professional saxophone career dilemma [Archive]

DocEash

08-08-2003, 11:12 PM

Soo I am a 18 year old guy, I decided not to pursue jazz studies but instead to pursue a life long dream of becoming a doctor so I got lucky enuf to be selected for a 8year dual degree med program

now on with the story....

When I was contemplating if I should pursue a career in saxophone performance in mainly jazz, I started conjuring this huge dilemma inside of me. As far as my playing goes, u can say Im an advanced student, got the jazz theory down pretty well, not a bad piano player either. I play gigs with alot of cats in the cinci area too. But as far as what I was listening, the term "jazz" was so broad and huge that I could't classify the realm of jazz I wanted to pursue. In other words, you have miles davis, and dave holland, and danilo perez, and duke ellington, but each style is different to the extent of me wondering, in what idiom will my professional career be focused in?

I visited many prominent schools of music as well in my beginning stages only to find that the startling fact that each school had a different "sound" to it. The cats at UNT did extremely modern stuff while some of the guys at Cincinnati conservatory of music stuck to bop. I went to Newyork to visit new school and manhattan school of music, and the sound was different again. I concluded a few things from my observations. The world of modern jazz is one a man of bebop cannot function in. If one expects to play at the village vangaurd and birdland, one usually must master the contemporary jazz sound. And so I got started thinking that this long Ive been listening to guys like cannonball and parker, but in reality, the modern saxophone sound is based of the playing of lovano, osby and coleman.

But in the end, we all do it because we love it. I love to listen to joe lovano and I love to listen to cannonball, but I sound more like the latter. as far as getting gigs goes, the professional jazz scene is one my playing would not exist in. I have a friend whoes a beastly bopper, a true gem of his day, but compared to all the stuff the guys at UNT and Berklee are playing, he sounds ancient. In the ever-evolving world of modern jazz, will there be room for all idioms to fully be represented? and in the end, It came to the ultimate conclusion that society itself governs what they want to hear. There's a reason u dont want to hear new orleans jazz in new york, theres no ear for it there, and in turn that means no money, but for the straight ahead bop guys like me, where are we to go? New York and Chicago are jazz jungles filled with cats who know the latest hippest ideas, but in this day and age, one cannot go to a random city and witness jazz in the brilliance that it was 50 years ago, I wanna be able to go to Fargo, North Dakota and hear the "Fargo jazz sax player whoes got lall the chops". but the public has no taste for jazz

and that saddens me...... :oops:

Razzy

08-09-2003, 12:23 AM

If you want to consider a career in music you've got to be realistic about it. You need to be a very versatile player. This usually means not only playing in various styles on the saxophone, but also being able to double on flute and clarinet, sometimes even piccolo. It just takes a lot of study and a lot of hard work. One area you did not mention was Philadelphia, and I'll tell you, there are plenty of great boppers here. However it is sort of blended with a modern sound. Some great jazz cafes in philly I go to, I always hear bop played with a sort of modern twist to it. Most of these guys are boppers who just adapted to survive and make a living. They also do other things.

If you want to play only saxophone, especially, you will need to know all of the styles pretty well. Smooth, funk, R&B, bop, fusion, classical. You should also really have your classical musci down. A local player by the name of Chris Farr, one of the best sax boppers I've ever heard, does not double, but he also plays smooth jazz, funk, R&B, and has some real good reading chops from playing with Maynard Ferguson's Big Bop Nouveau for a few years.

So basically, you're really setting yourself up for failure if you cling to one style and expect to make a living off of that. Ever take a look at those guys in the late night bands? Conan O'Brien and David Letterman, their sax players have four saxes, a clarinet, a flute, a piccolo, and sometimes more isntruments. That's what it takes to be the best.

But, if you want to be a doctor and pursue that, then you can definitely stay with one style of jazz on the side. The thing is, from what I know, music and medical practice are really going to conflict. Both basically take up a great deal of one's life, if you can find room for both, kudos!

