Soprano, Curved or straight? [Archive]

guitarbob

08-16-2003, 04:57 AM

I'm a guitar player that doubles on tenor even though I played alto and tenor long before I played guitar. Lately I find myself playing more tenor than guitar or bass, and I'm listening to more soprano. I've read several threads talking about sub $1000 sop's and I've decided to start looking for a decent sop. I bought a cheep mpc so I can play some.

So my question is simple but I'm sure it's not a simple answer, straight or curved?

When I'm playing similar models in curved or straight, I can't hear the difference (of course I suck because I've only played sop a few minutes) but when I hear others play I feel that curved is more "Sax-like" that a straight which is more "Oboe-like". The other issue is that I'm a big guy, 6'6" and my hands are huge. I feel cramped on a curved, but that may also be just in the mind, being a sop is so much smaller.

So opinions?

Dave Dolson

08-16-2003, 05:36 AM

guitarbob: For finger-room, the new curvies should be okay. Their bell-pads are on the left side of the bell and the right fingers will not touch them. This is not the case on vintage curved sops with split bell pads. My experiences with those horns were poor - one reason was because my right fingers kept touching the right-side bell pad-cup and it was distracting. Still, some mighty good players are very successful with curved Conns and Bueschers.

I've owned a cheap Taiwanese curved sop and it was unplayable because of its poor intonation. I now own a Yanagisawa SC902 and it is a wonderful saxophone. I've compared my SC902 side-by-side with a curved Cannonball and a curved Unison. In those limited settings, I thought my Yana was a superior horn. The CB and the Unison were okay and if price was an issue, either one would have served my needs. I'd advise you NOT to buy a cheap Asian curved sop. Neither the CB nor the Unison were cheap, and the Yana is downright spendy, but worth every penny of it, in my opinion.

As to curved vs. straight, some folks claim they hear a difference, but I don't. Not from the audience, not from behind the horn, and not on recordings I've made. What I DO hear is more volume when I play my curved Yana because the bell points back at my face. This is especially handy when playing in loud, amplified (read tasteless!) environments. I rarely play into microphones, so the curved sop aids my ability to hear myself. And, when travelling, the curved sop is compact and easy to carry. It is not so easy to rack on stage unless you make your own stand from an alto stand or buy a special stand (like from Myatt's in the UK).

Still, I prefer straight sops - and all sops, curved and straight, with straight necks. I have a straight neck on my SC902. Hope this helps. DAVE

Thomas

08-16-2003, 01:36 PM

I agree with Dave re: sound differences. I've solved the question by having both straaight and curved

super20dan

08-16-2003, 01:45 PM

dave,s post is right on the money

singlereed

08-16-2003, 04:04 PM

One real problem is the lack of good quality curved sopranos. One or two Italian makers produce them (Borgani, Rampone & Cazzani - I have not tried these), otherwise Yanagisawa is about your only real option - the cheap Tawanese ones would probably not satisfy you in the long run.

The best 'value' straight soprano is the Yamaha YSS475 which will do all you ask of it, and if you import from Europe, you will get one for perhaps $1100-1200 inc shipping - depending on the rate and the price you can get. The best secondhand buys would be a Yanagisawa (almost any model), Yamaha or Selmer Serie II.

I have not discussed 'vintage' sopranos, they are not my bag, but I am sure someone will suggest you should check out an old Buescher or similar.

There is a bit of a dearth of quality vintage secondhand sopranos as they pretty much went out of vogue between the 1930s and the 1960s, so very few were made. Since then, it has taken a while for the budget brands to start turning out a quality soprano. The modern pro make sopranos (Yamaha, Yanagisawa, Keilwerth SX and Selmer) are all good.

guitarbob

08-16-2003, 04:32 PM

guitarbob: For finger-room, the new curvies should be okay. Their bell-pads are on the left side of the bell and the right fingers will not touch them. This is not the case on vintage curved sops with split bell pads. My experiences with those horns were poor - one reason was because my right fingers kept touching the right-side bell pad-cup and it was distracting. Still, some mighty good players are very successful with curved Conns and Bueschers.

