Focus on one horn - do you need to?

[Christian W]

Not sure if this is in the right place, but I couldn't see anywhere to put it. Please move it if it needs to be somewhere else.

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Focus on one horn - do you need to?

What I mean is, do you think that to get "a sound" on a particular type of sax (SATB) you need to spend years just playing that one horn. Of course, this all comes down to the amount of practice time etc, but even if you had all day to practice 24/7, do you think that you would still need to focus on one horn for a certain period of time to develop "a sound" on that type.

I know there are a lot of people out there who play SATB simultaneously, but then again, it seems a lot of people also play only ST or AB, or AT or any combination of two. I have very rarely heard people play who have a killer sound on more than two types of horn. Sure, you can play SATB, but I am talking about that killer sound.

what do you think?

I own SATB, but I find that I only have time to focus on Alto to really develop a unique sound. My STB are just sitting there at the moment frowning at me!

[Razzy]

I get what I'd call a "killer" sound, by my standards, on alto, tenor, and soprano. I haven't played bari sax in about 6 months, so it makes sense that my sound is not "killer", but it is definitely very close to the quality of the others.

My problem with soprano and bari for a while was that I did not get good equipment for them until a long time after I began playing them. For tenor and alto I have had great equipment for about a year now, and this is reflected in the sound. I have adapted to this equipment and can work with it very well. For soprano, I have had a new mouthpiece only for a few days, and for bari, I still don't have what I'd call decent equipment. However I did have loner mouthpiece and ligature on the bari sax for a while, and tell you what, I was getting a very fine killer sound on that bari sax when I had the good stuff on loan from a friend!

I find that the biggest problem is not the quality of sound but the familiarity with the instrument and the way it feels in the mouth, under the fingers, etc. I am most comfortable with the alto, I do 90% of my practicing on it. I am second most comfortable with tenor. Then soprano, then bari. I have what I call refresher practices with the other horns to get them to a working level to play in an ensemble, after which point I sound better than I probably ever have on those horns, very on par with my alto sound. Still, I'm very harsh on myself and can definitely notice the differences. My listeners usually do not, even other musicians who are also critical of themselves.

It's mostly a matter of having good equipment on all horns, treating all horns and the respective accessories with equally good care (most people will have one or two that they bother to have a reedguard/rotate reeds for, or only one or two of their horns have refaced mouthpieces. etc.), and picking one to focus on in practice while refreshing yourself regularly on the others. The real secret I find, in addition to those things, is just doing tone and technique exercises on all the horns regularly. Every other day I pick up the tenor or the soprano or both and do my long tones, overtones, undertones, scales, and arpeggios, then play some tunes and improvise for a bit to keep my chops up on each.

[Christian W]

Razzy - I hear what you are saying.

I feel the same way about my Alto playing - 95% of my playing is done on it, so I guess logically it will have the closest to a killer sound when compared to my other horns. Not that I feel my Alto sound is a killer sound - .......... yet.

I guess my question is more pointing to the need to practice on all horns that you what to have a good sound on, regularly.

My situation at the moment probably only allows me to spend quality time on Alto, which I don't really mind. I too do the "refresher" practices like you mentioned when I need to play the other horns in an ensemble etc. At the same time, I don't think I would call STB a "solo" horn as such. That is where more practice time and focus on each horn would need to be done to get my sound and ability on each horn up to a decent standard.

anyway, thanks for your thoughts

[Razzy]

Also be sure to check your listening diet. Not as many soprano and bari players out there as there are tenor and alto. Naturally most of our library of recordings is filled with alto and tenor stuff, but how much soprano or bari? Not much comparitively, probably. This is just me, yours could be different. Seek out more soprano sax and bari sax recordings, classical and jazz or whatever you want to play. I play both and sometimes rock, R&B etc. on all the horns so I try to find as much as I can listen to for all those.

[kornflakes]

Many start out on alto and 'progress' onto tenor or whatever, or they fall in love with the tonal qualities of the alto and stick with it. Maybe for me, i play alto because the tenor i hear is always the trombone as this was my first instrument. I love the tonal quality of the alto saxophone but it does annoy me that i have to work a lot harder on my trombone to get a lot less out of it than i do from my alto sax. Thems the breaks i guess.