Razzy

08-09-2003, 05:27 PM

Heh, nobody else has any thoughts on this? at 52 views? Come on, surely someone must disagree with me, somebody always does :roll:

Manny

08-09-2003, 05:47 PM

Nope, sounds like you nailed it razzy... :D thanks for the info, I'm in a similar predicament.

paulwl

08-09-2003, 05:48 PM

Here I am...just had to think it over a bit (and reflect on your kind contribution on another thread :)...I'd agree with you, but emphasize that there's a lot more to music - including paying music - than playing full time, making a living from music alone. That's the toughest road there is - you do have to be all things to all people. The phone doesn't ring enough for any one kind of music - no reflection on you, just the law of the marketplace. But some greats have day-gigged without being considered stumblebums. Wes Montgomery always had a day job and no one ever called him a second-rate musician. In some ways, it's the best of both worlds, if you can work out the time and logistics of it all.

Dr G

08-09-2003, 05:50 PM

OK, I'll share my perspective. I, too, wanted to be a Musician when I was 18. It was my life. By the time I graduated from high school I was performing with at least 4 bands concurrently. I played on the east coast for a year and then went to UT on a music scholarship - playing bassoon in the orchestra and tenor in the jazz bands. And I was playing in Top 40 groups five nights a week. I was consumed. And then the light came on - I wanted a career that could support a family.

Now, at 48, I have a day gig that pays well (I'm a Ph.D. in materials science) and I perform with an excellent contemporary big band and a superb classical quartet. My playing is the best that it's ever been and I've a comfortable life without worrying whether I'm going to find the next gig to put food on the table.

That was my compromise and it works for me. Just because a person chooses a path to a profession other than music doesn't mean that they are letting the music in them die. Far from it.

Good luck in making the choices. And good luck in having those choices work for you.

DocEash

08-09-2003, 08:02 PM

In the end for my, my decision came down to how I would be most happy

I know I have a beautiful love of jazz but in the end, all the hardships, the not getting called, the having to scrounge around to just make enuf money for the rent, its not a life I could be happy with

That sadness would be reflected in the way I play

08-09-2003, 08:49 PM

Sounds like you'd be better off, and enjoy it more, if you played music "on the side," rather than trying to make a living out of it. That's sort of how it evolved for me. Now I play gigs that I enjoy more of less for the fun of it, although I do get some $$. I'm more in the blues, R&B style, mainly because that's what I seem best at playing.

By the way, did you ever hear of Eddie Henderson? He's a fabulous trumpet player who is also a doctor. Just goes to show it can be done.

jazzbluescat

08-09-2003, 10:11 PM

DocEash,
For the most part I go with Dr G & JL. If I were you(and I know I'm not :) ), I'd go for the med career, per se, and an artistic thing "on the side." I'd find my voice, so to speak, and specialize on one instrument, including composing and arranging of course.

AMASAX

08-09-2003, 11:05 PM

listen to 'Dr G', kid...if not, one day you'll probably wake up and find out it ain't so 'glamorous' working when everyone else's off work, while having found out you topped out $$-wise long ago, and there's no where to go.

"World's best hobby, world's worst profession"

Razzy

08-10-2003, 04:28 AM

But at the same time, realize it can be done. Music CAN support a family. And that part is not really about being great; being great at many styles of performance gets you more calls, sure. By being realistic I also mean realizing that you need to teach if you expect to make a living off of it. In some way, it's almost a necessity. I'm sure there are those lucky few who get by without teaching, but I doubt they make 120 grand a year!

My teacher currently makes 120,000 per year, roughly. He supports a wife and four children.

And here's how 3 of my fellow students are doing: one of them made 60,000 from gigs and teaching in his FIRST year of college. FIRST. The only teaching job he has is at a local high school and also private students. Another made 40,000 his first year of college, and is now a local teacher and player, just like my very own teacher, making about 70 grand a year. Another is a theater doubler and makes roughly 50,000 a year. He is in his 3rd year of college.