So the finger room is pretty much the same on straight vs. curved, as long as the bell pads are both on the left. Got it.

I've owned a cheap Taiwanese curved sop and it was unplayable because of its poor intonation.

I kinda felt the same, but like I said, I have such little experience on sop that it could very well be my poor playing. I didn't feel that the straight sops I've played were as out of tune. Since I really can't afford a Yana or Selmer, maybe this is an important factor.

........I thought my Yana was a superior horn. The CB and the Unison were okay and if price was an issue, either one would have served my needs....................

Thx, I'll look into them.

As to curved vs. straight, some folks claim they hear a difference, but I don't. Not from the audience, not from behind the horn, and not on recordings I've made. What I DO hear is more volume when I play my curved Yana because the bell points back at my face. This is especially handy when playing in loud, amplified (read tasteless!) environments. I rarely play into microphones, so the curved sop aids my ability to hear myself. And, when travelling, the curved sop is compact and easy to carry. It is not so easy to rack on stage unless you make your own stand from an alto stand or buy a special stand (like from Myatt's in the UK).

Still, I prefer straight sops - and all sops, curved and straight, with straight necks. I have a straight neck on my SC902. Hope this helps. DAVE

I'm not so concerned as to hearing myself, I almost never play in loud amplified environments and if I have to, I'll play a loud tasteless guitar :roll: . A straight sop seems to appeal to me after reading this.

Excellent feedback, thx so much.

Dave Dolson

08-16-2003, 06:34 PM

guitarbob: Happy to help.

Some clarification . . . by finger-room, I meant the the fingers' rise. True, on a straight sop you can move your fingers as high off the keyboard as you want and not bump anything. Same with curved sops with bell-pads on the left.

As to width (the spread of the fingers), it is generally the same among curved and straight sops. The length of the tube is the same for Bb sops, curved or straight (well, there was a slight difference among vintage Conns as I understand it, some straight Conns were shorter - maybe someone will correct me here). But tone-hole placement is similar, if not the same in relationship to the tube's length, on most Bb sops, regardless of shape.

About vintage vs. new, either will work. But for someone not really into sops, but still wanting something that plays well and in tune, you're probably better off buying a new or recently-made quality straight sop (if straight is what you want) like a Yamaha, Yana, JK, or Selmer. There are some nice, lower-priced sops on the market now that may be okay (like Antigua, Unison, Cannonball, from what I've read)

Vintage sops are neat but the differences in tone are subtle, in my view. I have new Yana sops (curved and straight) that are as good as my best vintage sops (Bueschers and Conn), and you may be able to get into a vintage Buescher or Conn for less than the new Big Four brands. DAVE

guitarbob

08-16-2003, 09:24 PM

guitarbob: Happy to help.

Some clarification . . . by finger-room, I meant the the fingers' rise. True, on a straight sop you can move your fingers as high off the keyboard as you want and not bump anything. Same with curved sops with bell-pads on the left.

Yes, I understood. With the size of my hands it's not so much the rise that's the problem as the curve of my fingers. My hand is a full 12" from thumb to middle finger so I have to arch my fingers high above the keys.

About vintage vs. new, either will work. But for someone not really into sops, but still wanting something that plays well and in tune, you're probably better off buying a new or recently-made quality straight sop (if straight is what you want) like a Yamaha, Yana, JK, or Selmer. There are some nice, lower-priced sops on the market now that may be okay (like Antigua, Unison, Cannonball, from what I've read)

This is where I'm leaning, especally the lower priced ones. I have an old Yamaha YTS-61 that I really like so I'm looking at the lower priced Yamahas but I've read the reports on the others as well. (Too many choices)

Thx again.

