Antigua 590 question

[pknight]

OK, so I understand that the Antigua 590 is supposed to be a copy of the Yani 991, and that it is made in Taiwan.

I currently have a mainland-Chinese-made silver Jinyin soprano (see nightmare story in the Jinyin thread), and was interested in learning more about the Antigua sopranos after reading the recommendations posted here.

The Antigua web site is currently "under construction," so I could not get any info there. I did go to the Kessler Music web site, where there are several clear close-up photos of the black nickel and silver models of the 590. As I was looking at these photos, I had an overpowering sense of deja vu. Sure enough, when I got my Jinyin out and compared it to the close-ups of the 590, I could not find a single point on which the two instruments differed. The high F# and G keys are EXACTLY the same shape. The side E key is at EXACTLY the same odd angle. The octave key is EXACTLY the same shape. The octave mechanism on the neck is EXACTLY the same on the two horns. The left-hand pinky keys are EXACTLY the same, including the black plastic linkage between the C# and B keys (which I have never seen on another sax). And so on.

Now, I know that there could be important differences between the two saxes that don't show up in this sort of visual comparison, but I would not expect a low-end mainland sax to share its entire keywork with a sax that claims to be an almost identical copy of a Yani 991. Can somebody who is familiar with both the Antiqua and the Yani saxes comment on this? How similar are they, really?

I have owned many saxes, and there are always some differences between models, much less between manufacturers. Keys touches have slightly different shapes, the rollers are a bit different, the details of the octave mechanism are not quite the same. Except for what looks to be a brighter finish and better engraving, however, I don't think that I could tell the Antiqua from the Jinyin.

I am really interested in the Antiqua, given the recommendations that have been made for it, but I sure don't want to end up buying another Jinyin for over twice what I paid for the one I already have. So, can anyone provide any insights or assurances?

Many thanks.

[goodsax]

Go to http://saxontheweb.myforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=3363 and read Paul Coats' comments. A short sample is: "I have had the Antigua Winds A590-LQ (the top model with high G and two necks) for almost a year now. It is absolutely outstanding, and I have playe most of the newer sopranos around now, in all price ranges. I played it side by side with the similar Yanagisawa 991, and I could not tell a difference."

Jgill2000 says, "Details: Intonation - great. Construction - solid, I mean really solid. Finish - the body is perfect, the keys are about 90% of what the Yani would do. Pads - no sticking, no leaks. Included mouthpiece - throw it away and buy a good one. The included ligature is made from foil, I think. (Okay, so Yani ships nicer mouthpieces!) Notes - they all play, easily. I've been enjoying playing high "G' - much to my dog's dismay."

Yup, this is a great sax. Paul and Dave speak the truth. If you've got your mind made up to buy a big 4 sax, then buy it, and help keep the economy going. But this one is FAR better than the Yamaha 475 or 675, better than the Selmer Series II, and in the same ballpark as the big 4 high end models. If you're a student, or play for your church, or don't yet have a recording contract with a major record label, you should at least give this one a try."

These and others are the comments that sold me. Paul C. is no newbie to this game, not by light years. And Dave Kessler is a well-respected sax dealer who, I don't think, would risk the reputation of his family business by strongly endorsing an instrument that would not meet or exceed a customer's expectations for quality, durability and performance.

These are very strong endorsements from imminently qualified people, which is why I'm expecting my 582 to be delivered on Monday. But, you must decide based on what you believe best fits your needs and budget. As always, which sax to buy turns out to be a decision dictated by the personal requirements of each individual after considering all the available information such as this.

[pknight]

Thanks, goodsax. I had already read Paul's comments, which are among the favorable reviews that I refer to in my message. Often, a thumbs-up from Paul would be all I would need. However, as I said, the keywork on the Antiguas that Kessler has photos of is IDENTICAL to that on my very cheap mainland China soprano. This just seems very odd, and I'm hoping that someone can explain it to me.