These are only the guys I know personally. I'm sure there are many other success stories. Sure, art is the focal point, creating something. But you also have to figure out how you can make the most money from your art. And like all of them have said or communicated in some way: if you can get out and devote yourself to it, trying to make the most money possible doing your thing, it's the best life imaginable. It's busy, sure. But what fun is an unbusy life! I love being busy. It's the only way I stay happy. Did I mention I'm a perfectionist and crave tons and tons of work :roll:

jp3

08-10-2003, 06:37 AM

If you have the grades, test scores, financial resources and the drive to do an 8 year med school grind, that's an opportunity that doesn't present itself to a lot of people.

With a professional day job, you then have the luxury of playing what you want, when you want and the $$$ aren't the primary consideration.

Denny Zeitlin is another example of people living in both worlds. He plays jazz piano in the SFO Bay area with his trio, he records and has a day job as a psychiatrist.

queperknuckle

02-23-2006, 01:05 AM

I just graduated from college. I'm 25 and I'm working as a computer programmer. I've spoken with a lot of local professional sax players (who I've taken lessons from), and they seem to all agree that getting working and playing saxophone on the side is the way to go. The reasons for this were that, number one, you would be able to play for enjoyment and doing the gigs that YOU want to do and not because you have to. Secondly, it is hard to start a family as a professional gigging musician. You're just not grounded. It requires a lot of travel. Thirdly, most musicians don't have medical benefits, which is a must when you have a family. Either you have to marry someone with those benefits (I mean, look at Mike Brecker. He's got a wonderful wife and medical benefits) or you're just in trouble if you get hurt.

If you become a professional musician, I think the advantages are that you'll reach your true potential at being a sax player because you'll be playing all the freakin' time and you'll be doing something that you obviously truly love doing. Just the fact that you're on this forum means that you love it. You won't become a truly exceptional sax player unless you do it as a career. You just won't have the time to put in the hours of practice. But, you can still be very good, start your own band, and impress people. It can still be alot of fun.

I think nowadays, the competition is tough out there. You've got to be proficient at a lot of different styles and you've got to be really good to make a living being a sax player. Then again, you should be good at any profession you choose.

Personally, if I were you, I'd go for the medical degree and minor in music. If music turns out to be your true calling, you can change your mind.

Giganova

02-23-2006, 02:02 AM

Hey DocEash --

just listen to your heart and pursue your dreams.

When i was 18 i had the dream to become an astrophysicist and work for NASA, even though i was born and living outside the US. I talked to famous scientists working in that field and asked for advice. They all just smiled at me, belittled me and suggested to pursue a "regular" career because my dreams were too high. Well, i do have PhD now, are a professor for cosmology at a reputed university and have a great position as astrophysicist at NASA. when i come home at night I play my sax -- the other passion in my life -- and can say that I am happy with my choices.

You can achive anything if you believe in yourself and your dreams, but be realistic.

saxfreak

02-23-2006, 05:59 PM

I'm glad this old thread was revived, because this is an interesting topic. In my experience, I went to college as a music performance major (clarinet) and expanded to woodwind instruments. My musical goals kept evolving into something different (symphony orchestra player, to studio doubler, to woodwind instruments college teacher). After I graduated with bachelor's & master's degrees I was teaching private students and waiting for the L.A. Phil to knock on my door and offer me a job (surprisingly enough that didn't happen). When I got married, I needed a regular job so I found an entry-level job through a newspaper ad. Eventually I stumbled into a career in a field that didn't require prior experience and have been making a living at that for 25+ years. My music participation was in hibernation for about 10 years, but I kept playing a little bit and practicing during that time. About 15 years ago I fell into a connection to pay pit orchestra work on a fairly frequent basis. That has expanded into quite a bit of playing opportunities of various types of playing. I'm more involved as a player than I have ever been before.
The best thing for me is that I can play music for the joy of playing, and it's not a job. I can leave my day gig at the office and enjoy participating in music in my "other life". I didn't have this kind of perspective when I was a music student. I am very grateful for my music school training, however. It gave me an opportunity to pursue my passion at that time of my life, and it gave me skills that are helping me out in my musical endeavors at this time in my life.
For someone who is making a decision about a course of study, that would be a hard decision. Having a career in a stable, non-musical field is the practical choice. Music can be studied on the side and pursued as a creative outlet, without the pressure of depending on it for your livelihood. Alternatively, if you focus on music in school, and it doesn't pan out as a career, you can find something else to support you and play music on the side. But that rules out some careers, like medicine, that require lots of education.
From DocEash's last post, it sounds like you committed to the medical career, which is probably the best choice for you. I hope you are able to continue to play and study music on the side, and music is always an important and rewarding experience for you.

