Senn 421

[Troy]

I finally have gotten out to a couple places to hear these mics. I've heard this one live with both sax and flute now and can tell you both instruments sound great on this mic.

There still is the issue discussed on the old board about the required proximity (you need to be close to this one), but the sound is wonderful.

Also, there was a some discussion earlier about the price. For those who are just picking up the thread, several older versions of this mic are available on ebay frequently. Also, you can get brand new ones from BSW online I think it's www.bswonline.com for about $300.

For those who argued for the EV ND468, we're getting several for our church, so I should be able to try them soon as well. They have an "ideal" range of up to 12 inches and "good" range of up to 2 feet...and are about $100 less.

[saxboy]

I think the 421 has a Crystal Element? Have to be very careful with the mic or it will break.

It sounds great on Flute and Soprano. I do not like the sound on Alto and Tenor at all. I have listed it in my rider for Flute gigs when someone else has to be responsible for it. I have never owned one due to the breaking issue; I break things that are not “breakable.”

It works great live and in studio for Flute and Sop. too.

SAXBOY

[Troy]

I think the 421 has a Crystal Element? Have to be very careful with the mic or it will break...

Thanks Saxboy! I think you just saved me a bunch of frustration/money. I hadn't seen anything about glass on any of the sites I'd visited, but just double-checked the Sennheiser site and downloaded the specs PDF.

"• Glass composite housing and hardened stainless steel basket—rugged and durable"

One of the "Features--Benefits." Unfortunately, I also am one who can break just about anything. :)

[Troy]

However...Jim sounded great on one of these playing flute last Sat. night, so if you are a gentle person, in a gentle environment...the sound was great.

[Bill Mecca]

I posted something about this in another thread. I just acquired an older EV N/D308 (predecessor of the N/D468 thanks Dale!) and in test recordings it's just fantastic. nice proximity effect, nice clean sound, and good freq response. and since it's a drum mic with a swivel head it can be "aimed" easily and the diaphragm is well insulated so it doesn't pick up noises when the mic stand is bumped etc. I even used it on the tenor with a Keen Clamp and it didnt pick up an extraneous noise from the keys popping. It was a bit heavy on my SDA.

[Anonymous]

The glass composite they're talking about is (more or less) Fibreglas!!

These mikes are as close to unbreakable as this stuff ever gets!

[jd]

ive had one for 20 years and it still works fine. been taken to plenty of gigs too. just bought another off ebay 2 years ago for 249.00 brand new. both work beautifully for tenor and alto in my opinion. i keep the new oe at home for home recording. they are great mics in my opinion. ive never had a problem with iether breaking.

[Anonymous]

Oh, and by the way, I don't think there has been a "serious" crystal mike made in the past 40 years. The were for a brief while supplanted by ceramic elements but the electret made most of these low cost solutions pretty much ludicrous---unless you play harmonica!

The Sennheiser is a very high quality Dynamic microphone!

[saxboy]

Glad so many have had good use from the 441.
I got the heads up on the glass from a singer that used it many years ago and found out the hard way (for what it's worth).
As a personal choice; I would use something I sounded great on, even with a concern for special care, if it made a difference.
I sound bad on the 441 on Alto and Tenor, like it on Soprano and love it on Flute.
I have had many mics placed in front of me thru the years by pro sound companies, and will note that it has never been a 441 for sax. They use them for overheads on Percussion/Drums, some Vocals, but never seen it for brass or woodwinds. A couple of home studios have put it out for sax for recording, and with mic placement, you can get a good sound on it, but for me, it takes moving that mic around the horn first.
I see a lot more 414's out and about.
Again, One Size does NOT fit all.
SAXBOY

[Anonymous]

I'm pretty sure we were talking about the 421 not the 441! The 441 features an expanded high end and price tag!

I still doubt that ANY current Sennheiser stage products are fragile in any way!

[saxboy]

I suck...
Getting things turned around here; You-all are talking about the 421, I was thinkin 441.
I have a 421. It is unbreakable. I don't use it for sax, but bought it for sax when I got it, and later found things I liked better. I use it for kick drum a lot?
I suck...
Sorry guys,
saxboy

[Troy]

Not at all! An easy oversight. So, I'm back in my quandry. I guess I'll just have to find a way to try one out.

Can anyone tell me how far away one can get from the 421 without the sound going in the tank? On the old board, some users said you "had to be right up on it."

Also, I'm planning on using this with a tenor...if that makes a difference.

[ferrari]

When I,ve talked about "getting right up on it in the past" , what I meant was compared to other mics I've used. If you have your monitor set up perfectly (this is really the key) then you can set the gain high enough to be easily 12 inches from the mic with your sax. In the studio it's not a problem because I use headphones.

As for durablity, I've already dropped my 421 twice on to hard floors. Still works great!

I like my Sennheiser so much for alto and tenor, that I rarely use my AKG clip-on anymore. I know that there are better mics out there, but you get a lot of bang for the buck with the 421.

[saxboy]

Saxboy here,

I took mics out this week and played 4, one of them being the 421.

I do have to say that it sounded really good on everything. The reason I was checking was the Bari sounded pretty lame on my AT clip.

I loved the Bari on the 421 and got a chance to re-think the sound on other saxes too.

I rolled highs on the 421 but have to roll highs on the Clip-on too, so big deal. The sound is really good and should be a consideration of any sax player looking for live mic applications. It seems to work well on all saxes, don’t play doubles the night I brought them all out.

