Newer Martin stencil info and the two factories

[Stencilman]

Anybody have experience with newer Martin stencils, from the 1940's on? There are ton's of Handcraft stencils, but were a significant number of stencil produced in the last 15 or 20 years of Martin's existance? Were these mostly Indiana and Imperial stencils? I do know of the pro lines that are on saxpics site (Reynolds, Super Olds, Stabile).

I've always assumed that there were two Martin factories: one that made its "main line" horns and one that was once the Indiana Band Instrument Company. The later presumably produced the Indiana, Imperial and Medalist lines. Anything concrete to back this up?

I ask these questions partly because I came across an unplayable F.E. Olds Ambassador alto that is a Martin. Its key work is not exactly like any Martin I've seen. From the Olds serial number chart the horn was made in 1949, the same time as The Martin Alto and The Indiana were both produced. The keys are brass instead of nickle silver and are not as intricate as The Martin Alto (no pearl on fork F#, single arms on low Eb/C) but are not laid out like those on an Indiana.

So, what is this thing: a modified Indiana, a watered down The Martin Alto (probably not) or none of the above? It could have been designed by Olds and manufactured by Martin. Any guesses?

I should have this horn playable in a couple of weeks. I expect it to be a decent horn. It seems to be very well constructed.

Thanks!

[basil b.]

I think you're right, they had two factories and two serial no lists. one for the band instrument factory. The olds abassador I had was made in france and a piece of crap, I'm sure yours is better.
Send me an email at jobworkz at xprt dot com. I've got a cool stencil for you.

[LBAjazz]

One thing I've noticed on Martin tenor stencils...the low C and Eb are on the same rod. When you depress the C key, the rod flexes and causes the Eb to open. I've had to fix this issue on a couple of tenors, a Reynolds Medalist and an Olds Ambassador.

[Stencilman]

Basil, email bounced back. Please post back, you've got me interested.

[basil b.]

that was my email address jobworkz at xprt dot net of course you have to substitute the @ for at and . for dot and remove any spaces. If I don't write it like that they will bury me in spam.

[rrex54]

Regarding the Olds horns: Martin presumably made the bodies for Olds which did the finishing work -- hence some of the differences. I believe that Pete has some notes about this on the saxpics site -- either at the bottom under Olds or in the Martin section -- can't remember at the moment. As I recall the Olds Studio is pretty much a good quality Indiana -- with an appropriately good reputation.

[rrex54]

Oops, I forgot to mention I have a silver Martin tenor stencil (simply "WM" on the bell) with a 232xx serial number that probably dates it to about 1940. It needs a repad (mostly non-reso, non-rivet pads), but has a great sound nonetheless.

The bell is much bigger than my Martin Handcraft Committee (aka Searchlight), but is LH bell key. Keywork feels like the Handcraft -- concave pearls with the earlier (continued on the Indiana) LH pinky cluster of:

G#
B C#
Bb

I presume this is what was or became the Indiana model.

I am not sure about the two factory model. Martin made the axes for the Indiana Band Instrumet Co. -- so why move sax making to the Indiana BIC facility (assuming Martin kept it)? As I think about the post-20s shrinkage of the market, I wonder if Martin would have had a second factory at all -- at least for very long after absorbing the Indiana BIC.

[Stencilman]

As I recall the Olds Studio is pretty much a good quality Indiana -- with an appropriately good reputation.
I have a 1949 Olds Ambassador Indiana stencil in excellent condition. It is a fantastic player.

I find it interesting that a 1950'S catalog at Olds Central shows a Martin Indiana stencil as their "entry level" Ambassador but a Buescher 30A stencil (Buescher's Elkhart second line horn) as the "pro" model. I think the Indiana is a better quality horn than the Elkhart.

Thanks for clearing up the relationship between Martin and Indiana Band. What you've said certainly makes sense.

I've been jealous of your "WM" tenor since you talked about it back on the old forum. I almost landed one on Ebay, but someone else was too quick for me at the end. It was a silver-plated beauty in great shape.

I now have several Martin tenor stencils from the 1930's, one that is based on the Handcraft Imperial with the odd Eb trill key. With most of their lacquer gone, none are as pretty as your "WM".

[rrex54]

Thanks, WM is a neat horn. My main tenor is a Handcraft Committee -- which ain't a pretty horn by any means -- but OH the sound! Despite WM not receiving less play than it deserves these days -- and a surplus of horns at the moment, I can't seem to bear the thought of giving it up. It has just a little different character than the H. Committee.

It is strange about the higher rating on the Elkhart. I agree that the Indianas were simply better instruments.