redhead

02-24-2006, 07:58 PM

I haven't quite reached the dream yet, but I'm still working on it. When I was 7 I wanted to be an opera singer, unfortunately bad experiences with warbly women put me off!

So when I left school I had a choice- either become a lawyer or errrmmm a silversmith, ('what's that?' they all said in the career's office!)I chose to study law as it brings in the money. There is no guarantee that with any form of artistic pursuit it will pay, and this includes music as well. Or course there are highly paid musicians and artists, but for every one of those, there must be hundreds who scrape a living from their craft. However, I didn't give up with the silversmithing- I've had a few basic lessons, got a whole library of books, and a corner in the garage which is my workshop where I sit and make things. I would not necessarily be able to make what I like if I was following commercial needs. I would like to be able to make a living from the silver work, but it would be a big step. It's not quite what I want, but a good compromise.

However, now I've got the sax, things could be different. I'm not working at present, and hope to do some gigs and/or sing as well in the near future.

Everyone talks about professional musicians in the sense of being paid, but don't forget that there are hundreds of amateurs who do gigs, concerts, play for theatre groups etc etc who never get paid, but take a very professional approach to their music, and are every bit as good!

Redhead

ThreeSaxes

01-19-2007, 11:39 PM

Well, I may be beating a dead horse, but here's another diatribe in support of being a musician on the side.
I was an engineering major in college, and I played in the marching band as a way to blow off steam (and meet girls, of course). Since college, I've somehow managed to play in bands almost continously until the present time. For a brief period, I was actually a "professional" musician (no day job), but it was one of the worst periods of my life! Most of that had to do with the style of music I was playing and the personalities of the other guys in the band, but I was actually glad when that gig ended. Now, I'm fortunate to be working in a musically-related field (as an acoustical engineer), and playing in a funk band that's been around for about eight years. I took up bari a couple of years ago and am having a blast playing it (and doing some of my best playing, I think).
It is possible for music to make a significant contribution to your life without it being the only thing that you do (and often the music is better that way).
Here's a quote from one of my favorite authors (Heinlein): "A man should be able to do many things. Specialization is for insects."

Neil Sharpe

01-20-2007, 03:18 AM

Here are interviews with three pro players, their experiences, and the decisions they made about their careers. I'm not suggesting in any manner that any or all are typical, only that they do provide some insights into the career of a professional musician whether it be in jazz, pop, or blues and rock n' roll.

I'd also recommend Ernie Krivda's beautifully written and insightful newsletters on jazz.
http://www.erniekrivda.com/newsletter.php

John Barrow- How NOT To Make It In the Pop World
http://www.saxontheweb.net/Resources/JohnBarrow.html

Ken Fornetran- Jazz And The Touch of Zen
http://www.saxontheweb.net/Jazz/KenFornetran1.html

Johnny Ferreira- Rock n' Roll Saxophonist
http://www.saxontheweb.net/Rock_n_Roll/JohnnyFerreira1.html

heath

01-20-2007, 05:26 AM

Of course this topic was started by an 18 y.o. that is just getting started in life.

I had many pre-med students in my classes when I was going to school and it's always interesting seeing what happens the last semester of their senior year. Many are very good students, but the relentless b*** kissing that a prospective med student has to do to get into school takes it toll. Many students will burn out their last semester. I think it's important not to get too excited when you're just starting out. Do the work it takes, but if it doesn't happen there are lots of avenues one can take to make a living.

As far a being a pro saxophonist and a doctor. It can be done, but I can tell you that while your taking 20 credit hour semesters and working in the health field which is needed because you'll need the contacts for references, you'll find that there's little to no time for music.

