Do we need rules for the marketplace?

[hakukani]

My opinion of the marketplace was that it was a place for sax geeks like us to have friendly trades and sales of gear, for fun and just miniscule profit.

It seems that some members feel that it is a place to do a side business. For these folks, I think that we maybe need a few rules/ettiquette.

Since I've made my thoughts known in a couple of (probably) inappropriate places, I thought I'd start a thread so that we'uns don't furthur hijack marketplace threads.

I just want to see if we can come to some consensus, get along better, and have some fun.

Okay, FIRE AWAY!

[jazzhart]

Hakukani,

I agree 100% that some of the junk I read on the marketplace is totally out of line and not called for at all. I try to respect other folks opinions and the whole forum is a great place to learn and gain insight. What it does not need to become is a forum for self appointed watchdogs who feel their knowledge and understanding is so euridite that no other person should question their well established opinion. I have been following the thread from which your thread germinated and some of the child-like exchanges remind me of when I was a school principal. I appreciate the fact that some feel their postings are to protect the buyer and in many ways their intentions are well placed. If these folks want to post a warning, once should be enough and then let the buyer make their own decision. Sellers, don't get in a war of words with some of these folks, you will not win regardless of how well established your position. Your dialogue will be analyzed down to the comma and should one be incorrect, you will be beaten again and again.

I do appreciate well placed insight from the experienced players here but, the ruthless verbal arguments over some things makes me wonder. Offer a well placed, neutral opinion and then get out of the way. Hope things are good out on the big island. :D

Dennis

[littlemanbighorn]

Agreed on both counts.

[gary]

edit: based on the other posts here it seems that this thread is a comment on another thread I've not been aware of, so I dump my comments.

[Chicken 'Lil]

Jazzhart, while I totally agree with your statement I have one question; where to draw the line. The genesis of Hakukani's post is from a particularly egregious case. One that went way beyond the pail and made several people involved look kind of silly. However, it seems that the garden variety “I think you’re charging too much money for x, y and z” is also nonsense. If you don’t want it don’t buy it then don't. If you think you have an opinion that matters then speak up or send a PM.
I think that in general one should post something that contributes something new to the discussion and is likely to be useful to further that discussion.

[SAXISMYAXE]

I've put forward these issues with the rest of the staff, and we are actively discussing the topic.

I'll state right now, that in my opinion, it is quite alright for SOTW Members to post a link to their OFF-SITE, Ebay or Craigslist auction in the Marketplace, as long as no attempt at auctioning off the item on our site takes place. I interpret the present rules in this manner, and apparently so does the rest of the staff.

I get requests for help with buying vintage saxophones from individuals on a daily basis, and I know that many have found the horn they were looking for via these member Ebay ads on more than a few occasions. These opportunities would likely have been missed without the heads up provided in the Marketplace section.

This, to me, provides ample opportunities without the added headaches and ramifications of SOTW authorized, on-site auctions.

We will post the decisions reached by the staff when they are available. Of course the final verdict will come from Harri, the owner.

[gary]

I'll state right now, that in my opinion, it is quite alright for SOTW Members to post a link to their OFF-SITE, Ebay or Craigslist auction in the Marketplace, as long as no attempt at auctioning off the item on our site takes place. I interpret the present rules in this manner, and apparently so does the rest of the staff.
I don't necessarily disagree with your policy, I just think that the rules on posting need to be changed then, to reflect this. As they are written now, it is unequivical what is supposed to be posted on the board in a SOTW for-sale ad and, without this clarification (or revision) it appears that some just skirt the requirements while others are requited to follow them. This isn't going to keep me awake tonight but I think it's something that could be better defined to avoid the impression of favouritism.

[SAXISMYAXE]

I don't necessarily disagree with your policy, I just think that the rules on posting need to be changed then, to reflect this. As they are written now, it is unequivical what is supposed to be posted on the board in a SOTW for-sale ad.
We agree.

[Carl H.]

How about requiring a FA or for auction in the thread title for items which are not "for sale" but only available to the highest bidder? So many times I see an item I am interested in as FS XYZ mouthpiece & Q#% ligature only to find it is an auction. A number of guys post links to their auctions with a buy it now offer for SOTW members, and I think a FS from them is fine, but I get tired of links to auctions with overpriced starting bids.

Or better yet, maybe move these auctions to the ebay section totally, unless they are for sale here too? After all, no auctions is pretty unambiguous.

Every once in a while I find a serious bargain on craigslist and post a link here. I know how some people feel posting links to similar bargains found on ebay is somehow taking it away from somebody who found the auction on their own. Maybe a ruling on this should also be considered while this is being discussed?

[Carl H.]

As they are written now, it is unequivical what is supposed to be posted on the board in a SOTW for-sale ad and, without this clarification (or revision) it appears that some just skirt the requirements while others are required to follow them.

I agree. I recently saw an ad which didn't meet the requirements. The seller responded after the sale by stating something to the effect that "See, somebody was happy!" :x I'm happy somebody get what they wanted at the price they were willing to pay, but the attitude of the seller really ticked me off. Could we have these things pulled if they don't meet requirements or have them approved before being posted? I know it's more work for overworked mods, but I don't know how else the rules can be effectively enforced when posters can break the rules and sell stuff anyway.
:?

[SAXISMYAXE]

The idea of having all ads go into a moderation pool prior to approval and posting isn't a bad idea.

It will create a bit more work short term, but since a large number of newer members (and a few long timers too!) miss one or more of the posting requirements and have to be notified, threads edited by a mod etc. it may save time and energy in the long run.

[hakukani]

Now this is what I call a discussion!

[Jonathan C.]

I don't think we should get rid of ebay auctions. I like the idea of them having their own section though. A subforum in the Market place for ebay auctions. I think the requrments for those ads should be as followed.
1) What is being sold
2) The condition of the horn
3) Starting Price
That would make it extreamly easy for people who don't have alot of time to take a quick look and see if the horn/equipment interest them. I do NOT THINK that we should ban the comments on the product. If you have looked through these forums many people who don't know how to use the search button, but scan the marketplace or the new post section. May have no idea, what they are getting, the quality, or the caliber weapon, sorry, instrument. I think that price haggaling should be held to PM. If you don't like the price, and want to get the item. By all means haggle if you wish. Do I think that people should be publicly harrased on here about their product. No. Should people have an opprunity to challange the product openly yes. It is a community of sorts, and in such people will be quesioned.
:blackeye: I don't think a full fledged fight though should erupt over price, or who was right and wrong.:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

[jazzhart]

The idea of having all ads go into a moderation pool prior to approval and posting isn't a bad idea.

