Scales

[Benji]

Hi there!

I've got a big big problem!
I love to play my sax BUT...I think I'm too lazy.
I've got a pretty good teacher and I like him a lot. Normally I practice my homeworks for him but I don't practice any scales...
Scales are my big problem. I don't know where to start and how exactly practice them. And what kinds of scales do I have to practice????

How long do you think I should practice scales?
And how long should I practice every day????

I'm a student and I've got a lot of time...maybe all I need is a kick into my ***...

do you have any hints or tips for me? That would be great!!!
thanks a lot!
benjamin

[Anonymous]

You need to learn ALL the scales. There's no way around it. The best way is to work on one scale each week. Practice them by ear, with no music in front of you, until you can play them from memory.

Just do it! :wink:

[brucesax]

IMHO, Practicing scales is a necessary evil. You should get into a pattern of practicing these and in rhythm with a metronome.

This is what I was taught (I hope I explain this correctly..I'm sure if I don't someone will correct me!)

1. Get a metronome. The digital ones that you clip on your music stand are great.

2. First basic set of scales to learn: all major scales, minor melodic, minor harmonic & chromatic

3. For major & minor scales: Starting with low Bb, play two octives. For F#, G, G# & A scales which you should play one octive. Ascending, play quarter note (root), 6 eighth notes, quarter note (root -middle), 6 eighth notes, quarter note (root - top), Descending, 6 eighth notes, quarter note (root-middle), 6 eighth notes, quarter note (root-bottom).

For chromatic: low Bb - High F, play in tripelets all eighth notes ascending & descending.

4. IMPORTANT: Get a finger chart that shows proper fingerings PER SCALE. Different fingerings are used per each key that you play in. Those side keys & alt F# do have a purpose.

5. Once you become proficient on these scales, you can add apreggios, modal scales & chordal scales to you repertoir of scales.

6. Your goal should be to play all scales eventually at 120 beats.

7. Always warm up 1st with your scales before continuing to your practice.

I was NEVER taught how to practice scales until I entered music school in college. Through this, I realized that I was NEVER taught the correct fingerings PER KEY/SCALE either. This is important & can help you become a more proficient player much earlier on. You will not fear certain keys signatures over others as you will think of all keys as equal & shift for one to another as if you are shifting gears in a car.

I really hope this helps. (Taxed my feeble brain trying to explain this.)
:)

[JEdge]

Alright, lets not be to ambitious...
This guy is talking about how lazy he is, do you think he is going to be motivated by someone telling him he needs to memorize and perfect 36 scales plus chromatic?

You should probably start with the basics and just learn all of your major scales as well as arpeggios. Later on you can continue to add in more scales like minor, blues, penatonic, thirds, but for now its probably better to start basic.

You should try to play your scales at the begining of every practice session, and its best if you could do them everyday. They only take 20 minutes or so and will help you immensly (sp). So force yourself to play them, i guarentee you have 20 minutes of time to spare a day and once you get in a groove it wont be a pain, it will just be part of the routine. Scales are extremely important and unfortunately must be learned and the sooner you do the better off you will be.

Im not sure if this info will help but I at least tried :)

[brucesax]

JEdge,

It's unfortunate that you make such a comments. I am not here to motivate. Rather, BenJ asked for some guidence as to HOW to practice scales. I am no teacher but I was a student so I can only relate to him how I was taught. And from my experience it is a very valuable lesson. I did not take the time to pragmatically write this down only to have someone else blow off my reply to a direct plea for help and give very vague answers that do not even address a way to achieve what is asked.

We all know the saying "How do you eat an elephant? o-n-e p-i-e-c-e a-t a t-i-m-e. Learning scales are the same...one note - one scale at a time.

This isn't a place where you can give lessons & he didn't ask for it to be given piecemeal. What I spelled out is a basic outline in whole as simply as I could.

From what I gather from your comments are just that...comments with no substance.

[Jim S]

brucesax - I like the info you provided for scales practice. I've been playing scales for a while and can always use suggestions on different ways to practice them. I have never practiced scales using alternate fingerings though. I have a number of method books but have never read anything that suggested alternate fingerings for specific scales. Do you know any books that cover this? If not could you please elaborate a little?