That is why I am disappointed that the Antigua Winds web site is not available right now. I want to find out what they mean by "computer copy." I can imagine several things that might be implied by such a term, but so far all I see are people using the words without explaining what they mean.

I am in no way committed to buying a more expensive soprano if I can get the quailty implied by the by the reviews at Kessler's prices. Also, I am not doubting the honesty of the reviews. It's just that this keywork business is a bit surprising, and I hope to find out why these two saxes are so similar. Thanks again.

[pknight]

Well, I may have answered at least part of my own question. Since there are no Yani dealers near me where I could look at a 991, I tried the Yani and LeBlanc web sites. They both have photos, but they are too small to see any detail. (They may as well use a cartoon drawing of a sax, for as much good as those photos do.)

So, I pulled out a WWBW catalog, and while the photo is still small, it is better than the web photos. Lo and behold, the high F# and G keys on the Yani are also identical to those on my Jinyin. (The angle of the photo happned to be just right to see these keys.) It would appear that Jinyin has also copied the Yani design, although I assume to a less successful degree than Antiqua Winds.

(I'm still wondering what exactly is meant by "computer copy." Hopefully the Antiqua Winds site will be back up soon with an answer.)

Also, does anyone have any feel for copyright/patent issues in these cases? Is Antigua Winds (or Jinyin, for that matter) on solid legal ground when they copy the design of another sax in this much detail. I'm sure that Yani is not cooperating with them.

Anyway, an Antiqua Winds soprano may well be in my future.

[goodsax]

pknight - indeed you answered your own question in the manner I was about to do. It seems JinYin must have copied the Yani as well. You can model any three dimensional object in a computer these days, from a hearing aid, to a house, from a car to a saxophone. With suitable add-ons, you can even produce a 3-D model of the design before making the first cut in tooling.

Frankly, I doubt you'll get that much computer-modeling explanation from the reconstructed Antigua Winds website when it comes back up. You'll probably get the same specifications for their instruments available now on Kessler Music's website, for example.

Whether there's a patent infringement issue, or not, should not be your concern as a consumer. You buy your sax, you're happy with it, you go about your musical life in peace. Noone is going to come take it away from you, unless they're a common thief. In any case, if there was a patent issue I'm sure Yanagisawa would have raised a stink about it long before now, and Yani is not the only "standard" being copied by start-ups; Selmer Marks and Series horns have been copied for years, at least for key placement and dimensions. What's different, as far as I know, are the materials used in construction including the body the keys, the springs, etc., such that they may not be exact clones of the original. But, it seems Antigua got it pretty darn close this time - not necessarily in their earlier models.

FWIW, I believe Paul C. when he states that he has no financial link to Antigua. So, why does he gush about the quality of their 590-LQ soprano? He doesn't have to. He gets nothing for it, except the satisfaction that he once again has helped other sax players with some useful information based on his personal experience to consider when making a sax buying decision. To me, that says a lot and is worth a lot. Frankly, I'd be a bit more skeptical when similar accolades come from a dealer selling the brand, but I've decided that Dave Kessler is for real and not someone who would intentionally lead someone into making a terrible buying decision.

So, there you have it. I'm not sure what else can be said to ease your concerns, concerns that certainly are justified given your recent adverse experience with Jinyin.

Best of luck in making the decision that is right for you.

[pknight]

goodsax,

Actually, I don't have any concerns about the sax any more, and I wasn't worried about patent issues for my sake. I was just wonderning, from a legal standpoint, how these companies can so openly copy the physical design of instruments that other companies have spent a great deal of time and money developing. You are correct that the basic Selmer designs have been copied the world over for a long time, and some of those Selmers have their patent numbers stamped on the horn!

And, as I said before, Paul C's word is good with me. I just had to figure out that my Jinyin was a (rather feeble) Yani clone.

Thanks.

[Jerry K.]

Patents aren't what they used to be. Due to the near impossibility of enforcement and massive legal costs to do so, lots of companies just don't bother to get a patent. Even if a company wants to get a patent, sometimes the design is not unique enough to warrant a patent.