It will create a bit more work short term, but since a large number of newer members (and a few long timers too!) miss one or more of the posting requirements and have to be notified, threads edited by a mod etc. it may save time and energy in the long run.

I'll second this motion! It will take some work but the probable outcome will allow for a far more uniform, and hopefully civilized, outlet for the sale and purchase of instruments.

[Jonathan C.]

I agree with Saxismyaxe, and jazzheart. I would like to take it one step further though. I would like to see something at the bottom of next to the online symobl saying a rating. I don't know maybe blue if it is a zero repuation. Some kind of symbol. that will say some kind of rating on transacations. After the item has changed hands with the money. Both the Seller and the Buyer ask a moderater for a link that will only work once and they click it to give a rating and so on. Howver the only down side I see to this idea, is that the moderaters would have to watch for back and forth trading to build reputation.

[jazzhart]

Jazzhart, while I totally agree with your statement I have one question; where to draw the line. The genesis of Hakukani's post is from a particularly egregious case. One that went way beyond the pail and made several people involved look kind of silly. However, it seems that the garden variety “I think you’re charging too much money for x, y and z” is also nonsense. If you don’t want it don’t buy it then don't. If you think you have an opinion that matters then speak up or send a PM.
I think that in general one should post something that contributes something new to the discussion and is likely to be useful to further that discussion.

Chicken 'Lil, you are right regarding the garden variety statements and I do agree that point of drawing the line can be nebulous. This, I feel, is where professionalism and tact come into play. If one sees a clearly fraudlent statement being posted then that person needs to state, in a tactful and nonagressive manner, what is wrong and provide a clear point of proof. Hopefully all involved will correct the issue or responde via PM's. Thanks for the support.

[Carl H.]

We had the rating business here for a while and I think it was decided that it was a nuisance more than a reliable reflection on an individual. Look at what a joke feedback has become on ebay. I think posting a question about any member will get you a review of their character or lack of it. (I wonder where Grumps has been lately, speaking of characters...)

[dirty]

I agree with Saxismyaxe, and jazzheart. I would like to take it one step further though. I would like to see something at the bottom of next to the online symobl saying a rating. I don't know maybe blue if it is a zero repuation. Some kind of symbol. that will say some kind of rating on transacations. After the item has changed hands with the money. Both the Seller and the Buyer ask a moderater for a link that will only work once and they click it to give a rating and so on. Howver the only down side I see to this idea, is that the moderaters would have to watch for back and forth trading to build reputation.
At that point, we should just pack up the Marketplace and move it to eBay.

I think we should try to keep the process as simple as possible, while still addressing the issues. I like the idea of ads needing to be submitted to the mods first, as long as the mods are willing to go through the hassle of reviewing them.

[hakukani]

I think dirty has a point. I just didn't think the mods would want the extra work. That seems to have been addressed.

Then we have to work out ettiquette.

[Randall]

Just a little about the reputation thing:

Trying to assign "rep points" was roundly shot down here when saxpics tried to steer things that way.

The dealers evaluation section I think serves a good purpose in many ways, but does little to address sales by everyone else.

I like simplicity, so perhaps, a simple advert that has to meet the requirements (shuffled to a mod for approval) and then the ad is posted and no one else can add comments to the advert except the seller. Seller can add posts to answer FAQ's that are PM'd to the seller.

On all adverts I say that the sellers joining date on the SOTW be listed in BOLD letters, along with the number of posts to give the viewer a quick background profile of the seller.

There is a lot to learn from this board. Lord knows I have learned tons here over the many years I have participated. I feel a sense of community here too and I want to share what I have learned. That is the teacher in me.
And, through the marketplace and deals with my many friends here, I have gotten to play some fantastic horns.

However, clearly things in the marketplace (and other areas) seem to get out of hand at times. Even well intentioned advice can be taken the wrong way, and sheer meanness masquerading as consumer protection only makes things worse. The argumentativeness for the sake of argument (aka-trolling) and petulance of certain posters has put me off from posting here, and has made others simply throw up their hands and stop-without the requisite YAGE.

I have found myself adding fuel to the fire by responding to this flaming, ranting, acerbic silliness. So I propose that you do what I have learned to do and pledge to do: rather than respond, use the ignore function. Report the flaming sphincters whose posts are out of hand, to the moderators.

The mods are a good bunch here, and quite fair.
and....caveat emptor.

[hakukani]

I agree that sometimes well meaning folks, such as you and I, have inadvertently added fuel to the fire. That's exactly what I would like to try to prevent. Lord knows, life outside the innerrnet is hard enough. Some of us use forum(s) as a respite from some of the BS that we can't control in our corporeal lives.

That's why using the moderators and consensus building is so important. IMHO using the ignore list, while a good short-term solution to an irritant, eventually backfires. I think a timer on any ignore list person is a good idea. Give them two or three months or so, then give them another chance.

Of course, I understand that this is up to an individual.

Just my $.02 on that...

[Carl H.]

I don't think restricting posts in the ads is totally necessary. You have a point about argumentativeness, but it isn't limited to just the marketplace. Some people may have their reasons for doing what they do, but sometimes those reasons elude me. Occasionally useful information is brought up and discussed calmly. Not to mention the entertainment factor in some of the for sale ads. As much as these discussions may annoy certain sellers, they also act as a legitimate bump to keep the ads in the new posts listing. I wish somebody would have gabbed all over the 2 items I have ended up trading here.

[hakukani]

I don't think restricting posts in the ads is totally necessary. You have a point about argumentativeness, but it isn't limited to just the marketplace. Some people may have their reasons for doing what they do, but sometimes those reasons elude me. Occasionally useful information is brought up and discussed calmly. Not to mention the entertainment factor in some of the for sale ads. As much as these discussions may annoy certain sellers, they also act as a legitimate bump to keep the ads in the new posts listing. I wish somebody would have gabbed all over the 2 items I have ended up trading here.

Agreed.

[Carl H.]

Here (http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=58965) is a classic example of the dilemma of the market place. A highly desirable sax for sale by a new guy whose only posts are in his for sale ad. A preposting panel would resolve this nicely. Maybe the perk of such a panel could be first crack at all items for sale here? Some might complain it is unfair, but there should be some compensation for all the extra work, as long as a dealer doesn't set up shop getting first crack at everything.

[littlemanbighorn]

A highly desirable sax for sale by a new guy whose only posts are in his for sale ad.