[max]

I think (and please correct me if I'm wrong!) that he just means using alt. F# (Gb) for Db and Gb major, side C for C and G major, etc...

[brucesax]

As I mentioned, I am not an instructor and am hoping that some others that are educators such as Paul Coats will lend their expertise to this worthy subject.

[JEdge]

Sorry brucesax, in no way did I mean to offend you. I kinda figured my post would get this sort of response by you...

I am in no way a teacher of any sort, I am a student and it wasnt all that long ago that I was asking these same questions that Benji is asking now.

I didnt go in depth because if he wanted an in depth response he could look at yours. The only way I really disagreed with you was in what to learn first. Throwing words like minor melodic seems a little overwhelming, at least to me. Thats why I tried to tell Benji to start more basic and hopefully with something he is a little more confortable with... Like basic scales.

Anyways I am really sorry, it is evident that you spent a good amount of time formulating an accurate and well written response.

And on polite :) defensive note... It was just my opinion, that is what makes this forum such a help isnt it? It gives many diffrent opinions on practically anything you want to know about the saxophone. Getting negative responses like yours makes me not want to key in on my limited, but possibly valuable, experiences. (I realize my original post might have been a "negative response" to your original post and I am sorry. Next time ill try to say what I feel in a more polite way.) :D

[brucesax]

JEdge,

I do appreciate your response. I am too sorry I had to come down on you original post.

It may be a positive idea if Benji copy this string. He could discuss it with his teacher who could explain this method of approaching scales to him & use this as a starting point to develope his rote scale exercises.

The goal here should be to share experiences, gained knowlege & become better players.

Cheers

[Benji]

hi again!

first i want to sax THANKS to you all!
i really want to know so many things concerning scales and technic!!!!

i've got the bad habit that i normally just practise my homeworks for the next lesson and i don't do very much for my technic.... :(
I play the chromatic scale and the circle of 5th every day but just one time up and down - that's it...that isn't enough, is it???

I don't really know WHY I'm too lazy to practise this stuff...I really din't know it. I love to play sax and I really want to become a good saxplayer...BUT...

hope to read more of you all!!!
bye, benjamin

[David A.]

Here's a great way to play your scales, and if you've got a lot of time, then that's good. Get a metronome. If you can, get Londiex's Les Gammes Conjointes et Intervalles. That book is basically every scale, major and harmonic minor in every interval. If you don't get it, then do this: Learn every major scale in eighths notes at a set tempo FULL RANGE. Keep all of your scales at the same tempo. Play them until they're perfect. Then, pump up the speed, but do it cautiously. When the scales fail to be perfect, you're going too fast, and should play them slower.

[Joel]

Hey Bruce, Im very interested in these fingerings you speak of. If you get a chance could you post them for us. Max mentioned using the alt. F# and side C keys. Id like to know what you do with Bb's and high E and F. I learned all the major and minor scales about 2 months ago and i play through them for a about an hour a day and id like to be more efficient and fast. I could probably figure them out by myself but I really wanna be sure. I guess thats a downfall of having a teacher that plays the clarinet. :(
Thanks

[BobH]

I love practicing scales, but there was a time when I absolutely loathed the task. It requires discipline and self-motivation. However, one way you can make the job more fun is to pick up either (or both) "Gettin' It Together" and "Major and Minor" by Jamie Aebersold. These practice CDs are ideal for scale and arpeggio practice. You get to hear how the scale you're working on fits into a harmonic context. Good for not only training your fingers, but your ears as well.

[Jerry K.]

I'll tell you what has helped me a great deal. I was in my local music store checking out some books a few months ago when I ran into my teacher. He suggested "strongly" that I pick up Jamey Aebersold's Volume 24 - Major and Minor in Every Key. This book is geared towards improving your jazz improvising and has background music for the various keys you are working on. I have made significant improvements in my comfort level on all the major and minor scales since buying and working with this book. Just working up and down the scales was just too boring for me to dedicate significant time to. This method on the other hand is fun and it really improves your ability to more freely play notes in a given scale to the point that it becomes very natural.

[Nefertiti]

I agree with rdindingsome recordings that are in different keys and practice the scales to them. Alot more interesting. :lol:

[Nefertiti]

Should say I agree with Jerry K. that's what happens while playing ball with your kids. :D

[max]

Joel, here are my opinions - I know not everyone will agree with these, but it works for me. Also, bear in mind that these are just "guidelines" - there will be exceptions.