Chris J

01-20-2007, 11:53 AM

I'm biased, as a family doctor in UK, in my thoughts about this. I am also pretty risk averse as a person, so I would always go for a career in a profession rather than the life of a musician. Of course it has never been an option for me as I am not that much of a musician!....

One thing I would say, though, is that medics are often a multi-talented bunch. I still have very close contact with med students at University now, eventhough I qualified over 20 years ago. They have huge sporting, musical, (and drinking...) talents that they can explore as a student, and as a qualified doctor. In fact I would have no hesitation to say that to have an "outside interest" is essential when undertaking the stress and strain of study and work.

So if you go to med school, you would be sure to find a whole host of others with similar interests, many with a high level of expertise, and it would be important to you now and for the future to maintain and develop your interest in music.

hgiles

01-20-2007, 01:28 PM

I say go off and be a Doctor, if it's your "life long dream." And go play bebop as often as you find it enjoyable and can find willing ears for it.

Contrary to what your ears are hearing coming out of the conservatories, the listening public likes bebop just fine.

heath

01-20-2007, 02:32 PM

So if you go to med school, you would be sure to find a whole host of others with similar interests, many with a high level of expertise, and it would be important to you now and for the future to maintain and develop your interest in music.

This is true in that many med schools look for students that have talents that make them interesting. If you're a gigging musician then that's something that will make you stand out from your peers.

Many in the academic(especially those in the math and science fields) look favorably on someone that has the work ethic and the intellect to be a jazz musician.

sjonesjrmd

01-20-2007, 11:52 PM

If you have the talent and the smarts, and you like helping people, then "doctorin" is like nothing else in the world. AND........it doesnt preclude musical endeavors. I went thru undergrad as a band and jazz ensemble player (those A's dont hurt your GPA!!) and medical school in a rock band (AV Node and the Valves of Houston, the band with the rhythm and the movement!!) and a orthopedic surgery residency playin in a Big Band, a microsurgery and hand fellowship in a band that played covers "FLASHBACK" and now am very active playing jazz in my local community (plus church and local musical theater bands etc). You have to make decisions to do what you want but Im here to tell you it can be done. And it pays better than MOST professional musicians. Just so you know............:nike:

backer

01-21-2007, 12:00 AM

Contrary to what your ears are hearing coming out of the conservatories, the listening public likes bebop just fine.

Well said!

Also, if you choose a career unrelated to music, you may want to consider finding some structure to keep you playing on a regular basis. Half an hour a day is infinitely better than letting your horn collect dust. If it becomes hard to justify with a busy schedule, consider it like a meditative routine that you need for your own mental health, or like eating a meal. Also, no plan is set in stone, so take things as they come and see what happens... you can revise your plan as you go.

This is advice that I have heeded - with the exception of a few years when I dove into a really demanding job, during which I sometimes didn't play for months at a time. I eventually corrected things, but one of the very few regrets I have is letting the horn sit in the closet while I let something very important to me begin to rot away. It is one thing to take a break for the sake of reflection and to redefine what you want to do with your music, but it is a very different thing to be lured away or give in to self-doubt, etc., and take for granted the miracle of having music be a part of your life. Ideally, I feel that the love one has for music is sacred, and pressures from the outside, musical or otherwise, should be kept at bay, taken at face value and considered carefully. At least, that's how I feel now. ;)

Neil Sharpe

01-21-2007, 05:27 AM

One more suggestion- search through the various posts by Tim Price, who has valuable insights into the practical aspects of trying to earn a living as a jazz musician. As well, threads in the past have discussed such topics as typical yearly income, booking gigs in various parts of the US, etc.

spartacus

01-21-2007, 06:53 PM

Rick Adams

01-22-2007, 11:11 AM

It might be worth taking a step back and considering your career decision in the light of an entire life plan. Perhaps you could get a big sheet of paper and brainstorm everything you want out of life in the next 2yrs, 5yrs, 10yrs, 20yrs and beyond - friendships, family, income, where you live, the home you live in, the things you do, hobbies, holidays, spiritual goals, whatever come to mind. Keep it running for about a week, adding new thoughts as they come to you, then at the end of that time, review what you've written and prioritise everything into Crucial/Important/Nice to have/Unimportant or whatever, and then see where you stand. Obviously this will only give you your current perspective and that will change over time, but it might be a damn good start. Also (and fairly obviously) talk it over with people who know you and get their perspective.