Bob

rrex54

08-17-2003, 08:32 PM

Guitarbob, I'm strictly both novice and amatuer playing SAT vintage horns -- including both curved (Conn) and straight (Conn, Martin) sops. With my large hands I find the straight sops MUCH more comfortable. The key layout on the curved horn feels more crowded and, when played with a strap (which I find a necessity for things like an open C!), positioned uncomfortably close to the body. Perhaps if I played soprano more I would adjust. However, for now the curved horn slows me down quite a bit.

That said, I have a retired (from his day job :wink: ), semi-pro acquaintance (mostly tenor and alto in that order) who recently acquired a vintage Buescher curved horn. He finds the straight horns uncomfortable. Go figure!

As far as make, I cannot comment on current/modern horns. However, elsewhere on the forum you will find a thread that seemed to boil down to this regarding new horns: Yanigisawa if you can afford one, Antigua if you need something a bit less pricey. Dave Kessler handles both and provided good comments in that thread. If you'd like to check his prices or query him, try: www.kesslermusic.com

BTW I only know Dave Kessler from his comments here on SOTW and do not profit from inclusion of his URL! :)

Dave Dolson, If I remember correctly, Conn made a few New Wonder or Chu sops that were a bit longer than most -- a longer bell. Someone here on SOTW should know the answer to that one.

rrex54

08-17-2003, 08:40 PM

OK, I should have done this before sending my last post: see the "Yamaha or Antigua" thread started by madsax for the Yani and Antigua recommendations -- and a virulent response from a Yamaha-endorsing artist.

guitarbob

08-17-2003, 10:54 PM

Guitarbob, I'm strictly both novice and amatuer playing SAT vintage horns -- including both curved (Conn) and straight (Conn, Martin) sops. With my large hands I find the straight sops MUCH more comfortable. The key layout on the curved horn feels more crowded and, when played with a strap (which I find a necessity for things like an open C!), positioned uncomfortably close to the body. Perhaps if I played soprano more I would adjust. However, for now the curved horn slows me down quite a bit.

Thx, that's exactly what I was thinking about the cramped position.

That said, I have a retired (from his day job :wink: ), semi-pro acquaintance (mostly tenor and alto in that order) who recently acquired a vintage Buescher curved horn. He finds the straight horns uncomfortable. Go figure!

Chevy... Ford... Toyota.. go figure.

As far as make, I cannot comment on current/modern horns. However, elsewhere on the forum you will find a thread that seemed to boil down to this regarding new horns: Yanigisawa if you can afford one, Antigua if you need something a bit less pricey. Dave Kessler handles both and provided good comments in that thread. If you'd like to check his prices or query him, try: www.kesslermusic.com

I've looked at the Antigua and it seems like a good choice. I really can't justify the cost of a Yana so the Antigua seems like a good compromise.

Thx.

Dave Dolson

08-18-2003, 03:14 AM

This afternoon I played my SC902 (curved Yana), my S992 (straight Yana) and a 1923 Conn straight. I compared the fingerboards on the three horns. The space between the keys were the same - the location of the side keys in relation to the stack keys were the same (albeit the left pinky table and palm keys were of different designs on all three horns).

I do not agree that a straight soprano is any easier or more difficult to play than a curved soprano, especially in the distances (spaces) between the fingers. The finger spacing hasn't changed between 1923 and 2001 (when I bought the Yanas) nor is the finger spacing any different because of the horn's shape.

The ONLY difference is that on a curved sop the bell is closer to the right fingers. When the bell pads are split, that puts a low-note pad directly above the player's right fingers. DAVE

rrex54

08-18-2003, 04:10 AM

Lest my earlier post was misunderstood, I agree with Dave Dolson that there are no diffences in key spacing between straight and curved sopranos. After all the need to space the tone holes the same limits key board differences.

What I find more difficult on my curved Pan American are two things:

the closer-to-the-body playing position of the curved sop compared to the straight

the position of the LH pinkie cluster (which I did not mention as it relates directly to the design of this vintage horn)
Personally, my fingers have never had any inadvertent encounters with the RH bell key.