Anway...

When playing scales, I generally use side Bb (LH1,2|side Bb).
When playing arpeggios, I generally use the bis key.

When playing scales when I'm going to turn around and come back down after the palm keys, I use the palm key fingerings for E and F.

If I'm working into the altissimo, I'll use the front fingerings for E and/or F, depending on the situation.

Hope it helps!

[LennyH]

Benji,
It does take some dicipline to practice scales every day, but for me it has become a routine that I actually enjoy (sick, I know). I highly recommend Joe Viola's Scale Studies. Until I got that book I really didn't know how to practice scales effectively. Just practicing a scale once, even up and down the horn entire does not do it in my opinion. Once I learned how scales should be practiced, I fell into a pattern and don't mind it at all. I'll tell you what motivates me: improvement. I can't believe how much better my playing got after a few months of serious scale practice and that keeps me going.

Practicing scales intensely like that really helps me concentrate on my fingering and on removing any sloppiness as well. It really exposes problems.

Good luck.
Lenny

[mostly alto guy]

I find that playing a familiar piece in the key/scale I'm working on helps break up some of the tedium AND solidifies the learning.

Say you're working C# major. You know "Happy Birthday" begins on the dominant G#, so take off with the tune. Think your way through where you have to go in the scale, and when you miss a note, you'll know it right away. When it happens, start over, remembering the note you missed and why. Keep it up until your fingers and your brain get it right all the way through (even if it seems like it was just luck).

Try more tunes, harder ones, some that have accidentals (tonal center shifts) in the melody, and as your mind gets around the scale, the tunes get easier. You start getting more and more tunes perfect the first time. (Incidentally, this can help improvisation skills, too.) Now go back to the straight scale. Better? Place with the scale, up two tones down one, up three down two, and so on. It'll be dead easy once your brain and fingers have become convinced that you can make music in a previously tricky key.

[Razzy]

General guidelines I agree with:

-Make sure they are all memorized. This is easier said than done. The best way to memorize new scales is to play each interval over and over in sequence. For example, F# major, go F# G# F# G# F# G# F#, G# A# G# A# G# A#, etc. and they will be memorized pretty quickly. Do the same descending and ascending.

-Make sure you know them the full range of the horn, even that lowest A# on the F# major scale, as one example.

-You should practice all scales to at least F or F# in the upper range if you aren't familiar with altissimo.

-Also one new one: When learning scales, do them all SLURRED. This will be so that you notice any connection (movement between fingerings) problems and are able to correct them. The most common ones are between Side Bb and Ab, side F# and D#, etc. So many people practice their scales tongued staccato all the time, then ask them to play the whole thing slurred in perfect rhythm, and it sounds like absolute crap! So you don't want this to happen :)

Regarding alternate fingerings:

-My teacher told me this a long time ago and it pretty much holds true: in major and harmonic minor scales (the only ones you really need to practice in full range form since the others are just variations or modulations on these), use Side Bb with there is an A# in the key signature; otherwise, always use biss. For arpeggios, use biss for Bb only when there's no F or F# in the arpeggio. Otherwise use 1-1 (F) or 1-2 (F#). Arpeggios should also be slurred, full range.

-High E and F, well, the general rule is that if you are going to high F#, use the altissimo fingerings for E and F. If the highest range note you're going to play is an F, use the palm keys. If you intend to go beyond F# in the altissimo range, use the front altissimo fingerings.

-And of course, use Side F# for keys in which there is both an F/E# and an F/Gb. Otherwise, use regular F#.

-We all know of the alternate fingerings for G# that are often not discussed. Use these fingerings in arpeggios in which there is both the G#/Ab and the corresponding left pinky table low note (C#, B, Bb).

[stitch]

-We all know of the alternate fingerings for G# that are often not discussed. Use these fingerings in arpeggios in which there is both the G#/Ab and the corresponding left pinky table low note (C#, B, Bb).

yeeeeah ..... but just for the sake of argument ... what if some of us don't know those Gsharp alternatives :oops:

[Media Lint]

I think that (what about those of us that don't know those alternates) is what the teacher who can instruct you on the most fluid method of playing any particular scale comes in.