[DaveKessler]

Heres the official skinny:

Antigua does not claim that they are computer copying anything. No where in their literature or on their site (new or old) do they state "copy".

I am the one (along with other dealers) who are claiming this. We can claim this because we have done a side by side comparison with the Yanagisawas. We deal in both.

Also, if the horns are a true computer copy as I state, there is no infringement on anyone in the US's part for this reason: Antigua is not making anything. They have a factory in Taiwan that sells them horns. So, tecehnically, if it is a complete computer copy, it is a company solely based in Taiwan that is doing it.

Thats how I see it.

:D

[goodsax]

Thanks for the clarification, Dave. I had it all wrong and appreciate you making the correction.

On the positive side, I received my 582-LQ today and absolutely love it. I put my Yanagisawa 5 HR mpc with FL lig on the new sax and when I began to play, my wife got that look on her face that made me know I had a winner. The sound is the best of the four previous sop's I've owned: Milwaukee saxello, Unison S100GG, Monique Pro curved and a vintage Conn straight one-piece. The Antigua 582 has them all beat, IMO. It looks great with beautiful engraving, a solid quality feel and very easy to play from top to bottom right out of the case.

[pknight]

Well, I took the bait and ordered a 590-LQ from Kessler that should be shipped today. I will report on my initial impressions once I receive it.

Dave, you mentioned old and new Antigua Winds web sites. My efforts have not come up with any current web site, only one "under construction" at antiguawinds.com. I would like to learn more about the company and its products. Am I looking in the right place? If so, I will have to wait until they get things together.

[DaveKessler]

You are going to the correct address. I have not seen the new site yet but I know how Antigua will market and word things so my statement holds true based on my knowledge of the company (of which we were their first dealer).

[pknight]

You are going to the correct address. I have not seen the new site yet but I know how Antigua will market and word things so my statement holds true based on my knowledge of the company (of which we were their first dealer).

I believe you, Dave. Just looking for info. One thing that I want to check when it is available is a list of dealers, so if I ever happen to need major repairs I can find someone willing to do them. (As much as I would love to visit Las Vegas, it would probably be best to find someone closer.) The only tech we have here is reluctant to work on non-Japanese Asian horns.

I am eagerly anticipating the arrival of my 590.

[goodsax]

pknight - I'd be very surprised if your local tech turned down working on your 590LQ once he laid eyes and hands on it. It could turn his thinking around on stereotyping all "Asian" saxes. The more I play my new 582LQ, the more I just smile when I read another ill-informed slam on an Asian non-Japanese horn just because of its origin. I'll have to review Dave's post again, but if Antigua is merely a stencil for some Taiwanese factory name unknown, maybe it's time they came out of the background and start taking some well-deserved credit for taking sax production quality to a new level in their country.

[Ray]

Goodsax: glad you are liking your 582. I'm not sure what mpc you are using but if you can, try a Runyon Custom....almost spot on for intonation!
I'm also going to try a Quantum. The Bari I tried was not the piece for this horn but the Custom is nice. I'm going to try a Legere reed per Paul C. 's
recommendation...have been using Hempke or Vandoren blue.
My only regret is not trying a silver-plated horn, I've had some great response/tone out of some silver saxes.

[DaveKessler]

I'll have to review Dave's post again, but if Antigua is merely a stencil for some Taiwanese factory name unknown, maybe it's time they came out of the background and start taking some well-deserved credit for taking sax production quality to a new level in their country.

Actually, another clarification... Antigua is buying these (or better worded: is having these made for them by) a factory in Taiwan that also makes instruments for other Name Brands throughout the world. So it is really not a "Stencil" so to speak but rather an "outsourcer" so to speak.

In fact, all but 3 brand names of Taiwanese made saxophone brands are done this same way.