I found that very dubious. Possibly he's totally straight up, but it sets off all the beware sirens for me.

[SAXISMYAXE]

This ad, and the one before it which was also removed, does not comply with our Marketplace posting rules, and has been deleted.

[A Greene]

We have rules - some choose NOT to follow. :(

The issue is enforcement. How can we MAKE someone follow the rules without having Harri and company Police constantly. Here are a couple thoughts.

1) Have a Marketplace Fee - This came up one time a year ago. At the time, I thought is was a bad idea BUT if theres a small $10 charge a year to list instruments then I'd pay that.

2) Members MUST have a minimum of 10 post BEFORE they are able to list things for sale. E-bay will not allow someone with less than FEEDBACK of 10 to use Buy-It-Now. This will stop the 1 POST and DONE sellers.

3) Maximum FOR SALE Post in any given time. Let's say 10 a year. If you're selling MORE than that - it sounds like your a dealer or in the business. If you'd like to sell more than 10 - No problem - mandatory Business Membership. I like seeing all the cool stuff some guys sell - but many are operating a business using SOTW as advertisement.

4) I like the Forum aspect of the Market Place but it could simply be a Bulletin Board. These items are for sale - contact e-mail for further info.

5) A FOR SALE - FORM - If the material is not complete it will not be posted.

6) We as a community can REFUSE to respond to any post that does not follow the rules (This will be difficult especially if it's the Horn or Mouthpiece you've waited for your whole life.)

7) Leave it alone and grow THIKER SKIN. Your listing better be accurate or someone is going to let YOU HAVE IT.

I really Enjoy SOTW and and thankful to be in touch with SO many great players, educators, and hobbiest. It's my escape during the day. I hope something can be worked out.

A. Greene

[littlemanbighorn]

6) We as a community can REFUSE to respond to any post that does not follow the rules (This will be difficult especially if it's the Horn or Mouthpiece you've waited for your whole life.)



I don't think this one's an option. There are too many young and/or experienced players who will bite on dubious posts. While getting burned is a life lesson than teaches us to be careful, I think around here it's better for the community to keep an eye out for those who might not know better. (I think that's something that I feel a strong sense of here and one of the things I love about this site.)
I would have no problems with small yearly fees or a minimum number of posts before placing marketplace posts, or a reasonable limit on numbers of marketplace posts. It's my opinion that after a certain number of horn or expensive mouthpiece sales people should be putting some of that money towards starting their own sites if they're selling that much gear (and a donation to sotw).

[Enviroguy]

There's just too many rules to life as it is. The "There ought to be a law about that" mentality is slowly taking our freedom away as it is. I think acting like adults is best solution to most of these issues.

[hakukani]

There's just too many rules to life as it is. The "There ought to be a law about that" mentality is slowly taking our freedom away as it is. I think acting like adults is best solution to most of these issues.

Okay, how about strong guidelines, for those of us that can't follow rules?

[Saxydude]

I think the simplest and best solution to this is to simply lock all the Marketplace advertisements and make them available to be edited or updated by only the author. If there are issues concerning how high a price is or if it's a relacquer let the person with a question PM the author and deal privately. Then, if something needs to be changed in the advert the author is free to do it. This eliminates a "points rating system" and the need for the moderators to oversee everything. In addition to that we can add a "References" section where people can write reviews of completed transactions so members can build credibility on this board.

Here is a prime example of what's wrong with the Marketplace as it currently stands: http://tinyurl.com/3bu3dw. Once again we have someone claiming the price is too high, yet another person saying the price is fine, and the author eventually lowering the price. If the adverts were locked the author (after being unable to sell his horn) would probably take the hint and lower his price if wants to sell for less than the original listing. This is how a Marketplace works. Furthermore, if someone is interested in the horn for less than the listed price they can PM the author with an offer.

Something needs to be done. Things like this are beginning to overtake the forum and the Marketplace is a great place to start implementing changes.

[hakukani]

When placing a student in an alternative program, one of the most guidelines that we have is to place a student in the 'Least Restrictive Environment'. Using 'Least Restrictive Enviroment' that:

1. Makes it so people can sell/trade
2. Makes it so people can buy safely
3. Make a safe enviroment to discuss condition vs. price, desireability, general informational questions about an item.

Any others? Ideas? Comments?

[Rick Adams]

Maybe this isn't the place to say this, but I don't think this is an issue that is just limited to the marketplace, it's something that I have seen in all sorts of threads and I don't like it. I'd describe it as a sort of low grade "bullying" or "one upmanship" where it appears that the person posting is actually only interested in proving something about themselves rather than in socialising or contributing to the good of all here.

I read some stuff here on SOTW and it makes me wince and occasionally I've spoken out but other times (and increasingly) I keep my mouth shut because I really do not want to deal with the flack I'd get if I say what I really think and I'm concerned about the fall out on an ongoing basis. I'm not proud of it, but it's true nevertheless and I'm faily sure I'm not alone in this opinion.

So actually maybe the problem is as much about a majority who stay silent as it is about a few who are sometimes inappropriately vocal. Is there a way for more people to be made more comfortable about speaking up, or to be represented more in a discussion? I don't know, probably not.

Currently I do not feel confident that if I posted a reasonably worded comment to challenge the types of posts I am thinking of I would necessarily get backed up by other members or by the board moderators and I'd be left holding the baby, so best to keep my mouth shut and not get into any arguments. I would far rather not feel like this... :|

[Al Stevens]

We don't need more rules. We don't need more moderation. The moderators don't need more rules to moderate. Just deal with each issue on an individual basis as we do now. Why place heavy constraints on 99% to deal with 1%?

Putting all these numerical parameters on a member's right to list would be cumbersome. Saying you can't list something for sale until you've posted N times or been here Y weeks or whatever guarantees nothing. Someone would have to moderate it. Then, would we expect them to check all those N posts to ensure that they were truly meaningful posts and not just posted to increase their post count?

If you lock for-sale threads, no one can conveniently alert the members of a potential scam, or the lising of a stolen horn, or whatever. The price we pay for that service is that occasionally folks' passion and enthusiasm get carried away and a debate ensues. There's nothing wrong with that. It's free and open expression.

An open forum is the best policy. If one has to go after such problems with PMs and private complaints to moderators, too much happens under the table that the membership doesn't see. Keep everything open and aboveboard.

Don't add fees for listings. This ain't ebay. Then you get into fee schedules. Does it cost the same to list a $5 mouthpiece cap as it does a $6K horn? Does the seller pay the fee if no one buys? Who moderates and accounts for all that?