Having gone through that rote once and forgotten a lot of it, personally, I focus on playing. Sax is still a secondary instrument to me, if anything I should *really* be practicing my piano chops and I don't do that either. I just play. It is both fun and practice. I have a chord chart taped to my mic stand of a work I'm writing at the moment that evolves without repeating and has dozens of chords - I'm coming up with a sax melody for what is now bass, drums and and synth.. Chord relationships are more my focus, that and sound as paint on canvas. Still, in the back of my mind I still know all the scales, and could probably stumble through nearly any of them if I had to. Someone pointed this out to me once when I went on my own laziness spiel ...

[max]

-We all know of the alternate fingerings for G# that are often not discussed. Use these fingerings in arpeggios in which there is both the G#/Ab and the corresponding left pinky table low note (C#, B, Bb).

stitch, most modern horns depress the G# key with any of the other LH table keys (C#, B, Bb). If your horn does this, you can just leave the little finger down for the arpeggio.

Ex: Db F Ab - you can leave your little finger on the Db (C#) key to play the Ab (G#) (and it won't affect the sound of the F).

Again, look at your horn to make sure this will work - some vintage horns don't do this.

[brucesax]

Ok,

Major scales:

Bb - side Bb both middle & top octives
B - side Bb both middle & top octives
C - side alt. C on top only
C# - Bb bis both middle & top octives
D - n/a
Eb - Bb bis both middle & top octives
E - n/a
F - Bb bis both middle & top octives
F# - Start on regular F#, side A#(side Bb) 1st oct. , alt F# mid. I you want to add the 2nd octive, side A#(side Bb) 2 oct.,side Eb, Front F, Front F# (add lower side key to front F)
G - n/a. For 2nd octive play Front E, F#, G



Max, tried your G#. Nice tip.

[brucesax]

Opps,

Ab - Bb Bis Key
A - n/a

[JL]

Lots of great tips......

Regarding the side Bb and C keys, I find it useful to try out both fingerings (Bb side & Bb bis; C side & front) on all scales, arpeggios, etc. (where those notes are present, of course). Then it becomes clear where one fingering works better than the other. I've found that in many cases, either fingering, side or front, is equally effective. Experimentation is the key. Some passages in some tunes just seem to call for one fingering over the other, but I usually discover the best one by experimenting. Eventually you make the right choice intuitively.

It doesn't always follow the rules. For example, I often use the bis key when playing in B major or F#, but on an extended chromatic run, I always use the side keys for both C and Bb.

[frankbiff]

Try Technique of the Saxophone - Scale Studies by Joseph Viola. This is Vol 1 of a 3 vol series. Berklee Press, dist by Hal Leonard, ISBN 0-7935-5409-8
168 pages with 210 exersices. About $14.

[uCtaudio]

Her is a little thing i learned from my teatcher, to get a good grip of every scale. Start slow and work your way up in tempo.

in C-major:
c-d-e-f-g-f-e-d; 2x (legato-staccato)
c-d-e-f-g-a-b-c-d-c-b-a-g-f-e-d; 2x (legato-staccato)
c-e-d-f-e-g-f-d; 3x (legato - staccato) with a long 2beat "C" at the end!

this is to be performed i "one go", without stops between the different parts. This is to be done in all keys... and make it smoooth. (and with out breathing inbetween)

it's a good finger drill, and mind work

uCtaudio

[Tears June]

Have ever consider what scale to learn first, which come 2nd, third, fourth.....

Yes, the most common & logical is start from major scale first (in all keys), then Minor. But there are 4 minor, which you will more focus. After minor, go to Blues or Pentatonic (major/minor) ?

Who can tell ?


:cry:

[uCtaudio]

Have ever consider what scale to learn first, which come 2nd, third, fourth.....

I used the circle of 5th...

C-G-D-A-E-B-F#-C# (sharp's)
C-F-Bb-Eb-Ab-Db-Gb-Cb (flat's)

uCtaudio

[bari_sax_diva]

Hey Benji... here's yet another way of approaching scales, and it REALLY makes you think: Instead of buying a book with all the scales in it, sit down with your teacher and write your own, and use that to practice with. For instance, let's say you're doing major scales. Your teacher could write out a G major scale (or whever you'd like to start) and then note the intervals. Then, you can write out the rest in whatever sequence works best for you. Develop the book as you go along, so that you're writing up (for example) melodic minor scales as you learn them. Having to do this--and get it right--helps you become more familiar with the way each scale is constructed.

