Good Colleges for Jazz Studies/Performance

[Saxydude]

Hello everyone. It's that time in my life to start thinking about college. I'm interested in learning about colleges with good jazz programs. I'm interested in jazz studies/performance (for sax, of course.) I'm posting this question more to the people who know of smaller name colleges that still have great jazz departments. I've investigated most of the well-known jazz schools (U of T, Berklee, etc.) but I know there are more out there that I'm overlooking. Here is a list of the some of the colleges I've investigated:

Ithaca College
Northwestern U.
Shenandoah University
Youngstown State University (in Ohio.)
Berklee

If anyone can add to my list please do. Also, please share personal experiences with college (if you can remember any!) I know many of you will give the "not everyone makes it as a professional, you should have a back-up" speech, and for everyone out there, I DO have a back-up. My plan is to earn my Bachelors in Jazz Studies and then go on to trade school and become certified as an instrument repair tech. Anyway, please throw out more colleges with good jazz programs that I can investigate. Thanks.

[gary]

Check out the thread on North Texas for a good list of some of the top jazz schools.

[Razzy]

Oddly enough that thread leaves out one of the lesser-known but one of the best jazz schools in the world: University of the Arts, Philadelphia, PA. And that comes from experience working with the faculty and the school's summer and weekend programs.

[beth]

and for a cheaper route....

SUNY Purchase is a good performance/jazz school, dont know a whole lot about it, but some good jazzers i know in my area have gone there or atleast looked into it
SUNY Potsdam as well. strong sax studio (mcallister is professor right now...dont know how long he'll be there for though - but he's not going to get a crappy replacement...). jazz studies minor (dont know if you'd want that though)...if you want more info, just ask...

[Andres]

University of Maryland - College Park has (had?) a good program. Chris Vadala runs the jazz program there.

Don't forget the University of Miami.

[Riff]

Eastman School of Music
Manhatten School of Music
U. of Miami

[Paul Latanishen]

Could you tell us a bit more about what you are looking for and regionally, if you have any preference? Considering what you've given us...I'd put out a second for UMD with THE MAN Chris Vadala. Its also nice to have Dale Underwood around if you are a sax player...

[Saxydude]

Paul- You're correct----I was a bit fague in my initial post.

Regionally: I would like to stay east of the Mississippi River. However, the main area I've been looking has been the east coast and new england area. I also have looked in Chicago. I'm not too picky about what region I'm in.

What I want in a school: I'm not asking to go to Juilliard. I want a school where I can mature as a musician. Audition requirements should be difficult but not ridiculous. I'm not intending on going pro (however it would be nice) but I do want to become a better (very good) jazz artist. My #1 choice is currently Northwestern U. (I don't know if I have the grades to get in though). Basically, I'm looking for a good school that doesn't have to be popular or well known.

Any more suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[JS]

It really all depends on where you want to be - in my experience, where you go to school will set up your contacts, thus you'll be setting up work for yourself in the future. Someone else already beat me to suggesting the University of the Arts in Philadelphia - that's a great program. I did my undergrad there, and I'm extremely thankful for the training that I received there. I would also suggest William Paterson University in Wayne, NJ - it's a tough program to get into, but it's very challenging, and the faculty are top-notch (I did my master's there).
Good luck...

JS

www.jimsaltzman.com

[Nefertiti]

Saxydude,
I went to Ithaca College for 2 years then transfered to Berklee. Ithaca had a great all round music program. Amazing classical teacher(Steve Mauk) and great for an Education degree. Steve Brown leads the jazz program. While he is very good and a great teacher I felt I needed to be surrounded by different kinds of teachers and more burning students. Ithaca is great if you're at a stage where you really need to learn and shed the fundamentals of jazz and improv. I visited Berklee during a summer to check it out. I saw Jerry Bergonzi and George Garzone play my first week and my mind was made up. I transfered even though my Dad was very mad because I lost 40 credits in the transfer. I didn't care. I needed to be here for the stimulation I've never regretted it. I was at Berklee during 87-88. Check out the students who were there around the time that I was. Seamus Blake,Donny McCaslin,Warren Hill, Mark Turner, Mark Johnson,Antonio Hart,Roy Hargrove,Danilo Perez,Geoff Keezer,......and that's just those off the top of my head. Being around other burning musicians stimulates and teaches you as much or more as being with a great teacher. The other question is whether you want to be a big fish in a small pond or a small fish in a big pond. The music has always been my drive. I didn't really care if I wasn't the best sax player in town. I was learning and growing and loving the music. Some guys do better in a smaller situation where their the main cat and they can build a name for themselves. It's up to you. Hard choices.I'm glad I don't have to make them again. Good Luck.