[Riff]

...if you had all day to practice 24/7, do you think that you would still need to focus on one horn for a certain period of time to develop "a sound" on that type.

Yes and no. Certainly practice is paramount to building a good sound but equipment is definitely a limiting factor. I played a Mark VI tenor for nearly 30 years. I was never completely satisfied with my sound. Went through many mouthpiece/ligature/reed combinations during that time as you might imagine. My sound was good, even complimented by many, but it was not where I wanted it to be. Then I finally tried a JK SX90R. That was it! Gave up the Mark VI and switched brands. I couldn't be happier.

I also play Soprano (Mark VI) & Alto (Series III). I'm generally happy with my soprano sound though I don't have much call to double on it. It now seems time to change altos. The compact Selmer sound just doesn't do it for me anymore. Especially when I have to change from my JK tenor to the Series III. The sound seems constrained.

So I guess I'm saying that if you just can't seem to find the right mouthpiece set up, don't hesitate to try some different horns.

[markieg]

It also depends on music styles and the type of sound you want. I want a really rough sound. I find while switching it is much easier to get a good tone out of a lower instrument than a higher one. Maybe practice more on S/A. I know one thing I always did was practice on a LaVoz hard and perform on a LaVoz medium, that way it was a little more edgy and had some bite. Maybe practice all Bb parts on Sop and all Eb parts on alto and perform on the desired instrument. I don't know much about switching in a classical/concert band setting. You definitely don't want to practice to overpower the band. You will probably be a lot better on the one you want to develop more. Definitely play more on the one you want to be "killer". I play alto now and plan on fixing up a C-mel, but I used to double on bari. I would never bring the bari home, just practice on alto. I had a fairly good sound on alto at the time, and killer on bari. Not just killer, but murderous. You should have seen the flute players in front of me give me the look when I hurt their ears. Very fun.

[Morry]

Well, I don't have a "killer" sound on any of them. I had a better sound back when I played more, gigging in a band, along with ensembles in college. Now, I only get a chance to sit and play a couple of times a week, and my sound and technique show it. So, I'm at the point that I may never be able to devote enough time to it again to get to the point I'd like to be. Therefore, if I feel like playing soprano today, I do it, without worrying whether I need to shed more on tenor or not. It usually has to do with who I'm listening to that week.

[Razzy]

Also remember what you're talking about here: your sound. This embodies tone, articulation, phrasing, everything. But it mostly embodies tone. Articulation is the first and last page of the book called tone. This is why I practice tone for about an hour each day, just tone, and articulation for about 20 minutes. That's how I get closer to the sound I want, because after all, we're never quite "there", are we 8)

[j44breaker]

Nice topic and remarks guys. I'm a college student currently playing on an alto. I need some opinions.

I have enough money to either buy a pro alto or a semi-pro tenor. What do you guys think: expand my horizons (and flatten my wallet with all the new equipment and music I must buy) with a tenor, or completely upgrade to a new alto (and just passing down my old alto equipment) to be one step further to possible tone that I've been searching for?

I understand that it's the player's responsibility (not the horn's) to practice tone and articulations, but as in reaching toward a higher playing level, should I also be considering expanding my repertoire (as of now: I'm a 2nd year undergrad) with a tenor, or sticking with what I'm familiar with?

If I wish to play for a very, very, very long time, is familiarizing oneself with the S,T, and B during the college level necessary seeing as though I never play on them during Wind Ensemble, Jazz Band, or Chamber groups? Should I really have another (STB) ready and available for me to use in emergency?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would feel that my old chops on my alto would wither after acquainting myself with the tenor for long periods of time. Would I be wasting my time with another horn if my alto chops will suffer in the long run, because of having to "trade-off" my alto practice time for my tenor practice time?

Thanks!
Joe

[Manny]

that is actually a great question that I need answered also...