When you finish, you'll have a book of scales you can refer back to whenever you want, customized for the way you practice. It's also a document of what you've accomplished--you can look at those scales later and pat yourself on the back for knowing each one.

Incidentally, I make heavy use of this technique when I invent arpeggio and interval exercises for myself. While I realize that kinetic (finger) and ear training are both very important, jazz also requires you to think things through, and for some reason my brain "gets it" faster when I've had to put pencil to paper first. Just another way of getting to the same place.

Gotta go practice. Have fun!
-Leanne

[disgruntleddave]

just start on a D scale (easy) and work on scales going up chromatically. i started a few weeks ago. You should have em all memorized (not an issue for me luckily) and use a metronome. I have a couple scales upto 200 bbm (playing sixteenth notes), and all of them consistant at 140. my goal is 200 on each.

just do it. dont bicker and take a bit of time to do em.

when i started practicing em, i played for around an hour of scales. not as bad as i thought too.

[Razzy]

Majin, is that articulated 16th notes, or slurred? If slurred, impressive. If articulated, extremely impressive 8) Our region band auditions and such require articulated scales so I have them all to about 120 articulated 16th notes.

I can't stress enough the importance of practicing the scales full range. You could do it the other way if you like: as many complete octaves as possible (one or two), but that would be like doing bicep curls from a 90 degree angle (between forearms and chest) to a 45 degree angle, you'd only be utilizing a small portion of your muscle range. The way to get best results, of course, is starting with your elbows almost flat to your abdomen, and bringing the weights up to your shoulders :wink:

[frankbiff]

RazzY... Are your familiar with preacher curls? Doing an exersice over a limited range is OK, and sometimes better provided you do other exerices to cover the full range. (preacher curles + inclined dumb bell curles on a bench) With scales I think you must go from end to end on the horn, but it is good to do it in overlaping ranges of an octave and starting and ending on each tone of the scale.(modes?)

[disgruntleddave]

slurred of course. i dont think articulated at those speeds is possible.

[brucesax]

Both tongued & slurred at 120 is the norm

[alsdiego]

Brucesax,

I'm confused... I've set my metronome at 120, and I'm practicing scales. My choices:

1. Play quarter notes (really easy, once you know the scales).

2. Play eighth notes (comfortable in most keys)

3. Play sixteenth notes (just got a high-five from Charlie Parker).

4. Play 32nd notes (impossible).

Sorry for the stupid question.

Al

[tomsch]

For years I would work my scales in sequence: c-d-e-f-g-a-b-c-b-a-g-f-e-d-c. This was fine for learning the basic scale but only after I began working on intervals within the scale did I make any real progress. My routine now is each scale using intervals of 2nds, 3rds, 4ths, and 5ths. Translating this to impovisation becomes easier since I tend to think of intervals vs. simply running scales.

[Cat!]

hi ive been playing the sax for 8 years, but i never practiced much, ( i was lazy), but now i am beginning to see the light!

i didn't really see a better spot for these questions so here they are:

What is an arpegio?

What is the alernate G# fingering?

And finally, should i stop practicing scales after 7 flats/sharps?
(for example should i practice scales like g# melodic minor?)

[JL]

To answer your questions, Cat!, an arpeggio involves playing the notes of a chord, moving up or down in 3rds. For example, a C maj 7th chord arpeggio would be: C E G B. You can play the entire scale as an arpeggio (C maj chord with extensions): C E G B D F A.

See responses above for the G# alternate fingering.

Yes, you should practice G# melodic minor, but be aware that it is the same thing as Ab melodic minor.

One thing I'd like to add to this thread is the reason for learning scales. The obvious reason is that music is based on scales and chords. However, just running scales (in whatever patterns you choose) won't produce music any more than reciting the alphabet will produce literature. What you really are doing when learning and practicing scales is training your mind and fingers so that you have the tools that are necessary to play music. Without these tools (the scales) you don't stand much chance. Just don't mistake the tools for the music. One good way to apply scale study to music is to learn tunes and notice the note choices and how each note relates to the key (scale). The "Happy Birthday" idea given in a previous post is a good example.