[shortwhite]

Razzy,

Have you had a chance to check out Rick Lawn, Dean of Performing Arts at
University of the Arts? Great sax player and composer. He took the job last fall. We played together a lot for the past 15 years.

[Razzy]

Is he involved with the jazz studies program? I thought Marc Dicciani was the dean of that program?

[shortwhite]

Razzy,

I don't think Rick is doing any teaching at this time, just being a Dean. Not gigging much, by choice. Wants to concentrate on doing a good job as Dean. He was head of Jazz Studies at University of Texas prior to this job.

[Cameron Wigmore]

You mentioned U ofT in Toronto, but York Univ. and especially Humber College are good schools. Check them out. Take a trip to Toronto and you'll see the scene is amazing, and Canadian jazz is intense!

[Saxydude]

Wow, thanks for the re-surge in posts. I thought my thread was all but dead. Right now I'm really gunning for Northwestern. I've visted the campus and love the people there. I also just got some good news in the mail yesterday---I was accepted to play in Ohio's All State Jazz Ensemble as 2nd tenor. Hopefully I'll be able to repeat this next year when I'm a senior. Thanks for all your help.

[Kenfen]

I was at Berklee from 88-90 and I went there just as Nefertiti did. To be around burning players and students. I studied with masters of the instrument, heard masters of the instrument, drank coffee with masters.... It was a great time.

Surround yourself with the best and you'll only get better.

[steve]

Northern Illinois University......30,000 students....50 miles west of Chicago. Their music department has an excellent reputation...and Chicago is close enough to do some in-depth music research.

[MartyG]

A different reply:

Don't do it.
Or better, don't do it unless you have to. Making it is a Jazz musician is tougher than making the NBA.

I am a Berklee grad and absolutely loved it, but I am also a very practical guy too.

Music is a great hobby, but in these days of DJs and computer music, Jazz is a tough sell.

Sorry to be so negative but I am also a realist. My students ask methe same question often. The reply is the same.

Sorry,

-MG

[ASaxUMD]

Two good schools not mentioned (unless I over looked which is possiable)

Rowen, New Jersey: Denis DiBlasio sax instructor (great jazz faculty)

University of Maryland: Chris Vadala sax instructor and band leader


Another thing to possiably think about: as a jazz major you are going to be a giging performer. So keep in mind a school with access to a Jazz scene where you will be able to get out and play.

[OnyxSax]

I'd second U of MD. I was there at the very end of the George Ross era. Coincidentally, I was studying with Chris Vadala at the same time.

I do know there are a LOT of saxophone players who come out for U of MD because of Chris Vadala, so the competition to get in is quite fierce. However, if you play trombone, I've heard you will have a much easier time getting into the Jazz Bands. Is that still true?

[sd7915]

I have to throw in something for Indiana University. Dr. Walsh is definitely a hip cat. David Baker is the head of the department.

SaxyDude, congrats on making the all state jazz ensemble. I got a chance to listen to last years CD and was blown away. Their lead alto last year (Chris Herald?) had some serious chops. I used to live in Brunswick. Where are you from?

[Saxydude]

sd7915- I'm in Sandusky. I'm actually the first person from my school (and other area public schools) to win a spot in the all-state jazz ensemble. I'm a little disappointed in myself that I'm 2nd tenor....it's ironic how when I auditioned in May 2003 my sound concept and idea's are completely different to right now Jan. 2004. I certainly feel that I'm a better player than I was 9 months ago, and I hope to keep improving at such a rate. I'm incredibly excited about playing with a such an awesome group of guys. Also, I will check out University of Indiana (that's a new recommendation). Thanks for all the posts everyone, I greatly appreciated it.

[sd7915]

Saxydude, I definitely would not be disappointed with second chair if they are at the same level this year as last. Congrats again and good luck.