Good luck!

gary

01-22-2007, 11:37 AM

heath

01-22-2007, 01:54 PM

I think more people are interested in what this guy really wants out of life and education.

You can't be flighty when it comes to choosing a career as a musician and going to school for that intended purpose. If one has the least bit of doubt, I think honestly their wasting their time. You can't just go through the motions when it comes to performing music like you can so many other careers, at least not if you care.

I'd love to see more people living as full time musicians and making the sacrifice to live with less and lead a modest lifestyle to fulfill a dream.

speyman

01-22-2007, 03:25 PM

What ever you decide to do, pick something that you love, as you have to do it for the rest of your life.

jbucla2005

01-22-2007, 04:19 PM

Hi DocEash,

When I was around your age, I also had the dream to "go pro" and try to be the next Sonny Rollins or something. But I was also interested in health and medicine. At around 19-20 I changed my course to do medicine. Now, at 27, I still haven't succeeded in completing my medical-related education. I've actually dropped out of the program and decided to try to get a degree in music instead, if possible. All this time I've been spending most of my energy devoted to music anyway. It's where my heart was, has been, and is now, no matter how impractical is to pursue as a career, I still want to study jazz and see what happens. It's a risk I'm willing to take, despite the potential lack of work, the problems with the music scene today, etc.

If it turns out to be completely impossible and pointless for me to do music, and so far I am not an advanced student of saxophone, then I'll probably jump off a building. :D

Joking, but you get the idea.

spartacus

01-22-2007, 07:43 PM

Anyone not having the cahones to go into music full time should not use that as a background for suggesting that others would be better off also not going into music full time.

Just a thought. :hippy2:

My "cahones" had nothing to do with not choosing music as a career - a wife and eventually 5 children did. I think it takes more "cahones" to decide to make a commitment to being a medical doctor than it does to be a flute player. This is what appears on the AFM website in regards to a career in music:

FOCUS - International Musician, May 2003
by Bob Popyk

"Probably not a week goes by when someone doesn't remind me about how great things were "in the old days." Bands were constantly working, clubs of all sizes were booking musicians, and gigs were available for any musician who could play well. Nobody played for free, live music was every where, and there weren't enough musicians to go around. Well, I don't want to burst anyone's bubble, but really there was never a time when the phone just rang off the hook constantly with people looking for a single, combo, or band of any size. It didn't happen. And it's not going to happen now."

You can read the rest of the story at:
http://www.afm.org/public/musicians/articles_05-03.php

After you have read that then type in retirement benifits from the AFM in the search window. If your not a member you will not be able to access so I will paraphrase and copy the first section.

Effective in 2004
"Benefit multiplier. All benefits earned on and after Jan. 1, 2004 will be calculated at $3.50 for every $100 of contributions for pensions beginning at age 65. Benefits earned before 2004 will continue to be calculated at the $4.65 rate for pensions beginning at age 65 on or after Jan. 1, 2004."

So, your choice is either to have a day job, save money for retirement, collect SS, or rely on all of those residuals you have made during your recording career - if you were that good and that lucky to have a recording career, because your not going to get much from the AFM.