It ain't broke. Please don't try to fix it. We are overreacting to an isolated incident. And it wasn't all that bad. Actually, it was kind of entertaining. And many of us learned some things about relacquering and one thing and another that we might not have otherwise learned.

[Dr G]

Good call, Al. I agree that we've enough rules and guidelines and that, by and large, this is still an excellent forum.

The Marketplace is not broken. Let's not fix it.

[Carl H.]

I agree with Al.

Rick, WHAT A STUPID WASTE OF TIME YOUR POST WAS! WHAT AN ID 10 T! :twisted: Actually your post makes perfect sense. Don't worry about going out on a limb. You seem to be genuine and making valid posts in the best interest in one way or the other of the group as a whole. Stand your ground. If needed, reinforcements are near.

The rules are pretty minimal and well thought out. It is the few who are causing issues - mostly unintentionally.

[tjontheroad]

Personaly, I like all the banter in the marketplace as long as it's civil in tone. I've learned much about how to judge an item from all the jibber jab. Look guys, when you look at an ad, make your own call as to it's worth and your interest in buying. Don't just listen to the some guy who says he knows. Find out for yourself. The marketplace is a two way street. Buyer and seller are subject to the community. We don't need more rules. Just keep it professional.

'nough said... I'm out.

[Rick Adams]

The rules are pretty minimal and well thought out. It is the few who are causing issues - mostly unintentionally.I agree with the principle of keeping to the fewest possible number of rules, although I quite like the idea of a separate subsection for auction posts and a slight rejig to the marketplace rules just in order to explain its use.

I also agree that it is only a few who cause the problems and rather boringly I also agree that it's mostly unintentional.

[Grumpie]

Thanks for that post Rick. I'm sure your certainly not alone on that one. Also we might want to consider that we have to put everything down in writing ofcourse and some are better in doing that then others. This can make it very easy sometimes for a post to get misinterpreted even when emoticons are used. And some of us have to do this in a foreign language, trying to express ourselves in a correct way.

As for the marketplace, the majority seems to go just fine. Every now and then a post comes up where I do think....why, no value added, but most of the time these are ignored by the seller aswell. (relacq discussion somewhere on the forum, you can wait for it, someone will use what he probably has been reading just before as a comment, with no intention of buying etc. but mostly also not with the intention of being a pain in the tonehole)

It's all about acting as a grown-up and some common courtesy.

now I'm back to my other keyboard, trying to find some theory about a scale named Bob

[hakukani]

Bootman just put in this ad:

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=58990


I think that this is a great example of what an ad should look like. Straight, to the point, minimalist.

[saintsday]

We don't need more rules. We don't need more moderation. The moderators don't need more rules to moderate. Just deal with each issue on an individual basis as we do now. Why place heavy constraints on 99% to deal with 1%?

Putting all these numerical parameters on a member's right to list would be cumbersome. Saying you can't list something for sale until you've posted N times or been here Y weeks or whatever guarantees nothing. Someone would have to moderate it. Then, would we expect them to check all those N posts to ensure that they were truly meaningful posts and not just posted to increase their post count?

If you lock for-sale threads, no one can conveniently alert the members of a potential scam, or the lising of a stolen horn, or whatever. The price we pay for that service is that occasionally folks' passion and enthusiasm get carried away and a debate ensues. There's nothing wrong with that. It's free and open expression.

An open forum is the best policy. If one has to go after such problems with PMs and private complaints to moderators, too much happens under the table that the membership doesn't see. Keep everything open and aboveboard.

Don't add fees for listings. This ain't ebay. Then you get into fee schedules. Does it cost the same to list a $5 mouthpiece cap as it does a $6K horn? Does the seller pay the fee if no one buys? Who moderates and accounts for all that?

It ain't broke. Please don't try to fix it. We are overreacting to an isolated incident. And it wasn't all that bad. Actually, it was kind of entertaining. And many of us learned some things about relacquering and one thing and another that we might not have otherwise learned.

Thank you, Mr. Stevens, for another thoughtful post. I agree with every word.

[hakukani]

What I seem to be hearing here then is:

Keep the present minimalist rules
Keep it civil
Keep it open, moderated on a case to case basis

Is that it?

[Al Stevens]

Works for me.

[saintsday]

A+ in reading comprehension.

[Chicken 'Lil]

The main problem is that we, as a community, must accept the fact that - like every community - there are people that we won't like. Or, more importantly, we won't like their behavior. Irritants will be irritants in any community be it virtual or real. I believe that, like others have said here, people who post things (regardless or which area of the forum) will be, and should be, open to all sorts of comment. If they don't like the commentary they can respond (hopefully with a civil tone), leave it alone or leave. Furthermore, the accusation that "real players" are being chased away is specious. There are many so-called "real players" on this forum who contribute and really care about this forum. The people being chased away - if that is really happening - are people who are argumentative and can't accept others points of view.
As to the main point of this thread; simplicity is the key to “Horns and Equipment Wanted & For Sale” threads. Simplicity of rules, of description and hype.

[Dr G]

Simple hyperbole? Does that mean we have to go back to "It wails!"? ;)

[gelliot2]

I think we have indeed come full circle...What was the question again?

[Saxydude]

I don't think the solution to this problem is leaving everything the way it is. Marketplace adverts are not a place for commentary. Regardless of how simple we keep the adverts someone will always chime in with "that price is too high!" and that starts the chain reaction.

I still don't see any drawbacks to locking the adverts in the Marketplace. This would eliminate the bumping that occurs when people start conversations in response to an advert and a lot of the commentary that goes on when a certain item goes up for sale.

Lock the ads and make them so only the author can edit. That way individual issues with price can be discussed through PM and the author can edit his ad accordingly if he or she so chooses.

[Dr G]

I disagree with your simplistic approach for reasons already outlined above by more astute contributors.

[Chicken 'Lil]

Simple hyperbole? Does that mean we have to go back to "It wails!"? ;)
No, that's just too far.:D

[Carl H.]

My vote is to stick with the current philosophy on editing - only by mods. For the reasons previously expressed.

My only 2 comments on possible changes are:
separate designations for auctions vs sales, and
pre-approval to meet requirements.

Let people post whatever they like as long as it doesn't violate the spirit or rules of the site.

[Jonathan C.]

My vote is to stick with the current philosophy on editing - only by mods. For the reasons previously expressed.

My only 2 comments on possible changes are:
separate designations for auctions vs sales, and
pre-approval to meet requirements.

Let people post whatever they like as long as it doesn't violate the spirit or rules of the site.

I completly agree with Carol. The problem is that once we create all these rules, people will break them. Rules were meant to be broken. If you create to many, they will be. If you lock them, then we get 3 or 4 threads started about that one ad. Keep it simple. Don't charge a fee. Maybe incourage a little healthy giving to the site to keep it running. But don't charge. Maybe make it so you have 50 post or so before you can post on the market, or before you can sell anything. That way their is not just Marketplace members. 8-) 8-)

[ratracer]

Sheesh, this is getting way too complex! :help: I suggest the mods make anyone who wants to join and post on the forum buy and read "Everything I Really Needed to Know I Learned in Kindergarten"! (or something to that effect.)

Yeah, test at 11:00! Be there, or be square. So there! :D

[Saxydude]

I disagree with your simplistic approach for reasons already outlined above by more astute contributors.

Thank you for supplying an outstanding example of what this forum DOESN'T need.

[SAXISMYAXE]

These types of very active threads, especially when it involves forum policy, always generated heated discussion. However, I must agree that there is no reason to get nasty with one another.

Let's all play nice.

[Jonathan C.]

Thank you for supplying an outstanding example of what this forum DOESN'T need.
What? He supplied us with a rather strong opinion. Just as you have. I agree with saxismyaxe. If we keep this from getting out of hand, no ones feelings are seriously hurt.
The problem here is that Saxydude, wants to lock the ads. Why do it? He says to keep it simple. But what in life is ever simple? Also, if you lock the ads, as soon as they are created, it gives the moderators even more work than they already have, because they have to lock it.
The problem Saxydude with your approach that it simply will not work here. Their are to many threads selling stuff getting started, and then their are to many people replying to those threads. If you lock a thread, then you will not SEE the price drop on the item if it does. You WILL NOT see the dealer evaluations, the product evaluations. That is the worst thing that could happen to this forum.

Why this thread was started. I am going to go a head and address it. It was started becuase of the Mark VI thread, that kept being remade. Many people were attacking eachother. I don't know if he sold that horn, however it did keep his thread always on the New Post area.

[hakukani]

Which was a contributing factor as to why I started this one....

[Saxydude]

You WILL NOT see the dealer evaluations, the product evaluations. That is the worst thing that could happen to this forum.

Carbs - I was unaware that the moderators actually have to go through and manually lock every thread. I was fairly certain there is a setting that automatically locks all newly created threads in a certain sub-forum, but I could be wrong (have been in the past).

Regardless of locking or not locking the threads, I think that a "References" section needs to be added to the Marketplace. That way after a transaction is complete, both the buyer and seller can go to the "References" section and add a brief write-up of the transaction. This will allow the dealer evaluations, the product evaluations, and the individual evaluations to be in a separate place where they can be referred to by a potential buyer/seller at will; as opposed to looking for a previous item that "one guy" sold to see if there are evaluations.

The worst thing that could happen to the forum? --- I think "worst" is a very strong word, but you're entitled to your own opinion.

[Jason DuMars]

I am guilty of pointing out inaccuracies in marketplace ads. I've unfortunately been on a roll lately with Hersch who has posted what I believe to be the 3rd relacquered horn as original... I almost didn't write, but couldn't stop myself. This is a public forum and when you post to it, be it a marketplace ad or solicitation for advice, you should expect a variety of opinions, some well-founded and some wildly off-base. When I see what I perceive to be repeated misrepresentation, I feel it is my duty to (respectfully) point it out. In a private conversation, I suggested that the seller in question posit the question as part of the ad if the horn is original or not. People like Pete (both of them) or Glenn can spot relacqs 20 feet away, as can I. Posting a blatently uninformed opinion about something costing thousands of dollars in an ad is a liability to the reputation of this site... especially when we have the equivalent of the "Antiques Roadshow" experts here to accurately appraise things. This site has arguably the most concentrated expertise on saxophone ever assembled in history. Ads should be scrutinized for accuracy by the community in as respectful manner as possible.

[brasscane]

I am guilty of pointing out inaccuracies in marketplace ads. I've unfortunately been on a roll lately with Hersch who has posted what I believe to be the 3rd relacquered horn as original... I almost didn't write, but couldn't stop myself. This is a public forum and when you post to it, be it a marketplace ad or solicitation for advice, you should expect a variety of opinions, some well-founded and some wildly off-base. When I see what I perceive to be repeated misrepresentation, I feel it is my duty to (respectfully) point it out. In a private conversation, I suggested that the seller in question posit the question as part of the ad if the horn is original or not. People like Pete (both of them) or Glenn can spot relacqs 20 feet away, as can I. Posting a blatently uninformed opinion about something costing thousands of dollars in an ad is a liability to the reputation of this site... especially when we have the equivalent of the "Antiques Roadshow" experts here to accurately appraise things. This site has arguably the most concentrated expertise on saxophone ever assembled in history. Ads should be scrutinized for accuracy by the community in as respectful manner as possible.

I agree and am grateful for your expert opinion. What you don't address Jason is wheter you think your surveillance and that of other experts is sufficient or if there should be some formalized mechanism for "fact checking". My take on this is no, because it is not clear whom is an expert (It is clear the people mentioned in Jason's post ARE experts but in other cases it may no be so clear). My second reason for a low key moderation is the burden of the moderators mentioned numerous times above. My third is that I have no problem in identifying the professional dealers on this site and if I get the sense that they are using it to save costs on ebay, I for one will avoid them irrespectively what they are trying to sell. Finally, it is pretty evident when people are bumping threads for no good reason. The original add is neither old nor insufficient but the bumps say "...please keep offer coming." OK after the third one of those you kind of know that the seller isn't get his asking price and isn't accepting the fact that the street value of his horn may not be what he requires. Bottom line, many are shooting themselves in the foot, which obliterates the need of heavy moderating given the collective above mentioned expertise among SOTW members.

I must admit to not having read the entire thread thoroughly some of this is if not all may be repetitive for which I apologize.

[Jonathan C.]

Carbs - I was unaware that the moderators actually have to go through and manually lock every thread. I was fairly certain there is a setting that automatically locks all newly created threads in a certain sub-forum, but I could be wrong (have been in the past).

Regardless of locking or not locking the threads, I think that a "References" section needs to be added to the Marketplace. That way after a transaction is complete, both the buyer and seller can go to the "References" section and add a brief write-up of the transaction. This will allow the dealer evaluations, the product evaluations, and the individual evaluations to be in a separate place where they can be referred to by a potential buyer/seller at will; as opposed to looking for a previous item that "one guy" sold to see if there are evaluations.