The only 3 Taiwanese made saxes (that I am aware of, and please correct me if I am wrong) that actually Own their respective factories are:
Unison
Jupiter
Stephanhouser (on the altos only)

Other then that, All other Taiwanese made saxes are done this same way.

Now for instance, the Antigua Yani copy models are done only for Antigua on an exclusive contract with the Factory in Taiwan. This means that you will not be able to find this same soprano under any other name.

Hope this helps clear things up some.

[goodsax]

Ray - I'm using a Yani 5 HR mpc with an FL lig and a Vandoren V16 2.5 reed. I tried a Beechler metal with the lig designed for it, but the Yani mpc wins that contest easily. Both of these seemed better to me than the mpc that came with the sax marked 4C, a number I've seen on Yamaha mpc's.

Dave - As always, your inputs help clarify otherwise vague uninformed understandings, but I'd sure like to take a virtual tour of the factory making the Antigua Winds for them. Unison shared several photos of their factory and it was very interesting. And doesn't Jinyin have their own factory? I seem to remember videos of it on a website some time ago. I guess I wasn't clear on the real meaning of the term, stencil. I have a Buescher stencil alto made for Gretsch in the late '30s coming to me early next week, but it seems the Antigua relationship to their factory is more of an OEM arrangement. Would that be more accurate?

[DaveKessler]

OEM is a good way to picture it.

Best to my knowledge, Jinyin is Chinese made. They may or may not own their factory. Couldnt tell you myself though because I have never been much of a fan of the product. Especially since one of the more "upper ups" in Jinyin USA bought a Conn trombone for his student from me rather then having them play on their own Jinyin instruments...

Also, we HIGHLY recommend the Morgan mouthpieces for the Yanagisawa & Antigua Sopranos. We think that they are the best mouthpieces for these sopranos.

[goodsax]

I agree about the Jinyin mark, but the seller who was sponsoring them on eBay a few weeks ago - don't know if he's still there - did a great job of hyping them in the description including giving the impression that they indeed have their own factory. AAMOF, go to http://www.jinyinusa.com/SaxWorks.htm to see what they call their "Saxophone Works" with several photos showing how a sax is made in their factory. I remember audio samples of players actually testing instruments coming off their sax, clarinet and flute lines. Doesn't mean that the instruments are something anyone would necessarily want to own, but the presentation is impressive.

[Ray]

Dave: Which of the Morgan mpcs do you recommend?

[pknight]

Jinyin does indeed operate its own manufacturing facilities. Jason DuMars has visited there at least once. He wrote very positive reviews of their saxes, but in another thread probably located a few lines below this one in this forum, he reports that he is having second thoughts about recommending them. You can also see, in that thread, why I am in the market for a new soprano.

Photos of the Jinyin and videos of their instruments being played are at www.jinyinusa.com. (This is not an endorsement, but the photos and videos are interesting.)

[goodsax]

pknight - If you check my previous post you'll see the same link to the Jinyin saxworks. I too did not post it as an endorsement, only to share what I thought were interesting photos of how they build saxes.

[pknight]

How'd I miss that? So sorry to duplicate content.

[pknight]

The Antigua Winds web site is up again, for those who are interested. They have VERY high resolution photos of their products.

[pknight]

Dave: Which of the Morgan mpcs do you recommend?

When I ordered my 590, Dave said they recommend the Morgan 4J.

[DaveKessler]

Dave: Which of the Morgan mpcs do you recommend?

When I ordered my 590, Dave said they recommend the Morgan 4J.

Yeah, what he said I said... except it is really a J7, I got my numbers all mixed up. Thats what happens when you decide to sell your house, buy another one & do it in the middle of the busiest time of the year!

(insert emoticon of head exploding here)

[Paul Coats]

PK, let us know when you get your A590.

When I got mine, first thing I did was call my sister (who is a fine saxophonist and gigs regularly) and said, you need to sell your soprano, you are buying a new one! She did not argue, and as always, takes "Big Bro's" advice.