[ShadowSlicers]

Jazz...well Howard University has a good program, not the school for everybody though. 8)

[DuquesneSax85]

I would definitly consider the University of Maryland CP.... I have studied with Chris Vadala and he is an amazing saxophone player and really down-to-earth kind of guy. The competition is also very fierce at U of M... but if you can read and play with the big boys, then you have a good shot at the program. Plus, the University of Maryland has a brand spankin new performing arts center (it's amazing)!!! Another great jazz school that a student often overlooks is Duquense University in Pittsburgh.... Mike Tomaro is the director of jazz studies at Duquesne. He played saxophone in the Army Blues for many years. He is an amazing player. Duquesne is also hiring Sean Jones full time next year as assistant director of jazz studies. Sean is an absolute amazing trumpet player. He lives in New York city and does most of the trumpet gigs there, so you can imagine how well he plays.... Good luck in your search... I discourage going to North Texas because every player I heard come out of North Texas plays the exact same style... Boring! Berklee is too expensive as well... You can get the same kind of jazz education at a smaller school... Remember, keep an open mind and choose the school that suits you best!

[Saxydude]

Duquesne- Thanks for the info. U of M is one place (to be honest) I haven't considered much. However, everyone I've spoken to says to definately look at it....so I'm doing some research right now. I'm still really praying for Northwestern (I had a campus tour and got to meet a lot of faculty and they're all wonderful), but I am trying my best to keep an open mind. My list is up to 5 colleges to audition at in the Fall (maybe 6 after i learn more about U of M), and I honestly can't WAIT! Thanks for all your help, everyone!

[JazzSax985]

I am also thinking about college jazz programs. 2 schools I am strongly considering are Suny Purchase and New York University. If anybody knows anything or has had any experiences with either of these schools your input would be greatly appreciated.

By the way I am new to this forum and I look forward to interesting conversations with everyone.

-Andrew

[Walnuts]

A different reply:

Don't do it.
Or better, don't do it unless you have to. Making it is a Jazz musician is tougher than making the NBA.

I am a Berklee grad and absolutely loved it, but I am also a very practical guy too.

Music is a great hobby, but in these days of DJs and computer music, Jazz is a tough sell.

Sorry to be so negative but I am also a realist. My students ask methe same question often. The reply is the same.

Sorry,

-MG

The truth is tough. One can always major in something else in college, and play in the college's bands for the fun of it.

My recommendations are UC Davis and UCLA.

[gary]

"Music is a great hobby, but in these days of DJs and computer music, Jazz is a tough sell. "
and:
"The truth is tough. One can always major in something else in college, and play in the college's bands for the fun of it."

My first private music teacher said he'd teach me on one condition; that I'd "play music as a hobby and never as a profession".

A decade later, out of pure coincidence (cause it was also in two different countries!) he turned out to be the guy auditioning me to go into an Air Force band (draft dodger that I was) and when he saw me the first words out of his mouth were "You didn't remember what I said to you did you!"

Well, almost (gad) four more decades later I'm still a professional musician. If that's what you want to do, DO IT!

[Saxydude]

Gary- THANK YOU! I am tired of people saying "If music is what you love, then don't make a profession out of it." I've heard it all before 10 million times. My mind is made up....I'm a musician and I'm going to college to be trained to become a better one. I am aware that there aren't many professional jazz musicians.....I KNOW. Thank you to everyone who has supported my decision to be a music major.

[Ronin1]

Have you considered the Jazz Studies Program at the University of Michigan? You could then also study with Don Sinta, as well as with all the great profs led by Ed Sarath in the Jazz studies Dept. :D

[Rex]

SaxyDude --

You say you don't want to go Pro, but that's what you'll be for 4 years or more when you make it to one of these fine schools -- it's a total-immersion experience. You'll be putting everything you've got into it, and for what? That WITH the repair tech. training might make you a top-flight repair tech. in the end, but is that what you want, or is repair tech. your backup, as you suggest? Repair techs. are starving, too (check out the appropriate threads hear under Maintenance and Repair)! You COULD just play and learn while in school (the same courses and teachers could be avail. to you, even if not a performance, or even a music major), and go to a school that has a repair tech. program? There is another market for musicians that's still not great, but not totally barren (yet -- but supply is still much greater than demand) -- Music Education!? Think about it -- you work, get paid, play the horn all day if you want to, play gigs when you can -- what's not to like? Teaching, however, requires its own set of talents, and it's easy to see why it's not everyone's cup of tea...