I wonder how many people in this forum make a living only from music?
I know I started out thinking I would be someone other than who I was at the moment - but was sorely disappointed when I realized there were players much better than I could ever be, who were not only out of work, but was struggling just to stay alive. Again, be a doctor but don't give up music.

jbucla2005

01-22-2007, 10:28 PM

Are you willing to die for music? Starve, slave, and suffer... for music. I'm not saying I am, but in a philosophical sense, something as deep and profound as say, the blues, is going to be around a lot longer than I am. So if I devote my whole existence to something that's not material, that doesn't necessary pay anything at all, I can sort of be "immortal." If you can get a side-job that pays well so you don't starve, then there's nothing wrong with that. But you have to decide what sacrifices you are willing and capable of making in regards to your music. If you truly love music more than medicine, then you should pursue music. The way I see it, improvising is like taking risks, right? So I think I should take a risk that I might suffer but at the same time protect something very important and it would be worth it. Many times learning music and playing with others can be so exhilarating and makes me feel so alive, I don't think I can compare anything else in life to that feeling.

I'm not trying to decide for you or push you in either way, because I'm sure our situations are unique, but I want to share what I've experienced in my 27 years here on Earth.

gary

01-23-2007, 12:02 AM

Anyone not having the cahones to go into music full time should not use that as a background for suggesting that others would be better off also not going into music full time.My "cahones" had nothing to do with not choosing music as a career -
Well there - you said it. So where's the argument? :D

I wonder how many people in this forum make a living only from music?
Just so you'll know, I do. Although I'll admit that it's getting dryer each year, for me at least, I made enough in my peak years to live (barely) off the investments until I die. At the moment my cash flow sucks, but I've got just enough of a nest egg to not starve. I've put one kid through college, one in at the moment, and a third on her way. Previously, two cars in the garages and single-family houses. (Not now, I must add.) Definitely not for the faint of heart, though, that's for sure.

heath

01-23-2007, 01:18 AM

My "cahones" had nothing to do with not choosing music as a career - a wife and eventually 5 children did. I think it takes more "cahones" to decide to make a commitment to being a medical doctor than it does to be a flute player.

This is pretty obvious that you were heading down the road to being a doctor to support your family. I'd maintain that most of the guys that are obsessive perfectionists when it comes to performing arts don't typically set themselves up with the burden of a wife and 5 children, that would certainly force you to redirect your priorities or at least choose career that makes the in-laws happy.

Although I question your comment about it taking more dedication to be a doctor than it does being a flute player. Have you ever been up front and close to a virtuoso like James Newton, it's as serious as a heart attack when it comes to being on that level and that's true for any instrument. This is part of the problem. The medical doctor gets the respect and money and in return gets to thumb their nose at everyone else.

I work in a hospital. There's a serious ego problem when it comes to 99% of the medical doctors on this planet.

Doctors get a special parking space everywhere they go in life and a status reserved for the gods. Musicians get to park two blocks down the street and haul two tons of equipment up three flights of stairs to get to the gig. You tell me which one of these guys has the "cahones"?

kavala

01-23-2007, 01:35 AM

and that saddens me......

I know I have a beautiful love of jazz but in the end, all the hardships, the not getting called, the having to scrounge around to just make enuf money for the rent, its not a life I could be happy with

That sadness would be reflected in the way I play

You're sounding a bit like 'Marvin' (Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy).

From what you have described of your life so far, I would say you should
be thinking 'my cup is half full', not 'my cup is half empty'.

decade

01-23-2007, 01:43 AM

If there is any doubt in your mind that you want to do anything except play, then maybe it wasn't meant to be.

Just make a decision and stick to it. Then in the future, you can enjoy both.

Turnaround

01-30-2007, 06:38 PM

DocEash must have gone off to be a Doctor because he hasn't posted anything since '03.

Rick Adams

01-30-2007, 06:42 PM

Indeed. I gave up on this thread when I noticed this from August '03...

In the end for my, my decision came down to how I would be most happy

I know I have a beautiful love of jazz but in the end, all the hardships, the not getting called, the having to scrounge around to just make enuf money for the rent, its not a life I could be happy with