The worst thing that could happen to the forum? --- I think "worst" is a very strong word, but you're entitled to your own opinion.
The problem is that if you lock them, and people have to go else where to post dealer reviews, then this forum will be loaded with even more threads, that may not be found for lack of useing the seach button, or the question will simply be reapeated over and over again. The Marketplace as stated before, and this forum is one of the most respected places in Saxophone apprasial on the Intenet. When you type in Sax on the Web into Google, what is the 2nd thing that pops up. This site. Before that their is the archives of this site, and behind it the same thing.
If someone post a Saxophone, here, and it has three pages of conversation three times, then their is something wrong with that post. When we have people here that can spot the relaqs. from "20 feet away" then the seller might want to take that into consideration. If the seller continues to go upon that same path of denial about his horn, then this site may loose some of it's repuatation. If I am correct the arguement was over a relaq. Once a horn has been relacqured, the tone may change. Because to relacquer it don't you have to buff it? Buffing takes away metal. That may have been the reason the seller was questioned about that horn. And also the seller, says he owned it for 17 years I believe, so before that, their is no gurantee that the horn was not relacquered.
Do people here need to be carefull on what they say about a certain horn, yes perhaps. Do they need to attack members if they think the ad is wrong? Maybe not attack.

[Jason DuMars]

Instead of rules, per se, how about a simple set of questions that help sellers craft a meaningful, full-disclosed ad:

1. How long have you owned the instrument?

2. Is the instrument in playing condition with no leaks from the lowest note to the highest? What type of pads are present and what is their condition (i.e. Conn reso-pads, pliable but not new)

3. What physical damage is present?

4. What cosmetic damage is present?

5. Does the horn have its original finish? If so, how do you know?

6. Where does the horn ship from and are shipping costs the responsibility of the seller or buyer? Where WON'T you ship?

7. What is the cost of the instrument? Are you open to offers or trades, and if so what are you looking for?

8. Is there anything about this sax that you would like the SOTW community to help you identify? (i.e. exact age, finish originality, rarity, history)



If this (or something similar) was a template for ads, it'd virtually eliminate most question asking. If the seller asserts it's original "because I said so..." then the community has a right to ask more questions, or accept the person as knowledgeable enough to know. If they answer that question with "the person I got it from said it was" -- that also leaves the door open for the community to question it, as there are a TON of misinformed and unethical dealers out there.

Now, in terms of original finish, it's not really all about the metal being removed. It's the fact that doing so can damage sensitive areas of the horn like tone holes and posts. It also conceals past damage history that may be very important for a future owner to know about. It's a delicate, MAJOR procedure, and has to be done correctly. Unfortunately really good relacquers are as rare as hens teeth.

[brasscane]

I like that and it could be implemented by a set of boxes that the seller has to check in order for the add to post. Evidently, there would have to be space for the seller to elaborate but it would save a lot of people time if they know there are things they don't want in a horn.


...as there are a TON of misinformed and unethical dealers out there.

You can say that again.

[ArnoG]

I like the idea of being able to offer items at a fair price to this group since we have this Commanality--in the hopes that a player will wind up with the item without the hassel of a bidding war. and if the price is not fair at least someone will set you straight.

[speyman]

What I seem to be hearing here then is:

Keep the present minimalist rules
Keep it civil
Keep it open, moderated on a case to case basis

Is that it?

This also works for me. Keep it simple stupid. Keep it an open forum.
All of these EXTRA rules sounds like a Nazi (somebody who is regarded as behaving in an authoritarian or dictatorial manner) thing to me.

[Al Stevens]

I keep reading complex proposed solutions where I don't see a problem that needs solving.

"A solution looking for a problem."

Every time you add qualifiers to how ads may be posted, who may post them, who may modify them, who may comment on them, you increase exponentially the complexity of the site and the responsibility of those who attend it, and you potentially introduce new and unforseen problems.

"The solution to a problem often modifies the problem."

Leave it alone. It works great. If I get interested in something for sale, I am reassured knowing that folks with the expertise of Jason et al are keeping an eye on things. If you restrict their comments to private admonitions to the seller or complaints to the moderators, less knowledgeable buyers might never know that experts have issues with the listing. Even if the ad is deleted on the QT, the information has already been posted and someone might be about to get snared.

"You can't unring a bell."

Keep it open. Open and aboveboard is good. Closed and under the table is bad.

I'm out of cliches to quote, so I'll step down for now.

[Al Stevens]

Another point to consider (he said, stepping up after he said he'd step down) is that potential sellers know that their ads are subject to immediate scrutiny by many experts who, in their sense of community, feel an obligation to call attention to questionable claims. That fact alone will tend to keep most sellers honest. Without such oversight, the sotw marketplace takes on an ebay mentality. Don't let it happen. Keep things open.

[Saxydude]

The problem is that if you lock them, and people have to go else where to post dealer reviews, then this forum will be loaded with even more threads, that may not be found for lack of useing the seach button, or the question will simply be reapeated over and over again.

Carbs- Here, take a look at the largest and most respected tennis forum on the internet: http://tinyurl.com/3y85wb. That forum is larger and has more members, more posts, and does more classified selling than this one. Note how clean and tidy the "References" section is and how clean and tidy the "For Sale" section is. You'll also find much less of the "one-upsmanship" on that forum.

You make it sound like searching another forum is cumbersome work. In reality if I'm buying a 6K Mk VI tenor I'm going to WANT to see as many references as possible---hence a "References" section. It couldn't hurt to add that to the forum.

Do people here need to be carefull on what they say about a certain horn, yes perhaps. Do they need to attack members if they think the ad is wrong? Maybe not attack.

In this instance the attack was not warranted. As I noted in that thread all the seller did was post low-quality pictures of the horn he is listing. It wasn't a matter of a few KNOWN experts saying "That might be a relacquer, have you had it checked?" It was more like average-joe saxophonists (no experts on relacquers or how to spot them) saying "That horn's a relacquer and you're selling it as original. . .this guy's a fraud!" What's more interesting is that the REAL experts on this forum (Mr. Dumars comes to mind) handled that thread very professionally while suggesting it might be a relacquer.

If I posted a horn at SOTW (which I probably won't do anymore of) with pictures and people swore up and down it was a relacquer (when I thought the horn to be original), I wouldn't change the advert until I took it to a professional and got their opinion.

That thread regarding that MK VI was a disgrace to this forum.