[Saxydude]

Well, I just got home from All-State Jazz Band. Wow, what an experience! I've never played my horn so much over the course of 2 days in my life!! I think the lead alto player and I figured it out to be 18 hours of solid playing over a 48 hour period. Everyone was great....I've never played with such a swinging band in my life. My band director (also my sax teacher) got a chance to hear the Youngstown State jazz band at the OMEA convention. He said it was one of the greatest bands he's heard, and this is coming from a guy who was lead alto at Bowling Green in the 70's.

sd7915- Chris Herald was the lead alto again this year (not surprising, he's amazing). We actually roomed together and I got a chance to really get to know him----really nice guy. It's interesting to hear so many different jazz styles come together in a band like this. I think Chris and are a huge contrast.......you have the blazing technique and excellent facility (Chris), and then you have me.....little slower, more rests, more deliberate, I suppose. Overall, it was a WONDERFUL experience and I hope I can repeat it next year (as lead tenor this time).

[jasendorf]

As a graduate of Bowling Green State University, I'd have to throw Bowling Green into the mix. The Jazz Studies program is tops with Jeff Halsey running the program. The problem for sax layers though is that John Sampen is the sax professor. Don't get me wrong, Dr. Sampen is an incredible saxophonist and an incredible teacher... I learned more about the saxophone from him than most of my teachers combined. But, he's not a jazzer, he's a new music guy (his wife is the excellent new music composer Marilyn Shrude).

The three sax guys in the Jazz Studies program while I was there (back in the early 90's) worked out an agreement with the University to study with Gene Parker (awesome saxophonists out of Toledo) but we also had to continue studying with Sampen... the work load was formadible, but manageable if you were extremely focused.

In my book, sax players should learn jazz not from other sax players but from piano and bass players... they think chordally... too many sax teachers don't.

John

[Saxydude]

Jasendorf- Thanks for the reply. I think I may have mentioned in some of my other posts, but my current sax instructor got his Bachelors from BG and then got his Masters from Florida State.....he's incredible. I recently had the opportunity to work with Gene Parker. . .my sax teacher (who is also our HS jazz band director) got him to come in and be a special guest soloist/clinician....he's got some chops. Last year I had the pleasure of working with another Toledo jazz legend....Jimmy Cook (can't say enough about how amazing this guy is!). To be honest with you, I don't know why I haven't really looked into BG more than I have. Perhaps it's because at my highschool BG is the university that "everyone" goes to go, and I didn't want to be like that....however if their program is that nice, I guess I'm stupid for not checking it out.

I'd like to pose another question to everyone. Many major colleges require 4 varied pieces for a classical sax audition. Of the pieces listed below, which 4 would you choose to play for an audition?

1. Eccles Sonata: 1st or 2nd movement
2. Bozza Etude #8: still needs some woodshedding, but definately a possibility
3. Creston Concerto: 2nd movement. <-------this piece is almost a certainty in any of my auditions
4. Couf's "Introduction, Dance, and Furioso": Intro. and Dance only.
5. Ferling Etude #18: why not?
6. DiPasquale TENOR Sonata: 2nd or 3rd movement. This would, of course, be played on tenor. <-----one of my favorites.

I'm asking for a list of 4 of the above compositions. Please note that a single movement counts as 1 of the 4 pieces. Please save your responses that go something like "play what you like" or "play what you can to the best of your ability." I'm asking for input. All of these pieces can be done equally as well. Any and all thoughts will be appreciated. Thanks!

[jasendorf]

Gene is an incredible saxophonist... did he teach you his scale and arpeggio workout? You'd know if he had.

I was originally from Toledo, practically grew up in Rusty's (it was only a couple blocks from my house). The first time I layed with Gene was at a concert where I got the Toledo Jazz Society's book schoolarship. Played Mr. P.C. with an all-star "adult" jazz group... I felt foolish playing with those guys but it was an experience I'll never forget.