She got the all silver A590-SPC, and LOVES it. She liked it so much, she then sold the Falcon she just finished (she restores old cars as a hobby, go figure!) and bought a matching silver Antigua Prestige alto.

[xuanvu]

I just got my Antigua 590LQ too and I love it. Only a small problem is that somehow the JodyJazz didn't work quite as well as the one that come with the sax! Or it's probably my own problem because I never played sax before...

[pknight]

I received my 590LQ on Tuesday.

First impressions:

1. This is one well-constructed, well-finished sax. Real nice.

2. The stock Yamaha 4C mouthpiece would be excellent if you had a gig as a snake charmer.

3. Very nice tone with a Selmer S-80 in a D facing.

4. Also a very nice tone with a Rousseau Classic 5R. However, I was not able to push this mouthpiece on far enough to get the sax to play in tune. (I had to push the Selmer piece on quite far to play in tune, but I was able to do it.) With the Rousseau, pushed in until the end of the neck was physically as far into the piece as it could be, it was still about 20 cents flat. Dave Kessler said that they had problems matching Rousseaus to these saxes, but I thought he meant in terms of tone. I get a nice warm tone with the 5R, but it would only be good for unaccompanied solos. :cry:

I was only able to play the 590 for a short time on Tuesday evening, and not at all yesterday. I should be able to get extended time to play it today, and I will report back after that. However, I do know that I will not be taking advantages of Kessler's 3-day return policy. This has to be the best value in a soprano.

Paul C.,

A Falcon? Wow! I had a friend in high school in the early 70's who had an old Falcon. He "restored" his with a can of silver paint and a paint brush! If we knew then what we knew now....

[Dave Dolson]

xuanvu: Don't fret over the JodyJazz not working for you - we are all different and thus react differently to mouthpieces. I don't think it is the horn, either - it is your embouchure.

I have a JJ (a red#7) and while it plays for me, I prefer others (Selmer Super Session-J is my #1; and a metal Link also plays better for me than the JJ).

I am intrigued by the reports about the Antiguas. I will make it a point to go to Kessler's the next time I'm in Las Vegas. DAVE

[pknight]

I have had the chance to spend a substantial stretch of time playing the A590-LQ. To make a long story short, everything that Paul C. and the other Antigua soprano players have said about these instruments is true. This is a top-quality instrument, independent of its price. At $925, it is an amazing bargain. I would not hesitiate to recommend it to anyone looking for a new soprano.

I have played it with both necks, a variety of reeds, and (so far) two mouthpieces. While the tone with the straight neck may be a bit better than with the curved neck, there isn't much difference, and it sounds great with either. Every note, from low Bb to high G plays clear with no special effort. The intonation is very good, not just by soprano standards, but by any standard.

No matter what soprano you might be considering, you owe it to yourself to look into one of the Antigua models. There are certainly sopranos as good as these, and even a bit better, but I have not seen anything close at any price near what these go for.

[pknight]

A follow-up. After a bit of sanding on the neck cork, I am now able to get my 590 to play in tune with the Rousseau 5R piece. (I can also get mouthpieces off without worrying about twisting off the octave mechanism.)

[Paul Coats]

Well, there you have it... another happy Antigua owner! PK, I also use a Selmer S80 F at times, and yes, it has to be pushed on quite for, but it plays well with this sax.

Of the three new Antiguas, I like the case that came with the A586 best, and the Antigua folks were happy to accomodate me by letting me have the gray molded case with my A590.

The Falcon... in the recent past she restored a Camaro, and an old Chevy pickup truck (late 50's) which she drives daily. She used a new "crate engine" and ignition, and had the interior done at a car upholstery shop. She added a modern radio/CD player in place of the old AM radio.

She says car body work is just like doing sculpture (she is an artist). What can I say, you know musicians!

Anyway, she likes the curved neck, and I like straight necks on sopranos. So, we traded, I now have a spare silver straight neck (for a Super 20 effect... hah!) and she has my lacquered curved neck.