I DO consider the playing position a second difference between the curved and straight horns. In fact it seems to drive some players' preferences for straight v. curved -- or, now, straight neck v. curved neck.

(In all fairness, I should note that while I have played only one other curved horn very briefly -- a Buescher, I have seen enough to know that the angles of the necks do vary a little [as they do with altos] -- and that those variations might affect an individual's sense of comfort in playing. I once even saw a vintage curved Conn on eBay that had had its removable neck straightened!)

For me I find the straight much more comfortable to play. Nonetheless I do enjoy the curved. In fact, after I got the horn and got the leaks fixed, I was so taken with it I played it for hours, including while I was driving! I simply couldn't put it down. (Aren't you all glad you don't live in NC!) However, if I didn't love my curved sop and love playing it, I wouldn't keep it. With luck I will never have to choose. However, if I had to keep only one sop, it would be my straight Martin stencil for comfort compared to the curved and sound compared to my straight Pan American (that plays with a lighter, more enjoyable touch).

As Dave's, my friend's, and my own feelings and experiences should indicate, other people's mileage may vary -- and certainly their preference will!

guitarbob

08-18-2003, 06:31 PM

So before there's any bloodshed here I decided to go to a local Sam Ash and play some soprano's. A few weeks ago I bought a cheep plastic mpc and a few reeds to try to get a feel for the embrochure.

They had a couple of student models, Jean Baptiste and Buescher, and a couple of more pro models, Yamaha YSS-475 and a Cannonball curved.

I found the student models exactly as I expected, I could play them ok but the tone was thin and reedy. The intonation was terrible, but then I played the pro models and I'm sure it's me (I learned that I suck at sop :oops: ). I'd honestly be happy with either of these for the short term but I'm sure there are better mid priced saxes.

The Yamaha was fuller sounding and easier to key than either of the student models but the Cannonball was GREAT. I didn't feel at all cramped on the curved sop and the tone was far richer than any of the others.

Much to my suprise I found I prefered the feel of the curved sop. Maybe the Cannonball was simply a better instrument but I was far more comfortable with it that any of the others.

So I learned a lot in the short time I was there. Mostly I learned that moving to sop is going to be exactly as much work as I expected, but it also should be a lot of fun.

Thx everyone for your help.

rrex54

08-18-2003, 08:24 PM

Aw, heck, we spill a lot of words and waste a lot of time, but the blood has yet to flow! Of course, you've now spoiled our fun. After all those medival clerics pretty much exhausted the angel and head of a pin question and the Dr. Strangeloves stopped counting nukes after the fall of the Soviet Union, debates about equipment are about all that's left. And now you've taken that from us! :(

You have opened a can of worms though. Among new horns, everyone seems to agree that the Yani curved sops are THE ones to get.

While you save your shekels for the Yani, maybe we could debate the possible merits of a saxello-style horn instead? :evil:

(OK, OK, just kidding)

Zman

08-18-2003, 08:44 PM

I eventually made a mid-20s Conn straight my main squeeze, for two reasons: tone and action. It just felt right to me. Series III sounded too legit for my taste(again, totally subjective). The low-end clones just don't cut it for an experienced musician. Build quality on the YSS-475/675 is superb IMO, but the sound just isn't my thing.

Oh, also, straight just feels right to me. On the other hand, Paul Coats (a player's player) blows the doors off on his Antigua curved. Go figure.

Bottom line: play the sop that works well for you and frees you to express yourself. If the CB makes you happy and plays in tune with itself, go for it.

goodsax

08-18-2003, 09:17 PM

Zman -

I recently acquired a mid-20s Conn straight sop and I love the tone quality, but I'm having trouble adapting to the upper palm keys for high D, D#, E & F. They seem to be farther away from the octave key than I'm used to. (My other sop's were a Unison S100GG straight, Milwaukee Pro saxello and a Monique Pro curved. <ducking>) Also, does yours have the enclosed ring for the right thumb? If so, are you comfortable with its position, or have you made any modifications to it?