One thing to remember... a Jazz Studies degree is all about performance. And, performance is all about practice. You can go to a school which would be more expensive (out of state or private), but if it forces you to get a job delivering pizzas just so you can afford to go there... your practice time takes a big hit. Bowling Green's staff is awesome, but the program doesn't play around.

[BATMAN]

A plug for Michigan State University. I truly believe we have one of the best jazz bands in the country, and it's been a privilege to be part of that. Come here if you want to 'swang'

Another nice thing about MSU is Rodney Whitaker. This cat knows everybody, and vice-versa!

:)

But it really doesn't matter where you go. What you get out of a program is what you put into it. If you put a lot, you will get a lot, and if you don't work, then it will show.

I suggest you pick a school that has a good environment in addition to good faculty. Part of learning jazz is the hanging out, listening to records, shedding with friends, jamming, etc.. etc...

[Saxydude]

BATMAN- Please e-mail me privately regarding Michigan State. My e-mail address is Saxydude05@yahoo.com. Thanks.

[BATMAN]

Saxydude - sent you an email. Sorry about the late reply.

[HeavyWeather77]

At the risk of becoming unpopular in this forum...

As far as North Texas goes, I'd say don't knock it 'til you've tried it. The sax prof (Jim Riggs, a Toledo native) is a fantastic teacher with a treasure trove of information. The lab bands offer great experience, but what's most beneficial is, like the Berklee alumni have pointed out, immersing yourself in an environment of some of the best jazz musicians around. If many North Texas alumni "sound the same," it may be because they're musicians of mediocre talent who received such stellar jazz education that they've managed to get heard anyway. The really GREAT NT alumni are some of the best musicians anywhere-- listen to Ari Hoenig or Earl Harvin if you're into drums, or Shelley Carrol, Dave Pietro, Dave Lown, or Rob Wilkerson if you're into sax: these guys are all musicians who play beautiful stuff, and don't sound a thing like each other. Tim Miller for guitar, Marc Johnson for bass, etc.

By the way I'm not just defending my school, I'm also encouraging Saxydude to give it a look. I'm planning to go to Eastman or Miami for grad school, but my experience at NT has been priceless. If you get a scholarship it's inexpensive, the repair program is good, and trust me, if you stick around here a few years, you will get better than you thought possible.

Good luck.
BD

[Saxydude]

Ok Ok....I'm giving in. Against my instinct I'm heavily investigating the jazz program at UNT. Also, I'm checking out the jazz program at Univesity of Miami (Florida). Does anyone have experience with the jazz program at Miami? If I remember correctly...wasn't Shazzo a student at Miami?....Maybe he'll chime in. Any thoughts on these schools will be appreciated.
HeavyWeather- Do you mind giving me you e-mail address so we could talk privately about UNT? I believe my e-mail is in one of the above posts. Please drop me a line. Thanks for all your help everyone. Time for some serious shedding this summer!....I can hardly wait!

[Saxaholic]

I can't believe Temple University has not been mentioned. Cheap, and absolutely amazing education. The jazz band there is out of this world, and it is extremely competitive.

Terrell Stafford is a professor there, for you trumpet buffs. I've worked under him before and he's a great teacher. I know several students attending Temple and they are turning into truly knowledgable players with great talents.

Currently they have a lead trumpet player (freshman) who can hit notes higher than Stafford can....

Bill Cosby presented Jackie McClean's Mark VI to the freshman lead alto player...as a gift, free.

They have a CD out. I'd definitely recommend picking it up and giving a listen. The area would be interesting, but as a jazz setting, I think its perfect.

Saxaholic

[gary]

...like the Berklee alumni have pointed out, immersing yourself in an environment of some of the best jazz musicians around.
Amen to that! And others can pull you up if you're willing to work. Here were some of my classmates. Not just contemporaries but actual classmates: Billy Harper, Lou Marini, Ed Soph, Bill Stapleton, Dan Haerle, Ray Sasaki, Roul Jerome, Fischer Tull, Marius Nordhal and the list goes on.

I never felt that it was "cut throat" but rather that the standards were very high and you could either sink or swim. Being around those folks was very stimulating and really got your creative juices flowing.

