F.I.S.M.), though the metal was much better, the third octave wasn't all that much cop. Above this were Moennig, Armstrong, Emerson and right at the top were the Japanese ones (Muramatsu, Miyazawa, Sankyo, etc.).

I let a flautist friend try my Jupiter alto, ad he was impressed with the ease and tuning in the third octave - he once owned a Rampone&Cazzani alto and struggled with the top notes.

And as Jupiter make the bodies for Altus (and presumably use the same design for their own), is it any wonder why Jupiter altos play as well as they do, for a fraction of the cost.

If I'm feeling flush, I might try an Altus solid silver head on my Jupiter to see how it compares.

[Michael Ward]

Chris I remember the dreaded Parrot..often played with a Flute Makers Guild head although I never succumbed and got a second hand Armstrong. Bass and alto like bass clarinet have to have perfect set up to work well..I had a Muramatsu alto that never played well though I had it checked out by a well known London flute specialist ,whilst I was there I played a couple of straight Sankyos that really impressed me. I wish now I'd had the Mura repadded but I sold it to pay the Queen, I got it from the old Lewington's and I think they'd had it a while.
The Altus alto in my opinion is superior to the Yamaha although again it could have been set up. The Altus alto and bass body is made at the Jupiter factory and the head is cut in Japan. The keywork on the Altus bass is far more ergonomic than the Yami although the Altus bass I tried had impossible intonation. Have you considered a Mike Allen alto head ? They are very good. Eva Kingma heads are good and Robert Bigio makes a wooden alto head. cheers

[Chris Peryagh]

A colleague has a Parrot alto which he's having tons of trouble with, and that has an FMG head - when it belonged to the previous owner it was converted to Murray system (open G# and open Eb - possibly had the thumb keys reversed as well, but I'm not sure), and converted back to closed G# and Eb again by the current owner.

The bore on the Parrot is narrower than my Jupiter, so the (FMG) head rattled around in the socket.

Another Parrot I worked on belonged to one of my college tutors, but it too didn't stay regulated for long.

Another thing with Parrot (and most older Chinese) flutes, as well as other instruments is that sickly sweet smell from the case - it's unmistakable!

[bruce bailey]

I have sold the Robert Dick Bass and it is just OK. The best part is that it has the Bb shake and trill keys and looks nice. The DiMedici and Jupiter are better players for less money.
As far as the Sonare Alto, it DOES look interesting. One of my customers has one but I haven't seen it yet. When I do, I will post back. Overall my feelings on Alto and Basses is that unless you are a full time studio player on one of the beasts, the low priced horns will serve you fine. It is not like buying a soprano sax where there are $200 junkers and a top line can be bought for $2,500. With an Alto or Bass flute, a goody can be had for Alto=$1,200 and Bass=$1,800. A top line Alto can run you $10K which for a doubler will buy a lot of horns!
I service a Kingma Bass and although it is a nice player, I seem to be seeing it more than I should. Solder work is also a bit below par for the price.
Really, try the Dimedici or Jupiter Bass flute and the Pearl Alto.

[Michael Ward]

thanks Bruce. Economics aside do you like the Sankyo alto?

[bruce bailey]

I haven't seen the Sankyo but if it is as good as their flutes it could be a winner. One instrument I have been disappointed with is the Yamaha bass flute. Not as good as their Alto and way too much money.

[Michael Ward]

I had a Yamaha bass for about a year and I found the keywork awkward for my left hand even after dispensing with the crutch. The Altus has better keywork. My Kingma which was Eva's show bassflute is pretty nice , they're all hand made to order so there's no two alike. My tech ordered a set of Kingma bass pads from Italy and repadded it for me and it is super responsive right down to low C. The hardest thing about the bass is assembling and breaking it down without damaging it with the curved head..after a learning curve with the Yami I'm pretty good at it now.

[Bootman]

I have seen several Parrots in the past and been severely underwhelmed by them. The Pearl Alto was nice in the low to mid range but would not speak well in the upper range, the Dimedici was all over it and the Pearl in this area and in depth of tone. The darkest of the Alto flutes I have ever played or owned was the Monig, it was an air hog but had an almost Bass Flute like tone at times.

My Bass is a Artley T.S Ogilve model which is a lovely instrument to play, solid silver head and winged lip makes for a very responsive Flute. The lack of trill keys means more fancy fingerings for the 3rd register work but in most cases you don't really want to be in this area on a Bass flute. I have played a Monig Bass and been severely underwhelmed by the response and lack of power in the bottom end. Not too many Bass flutes are floating around here at all.

[Michael Ward]

I've read nothing but good things about the Ogilve. Was it a special? I think one of my favourite players Paul Horn played one. A buzz whilst in Holland was playing a contrabass flute..what a funky instrument that is.

[Bootman]

To my knowledge it was a special Bass model. I did hear from Mr Ogilve's daughter at one stage about these flutes but I cant recall the exact nature of the discussions now. All I can say is that if you get a chance to chase one down then do so, they are very, very good.

[bruce bailey]

Ogilve had the design patent and Artley used it. All of the Artleys are the same model unless there are some made after the UMI buyout around the early 80s which probably are Armstrongs (Artleystrongs?).