To stay closer to the topic, I prefer the straight over the curved because it doesn't feel as cramped and - you're going to love this - it's easier to find a stand for straight sop's. <g>

I eventually made a mid-20s Conn straight my main squeeze, for two reasons: tone and action. It just felt right to me. <snip>

rrex54

08-18-2003, 10:10 PM

I am proud of this group for finding new ways to keep equipment debates going! Now we have the vinage v. modern thing -- and accessories! :lol: For stands, see:

http://saxontheweb.myforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=5221

Zman

08-18-2003, 10:29 PM

Goodsax, I did not have any trouble adapting to the palm keys, although they are different from modern to be sure. I wonder if Runyon palm key risers might help?

However, the thumb ring really bugged me, so Steve Goodson replaced it with a Yamaha-style black rubber/plastic thumbhook. Much more comfortable!

BTW gang, my sop is in mid-rebuild after replating. Satin silver body, bright silver keywork and inner bell. It's gorgeous, man.

>>>SAX PLAYER FANTASY ALERT<<<

I just know that the fresh plating will make me a better player. :roll:

>>>END SAX PLAYER FANTASY ALERT<<<

Paul Coats

08-19-2003, 03:20 AM

guitarbob

08-19-2003, 10:25 PM

Guitarbob: Sounds to me like you are more interested in playing soprano sax onstage... that is, through a mic. In that case, there is no doubt in my experience. You need a curved soprano. Others have mentioned above my two suggestions, the Yanagisaw and Antigua curved models. I have an Antigua A558 curved.

Well I am, but I'll be playing in smallish rooms. I can't remember the last time I even used a mike on the Tenor. I don't expect miking to be an issue.

I didn't even know Antigua made a curved sop, it's not listed on their web site or on the Kessler page. I e-mailed Kessler for more information adn here's his reply.....

Bob,

There are the old models and the new models. The old models are now discontinued and play like typical Taiwanese soprano saxes. Nasally and quirky on the intonation side. These models are:
A560
A570
A580

The new models are the ones that are getting all the hype on the forum. The top model (A590) is a perfect computer copy design wise of the Yanagisawa S991 and is wonderful. The other 2 models use the same design but have certain features spec'd off. They are:

A582 (one-piece body, high F#) $695.00
A586 (double necks, high F# - Personal Favorite) $850.00
A590 (double necks, high G - Direct S991 Copy) $950.00

Also, if you want anything other then the standard brass lacquer, they only do those on the 590 model. in black, 590BC is $995.00 and in silver 590SPC is $1020.00

Dave Kessler
Kessler & Sons Music
http://www.kesslermusic.com
Las Vegas, Nevada USA

Regardless of tone differences, for playing with a mic the curved is the thing. Play it with the mic 3"-6" from the bell , and about the same above, with the curved sopano. The one mic will pick up the full range rather evenly, from the bell, and from the upper tone holes. It is very difficult to get an even mic sound with a straight soprano and a single mic. And if using a clip-on mic, same thing, use the clip-on mic just as you would for alto or tenor.[/quote]

If I ever do use a mike on the tenor, I usually stand back about a foot to get a more balanced tone. I've never used a clip on, although I use a headset vocal mike and just push it aside to play sax. The clip on might be a good idea.

Thx for the input.

Paul Coats

08-20-2003, 12:25 AM

Here it is on the Antigua Winds site:

http://www.antiguawinds.com/products/saxophones/A558LQ.html

guitarbob

08-20-2003, 04:54 AM

Here it is on the Antigua Winds site:

http://www.antiguawinds.com/products/saxophones/A558LQ.html

Thx, notice that in the drop down menu the curved is next to the Tenors. I musta missed that, being as I was looking for a soprano. :oops:

SuiZen

08-20-2003, 10:41 PM

I have an Antigua A558 curved.