Obviously from the list that was some time back and times change, but my point is this: I'm good at what I do but I am definitely not in the same league as those classmate I've listed above. I firmly believe that being around such colleagues for four+ years was a major factor in my being able to make a living full-time as a musician for over thirty years. You learn a lot more than just music.

Regardless of the location, seek a school program that has monster students, and a lot of them. Be willing to be humbled by the experience...but not for long. Hang in there and you will definitely fulfill your potential, whatever that may be.

[saxdad1958]

Anyone have any thoughts on Belmont University in Nashville for their Commercial Music (not just Jazz) program and the studio/music industry connections in Nashville? Also, does anyone have any thoughts on William Patterson University in NJ? The reality is that jazz is less than 4% of all music sales so you really can't make a living doing only jazz. Thoughts? Boy, I hope I didn't just open a huge can of worms....

[JS]

saxdad1958,
I did my master's degree in jazz at William Paterson - it's a great program, and it's a heart-beat away from NYC. It's a tough, competitive program though - they only accept the number of students that graduate on that instrument (the emphasis is on small group/improvisation) - so if four undergrad sax majors graduate, they only offer admission to four.
The saxophone teachers are Dave Demsey, Don Braden, and Gary Smulyan.
Feel free to email me for more info...

[saxophobe]

I'm with HeavyWeather77 and gary, as I too am a UNT alum. I consider my education there to be on par with any mentioned in the board. The faculty was fantastic, and I also consider studying with Dan Haerle to be one of the best educational experiences of my life. Also, just the time spent hanging out with and playing sessions from students from all over the world was great.

Anybody who thinks all UNT grads sound the same really hasn't taken the time to listen to a representative sample. I believe this can be said of any program.

[greenjambone]

William Paterson University of NJ has one of them best programs in the nation. Saxes study with Rich Perry and Don Braden. Trombones with John Mosca. Piano with Mulgrew Miller, Armen Donelian, and Harold Maybern. Percussionists/cibes Kevin Norton. etc... look into it!

[SaxJazz12]

If you want an excellent program, but don't want to spend a lot of money on school--San Diego State University is a great place to study.

We have a strong jazz department in both ensembles and courses. We have 3 full time jazz faculty members. Bill Yeager is in charge of the 2 Big Bands, teaches jazz trombone, and is the department chair. Rick Helzer is in charge of the jazz theory/arranging component, directs 2 combos, and teaches most of the jazz piano majors. Richard Thompson directs combos, teaches the jazz history classes for jazz majors, and teaches jazz piano students (as well as harmony/transcription to horn players). All 3 are extremely knowledgable and friendly.

Our jazz studio faculty includes John Rekevics (woodwinds), Bob Boss (guitar), Bob Magnusson (bass), Mike Holguin (drums), and Gilbert Castellanos (trumpet).

The department is relatively small when compared to schools like Berklee, University of Miami, etc. But, I think the level of instruction (and players) is superb. Additionally, there are a lot of great players in the San Diego area to jam with and study from.

San Diego State has a reputation as being a huge party school--and it's hard to argue against that. It is also very easy to get distracted with the beautiful weather, beaches, etc...But, I would say that most of the jazz majors are pretty focused on their goals.

The department has a website...

jazz.sdsu.edu

[Agemusic]

All those programs are great ones to be sure. One more to consider is Oberlin College. Wendell Logan who is the department head is one of the most creative and soulful musicians one would ever want to meet and learn from. They have a great sort of off the beaten path kind of program that will undoubtedly help you to develop your own voice. They have had Gary Bartz listed as their jazz sax teacher and Paul Cohen has been doing the classical sax studio. If you are considering Northwestern, take a look at Oberlin.

[namenotfound06]

William Paterson University of NJ has one of them best programs in the nation. Saxes study with Rich Perry and Don Braden. Trombones with John Mosca. Piano with Mulgrew Miller, Armen Donelian, and Harold Maybern. Percussionists/cibes Kevin Norton. etc... look into it!
Your right for part of it. Saxes study with either Rich Perry or Vincent Herring and piano students study with either James Wiedman, Armen Donelian, and Harold Maybern. I dont know if Mulgrew is teaching private lessons. BTW I'm going there at the moment and the program is a very humbling experience. It's competetive but in a creative and fun way.