[Al Stevens]

It wasn't a matter of a few KNOWN experts saying "That might be a relacquer, have you had it checked?" It was more like average-joe saxophonists (no experts on relacquers or how to spot them) saying "That horn's a relacquer and you're selling it as original. . .this guy's a fraud!"
I don't remember it that way, and perhaps we each characterize it as we remember and interpret it, but then, the thread has been deleted; there's no way to refresh our memories.
What's more interesting is that the REAL experts on this forum (Mr. Dumars comes to mind) handled that thread very professionally while suggesting it might be a relacquer.
As I recall, Jason said that it was a relacquer without a doubt, and you are right, he handled it very professionally and was friendly to the seller.
That thread regarding that MK VI was a disgrace to this forum.
That's a little bit over the top. I think it was just the wagons circling when members reacted normally (if somewhat inappropriately) to a new kid on the block. But each of us has different hot buttons. Even so, I don't think one thread is sufficient justification to overhaul something that works well as a general rule.

That's only my opinion, however. If you feel strongly that the marketplace needs some kind of upgrade, maybe you could post a poll, collect the members' opinions, and, if a preponderance of members agrees and the management authorizes it, volunteer to chair a committee that designs a new set of rules, figures out how to implement them, and projects and plans for all the potential consequences.

[Saxydude]

But each of us has different hot buttons. Even so, I don't think one thread is sufficient justification to overhaul something that works well as a general rule.

Al - You're very right. I simply can't stand to see people jump allover someone about something they've posted; be it because they think it's priced too high, or a relacquer, or it doesn't make them sound like Phil Woods, etc.. I've always felt that if I'm not interested in the item, it's none of my business. Who am I to harass someone else about how much money they want for a horn?

Perhaps nothing does need to be done to the Marketplace. I just wish there were a concrete way to cut down on the idle chit-chat and "Price Patrolling" that goes on in some of the listings.

[Jonathan C.]

Saxydude, your previous post says that you are against price patolling. But I have rarely seen that. Maybe I don't look at the right threads, or items for sale. However in my opinion, the Seller is often the one who drops the price. If he gets zero feedback from the community and needs to sell it then the price may jump down. And if it keeps going down a person might value that horn at that cost. Since All the horns sold here are used, it is really up to the Buyer on what they want to spend, and what they wish to spend on that piece of equipment. As for the idle chit chat it gurantees to the Buyer that his/her ad stays in the new post section. Where the most people are going to read it.
If someone is new, and they are selling something. I think that we should of course circle the Band wagons. I don't care if the price is right, or if whatever. If the person is new, they have not gained respect of the community. So I feel that it is only natural that people want to protect their friends, and fellow saxophone players from getting screwed.
I have never seen someone complain about not sounding like a great. If they think that the equpiment will get them to that point, then they need to get a reality check. And Realize that one of the best known greats of all time Charlie Parker often used Borrowed equipment. It is the player.

Saxydude the seller recently took back his statement that the horn was original lacquer. They were not the cause of low quality pictures.

[hakukani]

I would like to note here that the thread that inspired this one has sort of resolved itself. The horn is indeed a relaq, confirmed by Roberto's. Grumps spotted it first, and several people in the know followed suit.

Segaleon is embarassed, but admitted the truth. Good on him.

So, I guess the system works, except for some bad feelings.

[Saxydude]

Saxydude, your previous post says that you are against price patolling. But I have rarely seen that. Maybe I don't look at the right threads, or items for sale. However in my opinion, the Seller is often the one who drops the price. If he gets zero feedback from the community and needs to sell it then the price may jump down. And if it keeps going down a person might value that horn at that cost. Since All the horns sold here are used, it is really up to the Buyer on what they want to spend, and what they wish to spend on that piece of equipment.

Thanks for the refresher course in basic market economics 8-). My point is that it is up to the seller to lower his price, and people telling him it's too high should not cause it. I've seen several examples where people tell someone their asking price is too high, the seller then puts the horn on E-Bay and makes MORE than his asking price (it's happened to me).

As for the idle chit chat it gurantees to the Buyer that his/her ad stays in the new post section. Where the most people are going to read it.

This is indirect bumping. What about the ads that don't generate any comments because they're short and succinct? Those good ads fall by the wayside and are quickly moved 2 or 3 pages back because of the chit-chat that takes place in other posts. That's why the rules for "bumping" were created.

I have never seen someone complain about not sounding like a great. If they think that the equpiment will get them to that point, then they need to get a reality check. And Realize that one of the best known greats of all time Charlie Parker often used Borrowed equipment. It is the player.

I was hyperbolizing. Sharpen your wit ;) .

Saxydude the seller recently took back his statement that the horn was original lacquer. They were not the cause of low quality pictures.

I saw that in his ad. He obviously did the right thing by refusing to change his ad until an expert saw the horn IN PERSON (thus my comment about the pictures being of low quality and all we here in cyberspace have to go by).

Carbs, I see you've only been a member for just over 2 months. Stick around awhile and you'll begin to see more and more of what we're talking about.

[Jonathan C.]

Carbs, I see you've only been a member for just over 2 months. Stick around awhile and you'll begin to see more and more of what we're talking about.
I hope on sticking around for awhile. Unless of course I get kicked off. Has anyone been kicked off of SOTW? :D :D 8-) :D :D

[Carl H.]

I hope on sticking around for awhile. Unless of course I get kicked off. Has anyone been kicked off of SOTW? :D :D 8-) :D :D
Not kicked off, but ask Marty where he spends the off season.:D

[Jonathan C.]

:D Didn't know their was a off season Carl.:? Dang the things you find out. :shock: I will ask him if I get a chance.:D :D

[martysax]

Not kicked off, but ask Marty where he spends the off season.:D

I spend the off season trying to get the Saxquest site to loosen up!

When I was gone for 6 months last year I felt absolutely miserable. I only felt better when people posted that they missed me.:(

[hakukani]

When I was gone for 6 months last year I felt absolutely miserable. I only felt better when people posted that they missed me.:(

Next time it happens, I'll write every day.:D;)

[Jonathan C.]

I'll wite 2 every day.

[Grumps]

Thing is, when you post to correct a mistake contained in a for sale post, some folks are going to see that as an attack no matter how you do it; especially if they spend their time here hunting for your posts and encouraging others to complain about you. I recall one individual in that latest debacle who came right out and said he didn't really care about the issue, he just wanted to prove certain folks wrong. Man, why can't people just let folks be who they are; and then figure out a way to get along with them. That's the key to getting along here; not bothering the moderators every time you feel someone isn't being nice. And yeah, that's also the key to understanding the meaning of life... but let's take one step at a time.