BTW I know from your posts that you have quite an enviable collection of saxes without a WM -- although I'm sure one will pop up again one of these days.

[Stencilman]

BTW I know from your posts that you have quite an enviable collection of saxes without a WM -- although I'm sure one will pop up again one of these days.
You were right. POOF! Another did show up on Ebay so I snatched it! It is no where near as nice as the previous one that came up. Lots of tarnish so we'll have to see how it cleans up. This works out great since I can just put the Roo pads that were waiting to go into the Martin Handcraft into the MW instead and it will be up and running in a week or less.

The most interesting thing is that the seller says that the engraved letters are actually "MW" which he believes stands for...drum roll... Montgomery Ward :-) Now that's a sax brand I can be proud of! I tried doing some web searches to see if I could find any reference to the Montgomery Ward sax, but nothing really came up other than a reference to a MW clarinet called the Silvertone. I can't wait for the first person to ask me what kind of tenor I play!

And so, it looks like poor old Stencilman will never be able to play a sax with a reputable name again, only horns with names like Vega, Elkhart, Melody Master, Olds, Blessing, Gretsch, Peate's Music House and now Montgomery Ward. The Selmers have been sold off and the Bueschers, Martins and Conns are being played by the kids.

Sigh.

[rrex54]

Poor Stencilman?!? A Martin tenor at that price is quite a steal. It should clean up nicely -- and actually doesn't look as tarnished as mine at the moment! You'll find the action not quite as good as a H. Committee, but it seems a wee bit more nimble that the original Handcrafts.

As far as the moniker is concerned, I suppose that it could be MW as well as WM the way the letters are intertwined. With such ornate letters, a mail order source had not occured to me. However, it makes perfect sense as I know Sears sold instruments. In fact, I thought the "Silvertone" moniker was Sears & Roebucks. Ah, well, who knows.

Anyway, congratulations. That should be a great horn with Roo pads. Keep us posted.

[Stencilman]

Roy, so you are playing a Comm I as your main horn and the MW as a backup? Very nice.

I'll keep snooping around to find out more about the MW/Sears thing. You never know what information can be trusted out there in Internet land.

I forgot to mention that I have a wonderful sterling silver neck that I modified for the Martin HC (tenon neaded to be expanded slightly and upper end re-tapered to match the original). It should be great on the new horn. Seems kinda silly, a new $600 neck on a 70-year old horn that cost me $200 :-)

Roy, thanks for sharing in my excitement!

[bruce bailey]

I had a "Sea King" outboard motor from Monkey Warts back in the 50s and it was an Evinrude! I think Sears always had the "Silvertone" label on the horns. I remember the catalog always had Good, Better and Best for the models and my father's first clarinet was a Silvertone ($9.95). The Olds Alto I mentioned in the Buescher section was one I got on ebay as I thought it was a ComII clone from the key guards, but it turned out to be a Buescher.

[bruce bailey]

OK, I have revived this thread as I actually got here from Google. I have been searching for info on a WM or MW alto that I have with no luck. It appears to be Martin keywork, Left side bell keys, G# trill and no rear Eb. I would guess it to be from the early 30s. I would guess a Martin BUT it has drawn tone holes. I guess it "could" be a Montgomery Ward horn but who knows? I will get some photos soon.

[1saxman]

Poor Stencilman?!? A Martin tenor at that price is quite a steal. It should clean up nicely -- and actually doesn't look as tarnished as mine at the moment! You'll find the action not quite as good as a H. Committee, but it seems a wee bit more nimble that the original Handcrafts.

As far as the moniker is concerned, I suppose that it could be MW as well as WM the way the letters are intertwined. With such ornate letters, a mail order source had not occured to me. However, it makes perfect sense as I know Sears sold instruments. In fact, I thought the "Silvertone" moniker was Sears & Roebucks. Ah, well, who knows.

Anyway, congratulations. That should be a great horn with Roo pads. Keep us posted.

'Silvertone' was Sears. They used it for all instruments and amplifiers, etc. for many years. I imagine they sourced their saxes from different makers over the years.
I have one of the Martin-stencil Olds Ambassador tenors that needs to be put back together. You can always tell a Martin stencil because of the soldered-in tone rings. They were the only ones doing that during the '40s-'60s. That's a project I need to get back to. I took the body to the shop for some minor dent work and to pick up the special pad sizes for it. I just never went any further with it.

[bruce bailey]

I have one of those Olds Ambassador altos and it is VERY close to my the Martin. The "Montgomery Ward" horn I have has drawn straight tone holes so it would not be a Martin but the keywork is Martin.