[RaZaDAM]

Wow, i just read every reply to this thread, i think i'm gonna go learn some scales now, even if it is 8.20am.:D

I haver some questions on scales. I saw people earlier mentioning modes, i was just wondering, how do you work out this hole mode thing? Every example i've seen is always in C, is there just one key? I'm really confused, cause i've had no teaching on this, only what i've picked up myself, and i can only use the dorian, and the mixolydian, but that's because i've memorised the scale patterns, i don't know how to work them out.

Thanks,

aDAM.

[Sigmund451]

Aside from finding scales boring...(yea, like that's news) I am wondering when it is time in a player's training to begin daily practice of them. I am pretty new to sax but not music. Im still working on tone and getting fingers where and when they belong...so Im basically a beginner with a fair degree of musical knowledge (maybe I use fair liberallly). Nonetheless, when do I start this...I can improvise a little off of fake books but far from anything impressive.

[LennyH]

Sigmund451,

I don't feel like I've practiced unless I practice scales and scale exercises. I practice them every day. If I practice an hour, scales and patterns takes up 1/2 to 2/3 of that. You'll definitely notice improvement.

Get some books, like Joe Viola's Scale Studies to help you learn how they should be practiced effectively, if you aren't familiar already. If you're into Jazz, pick up Patterns for Jazz. I actually enjoy practicing these patterns (sick I know!).

Lenny

[Sigmund451]

Lenny , what book for jazz scales do your suggest. That is my interest....I had a feeling that was going to be what I needed to do but Im looking for an excuse not to :wink:

Guess there isnt one.

Toss a title my way and I guess its time to buckle down and do it.

thanks

[orions_belt27]

Check out the following link:

http://tyala.freeyellow.com/4scales.htm

i think it's the best and most detailed i've yet come across. there're modes, pentatonics, major, minor stuff ALL IN THERE!

enjoy, i got mind screwed the first time i tried to take in all of the info. :P

[Sigmund451]

:Shocked: Egads....is there something out there a little less complex....all those numbers are confusing....hurts my head. I think I need scales 101.

[LennyH]

Sigmund451, I'd highly recommend Joe Viola's Scale Studies. You can get it at jazzbooks.com and other places. It's all major scales & diads, triads, etc. Believe me, a few months with this book and you'll have a handle on major scales.

Lenny

[orions_belt27]

haha Sigmund451, warned you didnt I? :lol:

yeah, but i think the website's pretty good with examples. anyway, there are bits even i dun fully understand :) but it comes to you naturally after awhile :)

perhaps you could get a book dat teaches u scales or sumthin :) my own experience with learning scales was actually from reading Paul C's beginner articles :)

[Sigmund451]

Thanks guys, glad I could give you a laugh.

I will check out Joe's scale book and see what I can make of it.

Dangit...I really hate applying myself and being disciplined....it just isnt in my nature but I suppose its a necessary evil. :twisted:

thanks

[JL]

i was just wondering, how do you work out this whole mode thing?

RaZaDAM, you can get this info from various publications and on the web, as other posters have pointed out. But I'll try to give you a short answer to your question and hopefully not confuse the issue.

Modes are derived from a specific scale (usually from the major scale, but the melodic minor scale also has a series of modes) by using different notes as the starting point, or "tonic," for each mode. So the major scale has seven tones and therefore seven modes, each starting on a different note. If you number the notes of a major scale from 1 to 7, the modes can be figured out as follows: 1=ionian, 2=dorian, 3=phrygian, 4=lydian, 5=mixolydian, 6=aeolian, 7=locrian. So, for example, a dorian mode starts on the 2nd note of a major scale, the lydian mode starts on the 4th note of a major scale, and so on.

This applies to all major scales, so you can figure out the modes from each major scale. You'll find that the same intervals apply for each given mode. All dorian modes have a minor third and minor seventh, for example. So there are two ways of figuring out D dorian: Take a C major scale and play it from "D" to "D," OR take a D major scale and flat the third and seventh tones (F# goes to F and C# goes to C). To give another example, here's how to get E dorian: Take a D major scale and play it from "E" to "E," OR take an E major scale and flat the third and seventh. And so on.

