Suddenly I've started playing a 1/2 tone higher!!!

[Konrad]

Anybody know what's going on? I can't figure it out. One day everything was find, the next the sax sounds raspy and if a song is in F# I have to play G on the tenor instead of G# to play in tune. I thought there was something wrong with my CD, but my guitars are all in tune with it, so it's not that...

I've been playing really quiet so as not to bug my neighbors. Sometimes with a mute. Could it be the sax? Or have I done something to my embouchre or my ears!?!

This is really frustrating, actually.

K

[orions_belt27]

maybe you should adjust the mouthpiece then...?

[Konrad]

Orions,

It doesn't seem to be the mpc. I've tried two or three different ones. Pulling them out. Pushing them deeper. It's really strange. I play in tune, but 1/2 tone higher. It's like a guitar tuned to the wrong pitch. I can't figure it out.

K

[orions_belt27]

It doesn't seem to be the mpc. I've tried two or three different ones. Pulling them out. Pushing them deeper.

whoa if dats the case, then it seems to be some other problem which i myself dun understand..

hm... how did u manage to play in tune in the beginnin then? did u do some drastic change to the sax after dat or sumthin?

[Konrad]

Dude,

I've never had a problem playing in tune. Just one day, bam, I'm a 1/2 step off. I can still play the tune, no problem. I'm just playiing in G when I should be playing in G#. It's bizarre.

K

[orions_belt27]

holey sheesh.. dat has got to be the first of such a case i've heard.. so you are playin in a flatter key to get the key u want but still in tune... okie... SURE IS BIZARRE hohoh~ sounds like the tone holes have a life of their own shiftin where they want to, when they want to... heh~

you know wat, i suggest a trip down to the tech :)

[MS]

Konrad, as an experiment when I was working on a classical piece for a graduate recital (seems like a million years ago), I pulled my mps about 1/2 inch further out on the neck than I normally played, used more embouhure tension and re-adjusted my voicing so I could make a smaller quiter sound (to match and blend a tenor sax with a violin).

It is possible to play relatively well in tune with the mouthpiece in a variety of places on the neck, but the sound will be different, and will require varying amount of effort on the players part. Checking the regular fingerings with overtone pitches will help get you in the ball-park of where the mps needs for the horn to be in tune with itself.

I would suggest that you play somewhere the next couople of days where you can play LOUD, and with a big tone. I suspect you may have done something similar without intending to (using too much embouchure tension and not enough air/muscle support when playing soft).

Using plenty of air and loud, try playing as sharp as you can -then to as flat as you can (going flat will take much more air). Pick about the mid-point between these two and set your ears for that sound. Keep it as you play some long tones, using as much air muscle as you can manage.

If you are fimilar with the mouthpiece alone exercise (on tenor concert G just below A=880). This is detailed on the opening page of the forum in articles by Paul Coats. Might be worth giving this a try to see if you can reorient your embouchure tension, and get the air moving and passages relaxed.

If this doesn't help, and your horn is in good working order, I'm not sure what may be going on. Does this happen with different reeds also?

If the mouthpiece alone exercise works for you, five minutes of this might be a quick way to get your embouchure in the ball-park each day you practice. Good luck and hang in there! :D

[Gordon (NZ)]

Are you playing in a considerably warmer environment? That raises the pitch a lot? And probably lowers the pitch of your guitars.

Is your breath polluted with something lighter than air, such as helium or hydrogen? Hehe!

Is your embouchure tightening up in your efors to play softer, hence raising the pitch?

You need to test with a tuner, not a CD or guitars.

[Konrad]

Thanks guys.

Gordon, I hope you're right and that is all that is going on.

K

[orions_belt27]

hopefully it's the environment then~ Konrad is there some sorta heatwave goin in Poland or sumthin?

hm, am correct to say dat if the sax is cold, it would tend to play flat? :)

[Ritchie]

Yes, saxophones go sharp in hot weather, flat when it is cold. This is because the speed of sound is faster with higher temperatures, which has a much greater effect to the pitch than the saxophone becoming longer due to thermal expansion.

[orions_belt27]

Yes, saxophones go sharp in hot weather, flat when it is cold. This is because the speed of sound is faster with higher temperatures, which has a much greater effect to the pitch than the saxophone becoming longer due to thermal expansion.


i see.. :) dat's a pretty interesting effect there~

[Konrad]

Really?

We've had a tremendous heatwave. I went to an old mpc last night with a smaller opening. It's more in tune than before, but the tone of the sax (or me) has gone to pieces.

I'm still struggling with it.

K

[DougR]

Konrad, what are you using as a reference pitch, the best is an electronic tuner.

In hot weather:
Saxes (and other woodwinds) go sharp.
Piano goes flat.
The glue melts in violins.
Pipe organs go sharp (not to badly because they are usually in cool buildings).

In cold weather:
Saxes go flat
Piano goes sharp
The wooden bits of violins and clarinets crack.

All the best

[Bill Mecca]

Konrad,

have you checked for leaks, around the octave key or the body octave vent?

I recently lost my ability to play in tune, one note sharp, the next flat. My repair tech took a good look at the horn. I have a neck mounted mic pickup that has been plugged for years. Apparently that was leaking, and messed up my intonation. A little epoxy and things were cured.

[Gordon (NZ)]

DougR, are you sure pianos change in pitch? Essentially iron strings mounted on essentially iron frame would both have the same expansion/contraction. Don't almost all pianos have an iron frame?

My tuner always agrees with my piano, apart from the very gradual flattening with time.

[DougR]

Gordon, the strings usually have a steel core and the chances of that having exactly the same characteristics as the iron frame are slim indeed.
That said, the piano in my parents home had a wooden frame and did go flat at higher temperatures.

I have never known a piano hold tune well through a 15 degree (celsius) change in ambient temperature.

Poland has recently had a heatwave with daytime highs in excess of 40 C, they have winter lows of -30C. Leaving as an open question,
How well in tune is your piano?

[Gordon (NZ)]

I can't give you figures, and I don't want to chill my hose at present to take measurements.

BTW the issue is not how well in tune the piano is, but how stable that tuning is with change in temperature.

Coefficient of thermal expansion for iron is about 11.8, & steel is about 13 (x 0.000001 per degree K), as far as I can ascertain. Presumably the difference, 1.2, would be the expansion affecting the pitch. I can't be bothered researching the formula for the effect this would have on pitch over say 15 degrees C. However I am sure this effect is miniscule compared with the effect of air temperature on a sax.

[DougR]

Checking the recent weather records for Poland suggests that 45 Centigrade is a plausible temperature.

The speed of sound would be (approx) 358.85 m/s

At 20C the speed of sound is approx 343.46 m/s

So this is 4.5% sharp on just the temperature change, this number could be quite different if there is also a change in humidity.

One semitone is 5.9%.

So it seems fair that the sax would seem appoximately a half tone sharp.

Gordon: the calculations for the piano problem are (as usual) more complex. You would also have to know the stiffness of the steel involved as the change of pitch would result from the drop in tension.... Probably best not to bother with the numbers.

[Billy The Fish]

:shock:

[Zman]

:dazed: