Low notes

[Greyduster]

I'm sure this is some sort of embouchure or breath control problem and I would really appreciate some input. It seems to occur mostly in the lowest register. I play tenor by the way.

Say I want to play a bottom d. If I tongue the note to start it..no problem, BUT if I try and hit the note just by breathing into the mpc, say because I want the not to sound really softly I frequently get a harmonic. Same thing happens if I approach a lower not legato rather than tongueing it.

It definitely isn't the set up Yani T991 and a Lawson mpc.

I know it is just inexperience but I just can't work out how to correct it.

[Billy The Fish]

Hiya Greyduster, it must be that air you breathe up North mate. Makes you play funny :wink:

Seriously, I found your post really interesting, as I seem to have the opposite problem (surely not attributable to the North/South divide :lol: ). I have no problems with the low notes if I just breathe them to life gently, or if playing the notes legato. But sometimes (particularly when I am feeling a bit feak and weeble) I struggle to tongue the low notes clearly without getting only the harmonics as the note starts. I know how to rectify it, but it takes some concentration (opening the throat, pretending to sing a low note, making sure my air support is coming from the right place - i.e. not the chest).

I do get the problem you mention when playing legato and dropping an octave, but I know that is just because I suck :cry:

It will be interesting to see what others think.

(Oh, and by the way, I was working up in Leeds recently and took the opportunity to check out Woods - the place you mentioned in Bradford. Great place - except I ended up walking out with a new saxophone and a big hole in my bank balance. Fantastic selection of horns, both vintage and new. Thanks for the tip !)

Billy The Fish

Billy The Fish

[Anji]

My teacher has me working on this sort of attack on Bari (an chou tink dis is hard on de Tenor!)...

The drill requires you to put a constant breath of air over the reed.

You may need to experiment with tongue position, on the Bari I use the UNDERside of the tongue, which takes some practice.

With the tongue just in contact with the reed, apply sufficient breath for the reed to vibrate. You'll hear it.

This way, when you release the reed (it's like a gate) the reed should speak immediately. This should result in the first tone being softer, depending on your air support.
*****

ONE MORE THING - if you remember the intro to "Bill Nye the Science guy" from television, there is an illustration of the sort of airflow needed... how do you fog a mirror, or glasses for polishing? That's 'warm' air.

To clear a foggy window, you blow a tighter, fast stream of (you guessed it) 'cool' air.

It's more about the position of your tongue, in the back of your throat
than you may realise at first.

[singlereed]

You may well a leak or several - even if it is a brand new horn. The effect of pads leaking is to operate as an octave vent causing the harmonics, and it is most apparent playing low notes, especially softly. Get it checked by a technician or experienced player. You may be labouring unneccesarily.

[orions_belt27]

Hi Greyduster :) Yes. Leaks are very likely cause.

i have exactly the same problem as you do. tonguing low notes, no problem. but when you wanna produce a soft low note, the harmonic sings instead.

A few things you might wanna look into:

1. Embouchure Grip and Position

2. Presence of Leaks

3. Air Support & Voicing

4. Reed Strength


1. The embouchure grip and position are important. My instructor said that a very likely reason why i blow the harmonic instead is because i tense up on the embouchure and grip tightly. that will definitely produce the harmonic. Loosen up more and try again. I also found that if you put more MP in your mouth, it is easier to produce that low note (D, C etc).

2. This is more often than not the case with not being able to blow lower notes. Any leak, big or small is unacceptable. You can check for leaks by making your own leak light and sourcing out potential leaks in your horn. If present, get a tech and fix them ASAP :)

3. Air support is crucial. The air must not come from the chest or throat but you should feel the tug of air coming from the diaphragm. Use the diaphragm to regulate air flow. It's not easy. Practise with long tones and breathing exercises. Good air support can really make quite a difference in producing low notes. Coupled with Voicing, you'll find it easier to produce the low note.

4. Lastly, is your reed too hard for your embouchure to handle? Harder reeds dont mean better reeds. On the contrary i think that softer reeds require a lot more control. you SHOULD NOT be killin yourself over a hard reed, trying to force out a tone with it. kill the embouchure and u kill your playing once and for all. use a softer reed. the looseness of your embouchure should be such that when you place the MP in your mouth, you should just seal with NO TENSION BUT with FIRM SUPPORT, and blow a nice tone. the reed should be that soft to allow that kind of ease of play :)

Number 1, 3 & 4 are very interrelated. Lapse in one area and the other 2 would surely be affected. these three are crucial in producing low notes or any other notes for that matter. okie~ back to practising what i just preached :)

[Greyduster]

(Oh, and by the way, I was working up in Leeds recently and took the opportunity to check out Woods - the place you mentioned in Bradford. Great place - except I ended up walking out with a new saxophone and a big hole in my bank balance. )


Glad you enjoyed the trip to Woods Billy. Out of curiosity what did you buy?

Thanks to everyone who has posted so far. It's given me a lot to try. Much appreciated!

[Billy The Fish]

Glad you enjoyed the trip to Woods Billy. Out of curiosity what did you buy?