That sadness would be reflected in the way I play

...still, it's an interesting dilemma from a purely intellectual perspective and at least we got closure :)

reedman

01-30-2007, 11:00 PM

Great discussion going on here. I too was in a similar position when i was 18. Trying to decide what to be when i grow up. I think all of us wonder at that time in our lives.
I started as a music major and in high school was all district, all-region and all state. I began to study music at a community college and then transferred to a major university. True there is alot of competition in music schools, especially on the sax, for me my journey has been fun. The music scene here is totally awesome. We really have some incredibly talented players whom I am humbled by listening to them. Granted we're home to the One O'clock lab band, but all things being equal.
I decided to change majors and continue music on the side. Best decision for me. I had to have a heart to heart with myself, and sort of an Ahh hah moment, and realize that I would probably NEVER come close to playing like Sanborn, Brecker, Tom Scott, Bill Evans, nor was I ever going to take Lenny Picketts spot on SNL, plus, i had to realize that there are alot of talented musicians on the planet with more talent than i am blessed with. So with that i changed degrees and began to carve out a path that brings me happiness and allows me to contribute to the planet, plus it also allows me to continue to play music.
I 'll second what most have already shared, follow your dreams, and if your dream is becoming a great physician, then go for it, if it is to become a great musician then go for it. Have faith in yourself, and remember it's not about the destination but the journey.
In the words of a good friend of mine:
Stay well and Play well!!!

Grumps

01-31-2007, 04:17 AM

Yes... this old thread reminds me of my father, who could have been one of the great jazz pianists of his time, but threw it all away for a career in medicine.

michaelbaird

02-16-2007, 04:52 PM

I have been an RN for 22yrs now specializing in Surgical ICU, and ER. I also play the clubs in the Nashville area in a rock-n-roll band, on weekends and when I can. Get a good career in a marketable profession and pursue music in your spare time. It is the most reliable way to keep yourself from only being able to eat Alpo when you retire. I would never pursue a music career full time unless my salary was in writing. I can get a job anywhere in the country as an RN, with minimal effort.

john

02-16-2007, 06:09 PM

spartacus

02-17-2007, 03:44 PM

For me (a practicing physician about to graduate from law school- still with career confusion) it was the realization it's way easier to make a living as an average physician or lawyer than as an average musician. Most guys on SOTW can blow circles around me on multiple instruments. But frankly- you don't have to be very good at "doctoring" or "lawyering" to make a living. Downside of medicine- fewer groupies.

As regards the "cahones discussion" (sounds like a punk band). I have little doubt that the difficulty and uncertainty associated with earning a living as a full-time musician makes musicians the brave ones. Doctors and lawyers with safe "day jobs" who work in government-sanctioned monopolies (due to the state licensing process) have little to fear economically- at least in the short term. After 25 years in medicine I can safely say that practicing medicine will guarantee all but the least competent physicians and lawyers a respectable and reliable income.

In contrast music will probably always be "iffy." I appreciate anyone who earns a few bucks with an instrument. I have respect, reverence even, for those who earn a living exclusively with an instrument and talent. It's a hard and uncertain road.

Just my $0.02.

john

For me, the cahones discussion was not about the results of an occupation, musician or doctor, but getting there. Consider that after 8 to 10 years of medical school, depending on speciality, the doctor is generally in debt $100,000 to $150,000 - that's right out of the gate. I think a student knowing that - and to make that commitment in the beginning, without knowing whether you are going graduate - takes some nerve. You still have to pay off the loans, graduated or not.
Then you are faced with malpractice insurance and the possibility of a lawsuit with every patient you touch. I know OBGYN doctors who have quit that speciality because it is no longer worth it. I also know doctors who have quit alltogether because of that stress.

Monetary wise, a musician does not have to make that kind of commitment (unless they are a saxophone player and are looking for the holy grail in mouthpieces or a vintage sax).
He or she does have to make a commitment in learning the craft of playing well enough to make a living. Next time your local symphony ork has an opening for a clarinet chair go down and count the people in line for that one spot.
Yes it does take cahones to be a full time professional musician - and the willingness to not eat or feed your family, or pay rent, etc. Bless those that make that commitment. I was not willing to make that commitment so I went out and found a job with a steady income. I played music for my own personal pleasure, because it was fun - now I do it for medical reasons to exercise my lungs and brain.
If you want to dedicate your life to playing music - and you know the consequnces of all those people in line for that one spot - then go for it. You got more cahones than me.