[Maddeaux]

I was tempted to start a thread along these same lines, but was happy I found the discussion has already begun. I may have come in a little late, but thought that I would chime in with my two cents worth on the topic of Marketplace Rules and Etiquette.

I am not in favor of adding a bunch of rules for members which in turn creates more work for the administrators. I do have one pet peave though. My understanding is that this forum is a place for all of us infected with the saxophone virus to exchange ideas, opinions, and information. We have a Marketplace to assist in finding, trading, buying, and selling items so that we can buy, sell, and trade more stuff. Basically, all of us nuts exhanging stuff back and forth for the benefit of us all (a.k.a. GAS attack relief). I did attempt to find a mission statement or other information that actually stated the purpose and intent of marketplace, but was unable to find anything specific. Maybe something should be created. I may be wrong, but I didn't think that the intent of the Marketplace was to be a source of free advertising for those that are in the business of making a living, or a significant portion thereof, from the sales of saxophone and music related items. I don't have a problem with someone who is in business occaissionaly posting an item for sale while at the same time participating and contributing to this forum, but when there is a constant posting of items for sale with little if any other contribution to this forum that is where I am having an issue. It also bothers me when these same businesses attempt to create rules of posting for the rest of us and complain when we don't follow "their" rules. I have also seen complaints about other posters expressing an opinion about their items that they don't agree with. And, to top it all off when I look at the list of those who donate to this forum they are not listed. I am not suggesting that they be banned from this forum, but if we are suggesting that any additional rules be created I think those rules should be added so that this forum benefits from some of the profits of these posters. I am not suggesting a large set of hard and fast rules, but maybe some general guidelines at least.

The adminstrators have a good idea as to the posters that I am referring to so there would not be a great deal of additional monitoring involved. Maybe an occaissional PM or email to them requesting a donation to the forum. This could possibly be based on the number of posting they make. For example after every 10 or 20 postings a request for a donation is made. A minimum donation amount should be established for them. They make the donations as requested so that we all benefit great. If not, they are asked to do their advertising elsewhere. Pretty simple I think.

Posting by them should be limited to one post to include all similiar items rather than multiple posting that have the effect of pushing other members items down the list. This might also help reduce the temptation to bump an item.

Leave the rules as they are for other members. Although, can it be set up where new members have to be approved to post ads in the Marketplace? If so, they may be required to read the rulles and sumbit an ad that follows the rules to the administrators. When they have it right they are approved for posting in the Marketplace.

I think addressing these two items would improve the Marketplace consideralby and eliminate many of the concerns people have.

As far as the etiquette...I too have seen a lot of "bad behavior" lately. I think this we can (and should) police ourselves to an extent. If you see someone getting out of line just post to the thread something like "Can we keep this polite and constructive..." No names need to be mentioned. Everyone reading the thread will know what it refers to. If someone takes offense or is a repeated offender of the posting rules then report it to the administrators.

Probably haven't made many friends here today, but that is my two cents worth.

[Maddeaux]

P.S. Since I just levied some criticism on some for utilizing the Marketplace without contributing to this forum I felt it would be appropriate to make a contribution myself. Please feel free to join me.

[hakukani]

P.S. Since I just levied some criticism on some for utilizing the Marketplace without contributing to this forum I felt it would be appropriate to make a contribution myself. Please feel free to join me.


That's the spirit!

[Carl H.]

Where's the link to the SOTW store?

[Dr G]

Funny you should ask. I went looking for it a moment ago and found it here:

http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/announcement.php?f=218

[Harri Rautiainen]

Where's the link to the SOTW store?
Ways to financially support the Sax on the Web site:


PayPal donation (http://tinyurl.com/yfabs3)
SOTW gift shop (http://www.cafepress.com/saxontheweb)
Buying Amazon items: US (http://www.saxophonebooks.com/), UK (http://www.saxophonebooks.co.uk/)
Buying Sheet Music (http://www.saxontheweb.net/Store/SheetMusic.html)
Buying from Musician's Friend (http://service.bfast.com/bfast/click?bfmid=5607334&siteid=39673246&bfpage=homepage_text)
Clicking Google ads on SOTW pages
Obviously via PayPal the donation part is largest (only reduced with PayPal costs which are fair taking into account the convenience).

[Rick Adams]

Ok here's an idea - SOTW Accredited Seller Status. If you have made say 5 successful sales here on SOTW then you can ask a mod to get references from those buyers and give you an icon to show you're accredited. Even better, the icon could be the acronym for Accredited Seller Status, so yes you too could officially become an A*S! OK, maybe not the last part, but why not something like what I suggest? It keeps it to "no more rules" but also provides a simple indication of someone's reliability. It might be a little more work at first, but once existing SOTWers were done (over a period of time, there wouldn't be any rush) it would only be occasional new people to get accredited.

[Jonathan C.]

The marketplace I feel only needs one rule.
You most state ownership, or not in the ad. (Thanks Hersch) I like Ricks post though.

[Grumps]

Ways to financially support the Sax on the Web site:
...
SOTW gift shop (http://www.cafepress.com/saxontheweb)

So if you buy a shirt, do you get a green name?

[Rick Adams]

The marketplace I feel only needs one rule.
You most state ownership, or not in the ad. (Thanks Hersch) I like Ricks post though.But can you believe what people state (ie self certify) to be true? Because if so then we don't need any changes at all because everyone's honest and trustworthy :)

So if you buy a shirt, do you get a green name?I noticed another comment you made a while back that seemed to be implying that you think people who have donated to SOTW only did so in order to look good, but I wasn't certain if that's what you were getting at... is that what you think?

[Grumps]

I noticed another comment you made a while back that seemed to be implying that you think people who have donated to SOTW only did so in order to look good, but I wasn't certain if that's what you were getting at... is that what you think?
No, I was just thinking about getting a shirt and wanted to know if my name would turn green or not.

[Enviroguy]

You know sometimes,

it's not easy being green....

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/7/77/125px-Tv_the_muppet_show_bein_green.jpg

[hornimus]

Has the official color for 2008 been finalized yet? Should there be a special congress devoted to this matter?

[Rick Adams]

No, I was just thinking about getting a shirt and wanted to know if my name would turn green or not.Thank you Grumps for that clarification. I have learned not to make assumptions but instead to ask if I'm not certain, the written word can be so easily misinterpreted. I'm sure you'll look nothing less the stunning in your new SOTW shirt :)

it's not easy being green....A great song, a true classic that should be in any halfway decent real book imho!