[Christian W]

I think to an extent, anything that is going to take you away from practicing Alto, be it another horn, or anything else, will always result in your alto playing changing, positive or negative. For me, it changed in a negative way and this was when I started teaching more. I would find that I would have less time to practice, and my chops obviously went down the toilet until I realised this was happening, and I rectified it.

I think that when we talk about developing a sound on alto, it is not just an objective, technical issue of articulation etc. For me, my alto sound develops most when I listen the most, and then practice during the day separate to my listening. I am not talking about a real-time intentional action of mimicking other players whilst listening to them. I mean, I listen to alto players, and this kind of "tunes my ear" into my alto sound by osmosis. It allows me to examine my alto sound more when I play. If I was not able to play my alto, I don't think I would gain as much benefit from the listening I am doing informally.

I think the act of "just playing" is immensely important to developing a sound. Intentional tone development may not always be the most important way to develop your tone - although it is obviously the easiest to measure. Just playing develops the familiarity you need to develop your own sound. You need to be able to feel your horn with your breath, from all angles, and you need to know how it responds to ynur breath and emotions. This is just a matter of time spent playing and experimenting with sounds.

In terms of practicing other horns as well, it is not that playing my S, T or B effects my alto playing negatively, but I do think that in playing these horns it does take away focus on my Alto sound. I don't think that the actual act of playing a different type of horn would effect your chops, from the point of few of some major embouchure change or anything, and in some ways it may help your alto playing, especially playing tenor or baritone. I think in the end, it just comes down to the fact that you are going to be spending time doing something other than playing your alto, and this will obviously change how your alto playing develops. I think that it is a little too complicated and subjective to determine exactly how this will change, and whether or not it will be a positive or negative thing. Again, I think that this issue is in the ear of the player.

[kevvieg]

J44breaker: Get suitable mouthpieces and the transition become much easier.

I think the concept of "killer sound" is relative, but I would cite a number of great players who sound good on all of their axes:(in no particular order)

Nick Brignola (Wasn't nuts about his tone on tenor, but everything else was A+)

Jerome Richardson
Scott Robinson
James Carter
Bill Perkins
Roger Rosenberg
Tim Price

and there's a lot more than that.

I find that each horn I play is another facet of my personality. I approach them as separate instruments with individual voices. I feel constrained when I only get to play one horn, but that's me.

[robbieg]

j44, your alto/tenor question is hard to answer. It depends on the alto you currently have. If you don't have a pro alto, I'd probobly just suggest getting one and developing that more. But if you already have a pro alto, then Tenor might be an option.

[sessionsax]

I am usually OK switching between saxes. I do a lot of work on Soprano, alto, and tenor. What kills me is the doubles. I had a session the other day that was a ton of soprano, one tenor tune, and one alto tune. It was three songs and it took a couple of hours to lay down the tracks -- no charts.

The last tune I was working on required double tracks of flute and piccolo and these came at the end of the session. I had the hardest time with octaves after working the saxes so hard. I almost gave up on the flute part and had to fight an airy tone the whole track through.

[JfW]

I generally have no problem going between horns. I didn't when I was doing alto <=> soprano in HS, and I have no trouble going alto <=> tenor now.

I blew on a tenor for the first time a few weeks ago, and it didnt' seem too much different that alto, though it demanded a little more relaxation and a bit more air, I had no trouble hitting the high F (even though I do have some trouble on alto) and relatively little hitting the low C#-Bb on my first tries.

is that not normal?

[Razzy]

That's fairly normal. Such that you have a good concept on alto, larger horns should come a bit more easily. What I find much harder is moving from a larger to a smaller horn. That took me months.

[Kenfen]

When I studied with George Garzone, he said practice clarinet and see how it will improve your sax playing. I tried it and it worked. Funny. I find the clarinet to be a bear, and playing it made the sax seem like child's play in comparison.

I also find that when I played Bari more, I had more wind control for my love, the Tenor. so, I'll be checking in regularly with the Bari...

I tend to gravitate to the Tenor cause it's my "voice", but I love playing the others as well. Each has it's own special thing, doesn't it?

Kind Regards,

Kenfen