Paul,

I know you gave the Antigua straight soprano an excellent review, and I recently purchased one and like it a lot.

How does the curved model compare, e.g., intonation-wise, with the straight.

Bill

guitarbob

08-21-2003, 05:50 PM

I have an Antigua A558 curved.

Paul,

I know you gave the Antigua straight soprano an excellent review, and I recently purchased one and like it a lot.

Bill

That's good to hear, I just placed the order for a A586, the straight Yana copy. Chuck Kessler claims that unless your a monster player you'll have a hard time telling the difference. I'm not a monster player so......

SuiZen

08-21-2003, 06:10 PM

That's good to hear, I just placed the order for a A586, the straight Yana copy. Chuck Kessler claims that unless your a monster player you'll have a hard time telling the difference. I'm not a monster player so......

I went with the A586 too. Not only is it a great sax, but the case is very, very nice. This was my first real experience with a straight soprano, and I got it due to the curved neck, which I never use. So, for me, I could have been happy with the 582.

You've got something to look forward to. Good luck with it.

Bill

Ray

08-22-2003, 02:01 PM

I'm getting one also, should be coming in next week. I chose the 586 as well.

Paul Coats

08-22-2003, 03:13 PM

I play up to high A3 and Bb4 ( in the altissimo register), so, using the high G key along with the palm keys is very limiting. I use the high F# key and front F key, plus RH1, for high G, and several other fingerings for G, depending on where I am coming from and going to. The high G key itself is not that useful to me. So, yes, the 586 is perfectly adequate. I would have gotten that, but after playing the A590 prototype, I knew I had to have one, and the 590's were the first to come in.

BTW, the extra G tone hole, and added keywork is the ONLY difference between the 590 and 586. There is no difference in finish, engraving, quality, tone, or anything else. It is like buying a car with or without a sunroof. An extra feature, but not a difference in quality.

I agree about the excellent case on the 586, and traded my 590's case for a 586 case, which I like even better.

My 558 curved has excellent intonation, octaves very true, no tendency to sharpness on the high end. Low register A to high register A is very good, too. I did open the low C key, and low B and Bb each about 1/8". That opened up the tone on the low end and brought the pitch up to just right.

One thing others in the sax ensemble have commented on, though not audible to the audience, they say they can hear me better with the curved soprano. In an non-amplified situation, there is no difference in tone out in the audience between straight and curved sopranos, or, if there is, it is so minor as to be insignificant. Certainly not a matter of better or worse.

Bob, I think you will be very impressed with your 586. Try it with a Runyon Custom 6 or 7.

Noel Mac

08-25-2003, 02:34 PM

One thing I noticed when I bought my soprano, a yanigisawa 902, was that higher end of the horn seemed to pop out easier, especially altissimo. I've played several curved sopranos and the only differences I noticed were feel and the fact that the curved shot the sound right back in your face. Myself, I like the feel of the straight sopranos more. A lot of the guys who help me with equipment purchases say that curved vs. straight just comes down to the player.

Bootman

08-25-2003, 09:56 PM

I have just picked up my Saxello, this is the best as far as combination of sound and projection is concerned. The horn is modern sounding with vintage undertones, seriously the best Sop I have ever yet found.

Morry

08-26-2003, 12:39 AM

Bootman,

What brand is it? Is it the Rampone & Cazzani or another?

Grumps

08-26-2003, 02:37 AM

Nothing like a big man playing a little curved soprano....
..... and even better when paired with a smaller man playing a bass sax. That's the shtick we do in our dixieland band. I hope you're happy with your decision, but if you ever come across an old Buescher curved soprano..... Grab It! A tank should be that solid and a song bird as lyrical. Mine is only keyed to high Eb, but I can play through up to an A3..... but only if I want to hurt somebody.