My only other thought is; I feel like I am stuck with a Stand. I need to bring this mic out for BARI, but would continue clip-on mics for performance and entertainment issues. I can’t just stand there and I really love doing Drum/Sax breaks and getting right on the drummer, or getting over by Guitarists for trades and blowing sections. Not really possible with a stand.

But, for the record; the 421 went in the Bari case and was the best sounding mic I own by far for the BIG SAX (and sounded great on everything else). I really can’t dance around much with that puppy around my neck…

SAXBOY

[Giganova]

saxboy -- what were the other three mics you've checked out? Wanna share your opinion and how they A/B?

How do you think the 421 and 441 compare? Would anyone recommend the 441 for tenor sax recording?

[Ptrick]

Well Troy,
For live performance situations it is hard to beat Sennheiser (421 OR 441). They are rugged, dynamic, directional, high performance for low cost and have good resale value! And you don't have to worry about powering them like some condenser mics. They do require some extra gain at the mixer, but that is the easy part.

Now if you are wanting a good recording mic that's a different bird... I like the TLM-103 (after having tried EVERYTHING - including making some of my own...)

To get a good recording position live or studio is variable but some generalizations can make your life easier:
1) keep the mic out of the bell - back off about 1-2 feet
2) Keep the height about "sax neck" level pointing a bit down toward the G key

[saxboy]

I have a few mics I tried that night. I have a Shure Beta 57, Shure 58, 2 Audio Technicas, not sure on models but one is a cheaper mic I bought just for announcing with an on off switch and the other is comparable to the 58. Also use the AT Clip-35 as mentioned above.
The 421 kicked my mics pretty hard, but I don't have a lot of mics and no high end stuff. I still use the AT Clip for most live stuff.
In the studio; I wish I had a few cool mics at home to mess with but have not dropped that coin yet. I have tracked using Sonar with the mic modeler in Sound Forge and been real happy with those results. Used the Beta 57 and modeled the U87 and others but liked that combo.

Bottom line is there are so many great mics available at every price range and job description that it is more fun than work checking them all out.

I have a wish list that is researched often. I will be getting an Audio Technica AE5100 soon. I can get my AT from them and I liked that mic a lot at NAMM. I love the sound on my buddies Peavey Tube Mic and really want a high end tube to have and to hold. Like the Blue Mics – Dragon Fly too. Really want to try AT’s new 5060? Tube but can’t get one in my hands.

Mics are beautiful things...
SAXBOY
www.gregvail.com

[Giganova]

I would think that the 441 is a notch better than the 421. Some of the best dynamic mics ever built. I recently got one off Ebay for $210.- and I absolutly love it! I can hardly hear any difference between the Neumann KM184 and the 441 in the studio when recording my tenor simultaneously and listening to the tracks "blindly" later. Its also quite an ugly monster and looks cool ;-)

[White Willie]

I have been using a 441 for about 20 years now. I would easily choose it over a 421 for sax because the pickup is hypercardoid; it has a very definite narrow angle of pickup, and when I use a lot of effects such as echo and chorus, I do not pick up drums, guitars amps, etc. On the other hand, the 421 has a very wide angle, and it picks up everything!

As far a durability, mine has been dropped a few times, even on concrete. Last year I sent it to Sennheiser for a total refurbishment (though absolutely NOTHING was wrong with it), and the complete overhaul only cost about $80.00. They even sent a new sound curve graph, and it was as flat as the original one. I do not keep it in any special case, and I do not take extra care with it. It just keeps going and going.

One thing I do like about it is that it has no proximity effect. I have played through mics that do and I hate it. I play soprano, alto, tenor, and flute, and I can get right on the mic with my flute with no tonal shift, or back away with the alto or tenor through really loud solos, and the tone stays consistent. On soft ballads on the tenor, I get right in the mic for a lush, airy sound, and it does it all. Also, you can set tone settings on the mic itself, with 10 different choices.

The Sennheiser is not my best mic, but it is definitely my most used one, and the fact that it requires no phantom power means I can use it with any group I play with. I don't think you can get a better non-powered mic anywhere at any cost. My powered studio mic could never handle the abuse my 441 goes through. I've been playing over 40 years professionally, and I have NEVER found a better one. The cost difference between it and the 421, in my opinion, is easily worth it.

BTW, the 421 is a GREAT kick drum mic.

[Troy]

All that praise and it's not your best mic. :) What one is?

[White Willie]

In reply, my best mic is an AKG C414BULS, but it is a powered mic, and every PA system doesn't have phantom power. I know I can use an in-line powering device (which I have), but then again a mediocore PA isn't going to be able to produce enough difference to bother. The AKG is generally used only in studios. I just don't trust it to be durable enough for constant road work. I use it only for studio work, or on really special jobs.

[Lotus54]

I have tried a number of mics for saxophone, here is what I've found.
I don't like the Sure 58 or Beta 58s at all. Too 'tinny' sounding for me.
I liked what I heard with the Senn 421, and bought one. Sounded really good.
Then I saw a large diaphram condensor for sale from Pacific Pro Audio, 30 day MBG. So I bought it to compare.

Side by side, the LD-1 sounded way better, and only cost $100!
So I sold the 421 and bought two of the LD-1s

I also tried thier LD-Tube. A bit brighter thant he LD-1, what I really like best is one tube and one LD-1 on the tenor. Seems to get the best of both!

Pacificproaudio.com

I have a recording using the LD-1 on my website. Actually to comparet he Ref 36 to the MK VI, but you can hear what they sound like (at least with me playing).

http://www.olympus.net/personal/markh/

I don't think my playing was that great on the comparo, but you can hear it anyway.

Mark