Regarding the original post on this thread, I too am lazy. But I find it easy to practice since I love playing so much. The real trick is to develop an intense interest in playing the horn and making music so you just CRAVE playing. Then it won't matter if you're lazy. You'll want to play anyway. But you might find yourself neglecting other things. So it goes.

[orions_belt27]

Hey Adam,

if you dun mind, drop me an email at orions_belt27@yahoo.com and i will explain to you how to derive the various 7 different modes of each major scale.

i'd show you also how these modes relate to the maj scales and their TONIC minor scales. therefore it makes transformin a major scale into a minor scale very easy.

best regards,
ben :)

[tubbycub]

A note on the alternate G# fingering if you double on the clarinet or flute. NEVER turn the use this fingering into a habit as you will have trouble trying to kick it when you switch to a clarinet or flute as it does not apply on them.

[wainsworth]

I was interested in the reply to Benji by Max who said you should use the side C for C and G major. I have tried this and it seems to me smoother than the transition from "front" B natural to front C natural. It is just that the move from side C to D [although it works for me] just seemed incorrect. When I practice C major and G major scales from now on should I accustom myself to using the side C.

One other question if I may. In the long thread to Benji's question, the long fingering for B flat was not mentioned. Does that mean that it is not used for scales? The saying is, "Bis if by leap, side if by step." So when does one use the long fingering?

Sorry to be so long questioning something in this thread but I printed it out and was just recently referring to it [I only have about nine months experience playing saxophone.

[Cat!]

When you say "all" scales, do you mean it is necessary to practice all 15 major scales, or all major scales that have different pitches (like playing through the circle of 5ths, you would skip a few flat scale)

or other types besides major?

[JL]

First, a correction in my previous post. I said dorian scales have a "minor second" and minor seventh. I meant to say "minor third" (NOT minor second). Sorry if that caused confusion.

Cat!, "all the scales" includes some that aren't derived directly from the major scales. But it will be much easier if you learn the major scales first. Then, all the modes that are derived directly from major scales will be under your fingers; you just have to play from a different starting tone for each mode (as I outlined in my former post).

The modes based on major scales use the same notes as a major scale. Other scales exist that use different notes. So melodic minor (as used in jazz), for example, is a major scale with a flatted third (once you flat the third it becomes "minor"); this results in a series of tones not found in any major scale, although you have changed only one note--the third.

Then there are diminished scales, blues scales, pentatonic scales, and a few other exotic types of scale. But start with the major scales and learn them well.

[altobeginner]

This is a VERY helpful thread. Thanks especially to Brucesax for his chart of major scales and alternate fingerings.

Some questions.

1. Where neither the Bis nor the Side Bb is indicated, is the "One + One" Bb fingering to be assumed?

2. What about the alternate middle register D (left palm key) and middle register C# spatula?
Aren't those good for some situations too?

[speyman]

Play them on the complete range of the horn. Top to Bottom. Play with a swing feel.

[hakukani]

This is a VERY helpful thread. Thanks especially to Brucesax for his chart of major scales and alternate fingerings.

Some questions.

1. Where neither the Bis nor the Side Bb is indicated, is the "One + One" Bb fingering to be assumed?

2. What about the alternate middle register D (left palm key) and middle register C# spatula?
Aren't those good for some situations too?

1. No. I NEVER use one + one. I think it's really stuffy and out of tune on many horns.

2. No, not for scales.

[Hammertime]

You won't start learning them with motivation, untill you see the reason WHY. I didn't practice them out of my own untill a few years ago...

[jazzbluescat]

This is a VERY helpful thread. Thanks especially to Brucesax for his chart of major scales and alternate fingerings.

Some questions.

1. Where neither the Bis nor the Side Bb is indicated, is the "One + One" Bb fingering to be assumed?

2. What about the alternate middle register D (left palm key) and middle register C# spatula?
Aren't those good for some situations too?

Side key Bb is my first choice, then bis, then one & one, even one & 2 on occasion. It all depends on tempo and what note you're coming from and what note you're going to. You really should know them all.

I rarely use the palm keys for the middle register except for special effect.

[hakukani]

You won't start learning them with motivation, untill you see the reason WHY. I didn't practice them out of my own untill a few years ago...

I play equally badly in all keys.;)