5 years experince, 0 years tounging

[chaotic42]

Hey all.

I recently (Tuesday) picked up alto sax after about 4 years of downtime. The thing is, I never learned to tounge. I don't know why. I did very well, I was first chair in band, got a school award, but I never learned to tounge.

Every time I tried it, I just couldn't do it. Now that I'm starting over, I'd like to learn to do it correctly from the beginning. I think it'll make playing easier down the road.

I've tried various things, but I can't get it to work right. Any painstakingly detail explinations for me?

Thanks a million!

[MS]

If you can get a copy of the Larry Teal "Art of Saxophone Playing" you will find suggestions as to how most players will tongue. That is a good place to start. Some private lessons with a GOOD private teacher will save you time and money in the long run.

It's hard to tell what's going on inside your mouth. Some people can sense what the tongue is doing, some can't. Matching the sound of the attack with a good player/teacher can be of help to some. It can be as simple or as complicated as your understanding of how you can determine useful feedback to what you are doing.

If you are doing this on your own, I can suggest a couple of things for you to try. May not work for you if you don't have someone helping to observe.
My suggestion is to touch whatever part of the tongue that will touch the tip of the reed. If you have a large tongue and/or a small oral cavity, YOU WILL NOT be able to comfortably touch the tipe of the tongue to the tip of the reed. Many saxopohone players "anchor-tongue", meaning that what ever part of the tongue (on top from the tip back to about 1/2 inch) will touch the tip of the reed is used.

Things to try:
1) dip the tip of an old reed in dark food coloring and put on your mps.
2) start a note. Let your tongue reach up and touch the TIP of the reed a couple of times. Immediately look in a mirror and see if any part of you tongue show food coloring.

OR: Start a note with just air (while looking into a mirror). Reach up with which ever part of your tongue is closest and stop the reed vibration with your tongue, touching only the tip of the reed.. Leave your tongue on the reed, open your mouth (still looking into the mirror) and see what results you have.

If either of these work for you, try to committ the feeling to muscle memory, and try duplicationg the feeling for several days in a row. Practice using your tongue daily on simple songs that you know from memory, probably in the middle range of your saxophone where most notes work easily.

Important: I would suggest you overuse steady air stream while learning this. At first don't attempt to stop notes with your tongue. Just begin notes (legato tongue). Do several in a row on one breath (too much air would be better than not enough for a while). You can then learn to finesse how your tongue can stop notes later.

This may take some time or may "click in " immediately. We all do things slightly differently. I would recommend you do this at the first part of your practice period so you can sucessfully ingran a new habit into your playing routine. Best wishes, good luck, and have fun! :D

[Razzy]

I played about five years without really knowing how to tongue either. The best and most clearly conveyed explanation I've ever received:

"Say TAH on the reed. TAH TAH TAH."

I just did that, and it worked.

[Gordon (NZ)]

I initially had many problems because of trying to follow directions to touch 'tip' of the tongue against the "tip of the reed". All I got was a buzzed tongue. I took 'tip' of the tongue to mean the very end (which faces forwards), and tip of the reed to mean the very end, that is sharp. Tip to tip could only be achieved with the tongue moving forward and back. so the word 'tip' is somewhat ambiguous.

Then I caught on...

At the END of a tongued note:

Use the UPPER side of the tongue, NEAR its tip, to press the UNDERSIDE of the reed, NEAR the end of the red, UPWARDS towards the mouthpiece, hence fully (or partially for special-effect partial tonguing) closing the gap between the reed and mouthpiece, and stopping the flow of air. The tongue movement is done fast so that the tongue does not get over-'buzzed' by the vibrating reed.

At the beginning of a tongued note, lower the end of the tongue again from the reed, to allow the reed to vibrate, and allow the air to pass between it and the mouthpiece.

All this time, air pressure should be maintained within the mouth, the same as if the notes were being slurred.

[singlereed]

As a general rule, don't say 'tah', say 'dah' or 'doo' - both of these are a lot faster and better sounding. There are many tonguing actions that all give different effects, but my playing was reveloutionised by adopting 'd' rather than 't' and I am convinced it is the best place to start.

[Gordon (NZ)]

I realise that dialects are different, but to me, the only difference between 'tah' & 'dah', is that for the latter, I start my vocal chords going the instant aid starts flowing, whereas for the former some air passes before the vocal chords are brought into play.

The vocal chords have nothing to do with sax playing, so I do not understand the difference between the two. Can anybody explain?

[singlereed]

The tongue touches the reed at a different point depending on the 'sound' that the tongue would be making. The other actions you can use to start a note also have different characters - 'L', 'N', 'G', 'K' etc. Somewhere I have some notes on all this which I'll pull out.

[sax rookie]

My question (or concern) is how could a student make it first chair and win awards without knowing the fundamentals of tounging? This is not a reflection on you Chaotic, but more on your instructors.

[Nefertiti]

I was always taught tah. Dah seems to make the back of my tongue lower in position. I'm not saying this is wrong but what is the best I wonder. Do you want the back of your tongue in a higher position or lower. I know on clarinet I do much better with the back of my tongue slightly higher.

[Razzy]

You'll find that Nah, tah, dah, and lah can all be said with the same exact action of the tongue. Lah just leaves space on the sides, which really makes no difference in sax playing. The difference is in the air and how it is released. So it's really irrelevant which you start with; just that you learn to eventually divorce the advanced concept of releasing the reed from the mouthpiece, from the beginner concept of using a consonant sound.

[singlereed]

Try 'Dah' - works for me and plenty of others. If it doesn't help you, it hasn't cost anything.

[chaotic42]

My question (or concern) is how could a student make it first chair and win awards without knowing the fundamentals of tounging? This is not a reflection on you Chaotic, but more on your instructors.

I just learned breath control. I was good at faking it.