Selmer Reference 54. Was a fun day. I spent the afternoon there playing vintages to compare with the Ref 54. In the end the 54 just edged out a early/mid 60's Mk VI and a King Super 20 - but I would have bought all 3 if I could ! I must have tried about 20 great vintage horns whilst I was there (Conns, Kings, Selmers, Bueschers), and that was only a very small sample of what they had in stock. It was a lot of fun, thats for sure :D .

Billy The Fish

[Paul Coats]

Low notes are difficult for one reason and one reason only... leaks. They maybe be small, and difficult to find, but leaks.

If you ever get to play a sax that truly seals well, you will be amazed that the low notes blow easily, respond the same all the way down the horn, with no more resistance, and no favoring of the embouchure.

If you will access my page from the main page of SOTW, find the article on replacing pads, at the bottom there are instructions for a very inexpensive leak light.

http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/Pad_Replacement.html

When you check for leaks, do so in a darkened room, and apply light, normal finger pressure. DO NOT squeeze the keys hard trying to get a seal. You cannot play fluently and with speed like that, so don't expect your sax to seal only by squeezing hard.

The most common problems I see are:

(1) Split or dried out palm key pads, and octave vent pads.

(2) In the upper stack, the small C# pad (just under the front F key) may not seal when the left hand (B and A pads) are pressed.

(3) When the right hand keys are down, the G# pad must seal. Sometimes this pad will flex open slightly due to maladjustment. This will show up when low C plays, but C#, B, or Bb are difficult.

(4) When the G# is closed by the linkage from the right hand, both the F and E keys must seal perfectly, they must close the F# pad, and it must seal, AND the G# pad, while the G# key is pressed, must also seal. This is hard to do, and many repairmen will not take the time... after all, the sax belongs to some young kid, and they can't play low notes anyway. (I have actually heard this said more than once! )

The octave mechanism must work smoothly, and switch from the neck pip to the body pip smoothly, immediately, as the player goes from G and G# to A. IF this mechanism does not work correctly, it causes a leak that affects both registers.

For a pad to just kind of, mostly, sort of cover is not enough. All pads must do so perfectly, all the way around. There is no "good enough". There is only perfect or bad. It seals or it doesn't.

Then young players, with their leaky sax, have all sorts of response and embouchure problems, when the real problem is the sax. There is no such thing as "good enough to learn on". It MUST be good enough that a pro can play well.

I would rather perform with a Yamaha-23a or Bundy II that sealed well, than the finest pro sax with a few "little" leaks. There are no little leaks, they are all major problems.

[Gordon (NZ)]

Well said!
I am most reassured to see this written by a far greater player than myself. My perspective is 95% as a technician.

It seems to me that all the advice given about embouchure, mouthpiece, neck, etc, is to do with finding ways to 'blow through' those leaks - a band-aid, but not a cure.

[orions_belt27]

Thanks Paul~ dat's some great stuff :) now i better understand just how big the biggest culprit is when i cant seem to be able to get the low notes out.

Unfortunately, i've come across many techs that say that the sax can never be 100% leak free. that in my opinion is a pile of crap.

But on the other hand, i cant do anything about it because if the tech is unwilling to fix the horn till it's totally leak free, then it's just not gonna be done.

anyway, i'd just found a new tech but he hasnt been able to adjust the horn because he has a few jobs at hand. i can only hope and pray that he does a job well done once i'm able to have him work on it.

thanks for the insight again :)

[Paul Coats]

I have heard that said ("Unfortunately, i've come across many techs that say that the sax can never be 100% leak free.") , and the person saying it neither cares to take the time, nor has the skills to do the job correctly. When a repairman says this, it is time to find a new repairman.

[Gordon (NZ)]

Delete this!

[Gordon (NZ)]

On the other hand, in context the technician may well be saying:

"If you are not prepared to spend the money to replace all these hardened, dead pads, and attend to the mechanical issues that contribute to reliable pad sealing, then the sax cannot ever be 100% leak-proof."

[Swing It!!!! 5~6~7~8]

ya know i used to have that problem....
A piece of advice from my teacher was," To get those tuff, low notes pretend that your foging up glasses. Then after u have that thought in your mind, blow into the sax and invision the note that you want to hit." and it REALLY works!! just try it!
Good breath support is the key to playing notes without tounging :D
Hope this helps~Swing it!!!!

[Noirmusic]

Just my 2 cents...I used to have this problem, many newbies do, as well as a sharp/flat/thin high end. What solved both those problems for me is THINKING OH or AH or Eee. I am self taught so there may be a better way of explaining it but here goes... From low Bb up to F1 think OH from F#1-F2 the AH and from F#2 and above think Eeee. When you play overtones you do this as well. Play low C on OH and then without adjusting embrochure pressure use AH, it will sound at the octave, then go to Eee and ...well you get the idea. The Eee increases air speed and brings the high end out (so you don't lip up/bite) and the OH opens the throat and makes the low notes sing. Also helped me get the G2 (G with octave key) to sing clear and pure with no buzz/breaking etc. I have heard of a book "Voicings" by Sinta and am meaning to read this, I think it might be the same sorta thing... Also just a last note, the OH/AH/EEe is all done with a relaxed (or "open") throat and no embrochure change.

For what it is worth,
Michael