Vintage Selmer versus the Others...Why?

[Balladeer]

It seems that the majority of jazz tenor players play (or played) a Selmer Mark VI, Super Balanced Action, or Balanced Action tenor. These guys could choose to play a Super 20, Chu, 10M, Big B, TH&C, Committee or other vintage tenor, but they have chosen to play a Selmer. Meanwhile, those vintage tenors are demanding ever higher prices. Are the prices escalating because the price of a good Mark VI, SBA, and BA is so much higher, or are the prices rising because the vintage non-Selmer tenors are such fine instruments? Further, if the non-Selmer tenors are such fine instruments then why aren't the professional jazz tenor players using them?

[Grumps]

Mark VI tenors are simply known as the best all around horns. Some of the other vintage horns you've brought up have their quirks, and although many dig their sound, they're not willing to make certain sacrifices to play them. I'd imagine the top pros are no different in this regard.

[J.Max]

I have a bit of a theory about this...it's not so much of a theory as it is a fact of nature, but as to why most jazz players play Selmer:

The fact is that most of the players that people look up to played Selmer horns. Coltrane, Brecker, Getz, and even classical players like Larry Teal and Marcel Mule were/are all Selmer players. In fact (and I have NO evidence to support this), I would be willing to bet that the majority of great jazz/rock players today, if they don't have an endorsement contract with another company, play Selmer horns.

Why is this? Well, every brand and model of horn has it's own sound. Sure, you can sound "the same" on any horn, but each instrument is going to have it's own pallette of colors. Fact is, the Selmer Mark VI "pallette" is the standard for the reasons mentioned above. You'll notice that most of the new horns that have come out in the past twenty years or so (with some exceptions) have attempted to copy that "standard" sound. Even Selmer themselves got into the act with the Reference Series!

Also, you have to realize that most of the jazz played today is a variant on hard bop. Well, what did the originators of said style play? Selmer horns!


As to why the other horn prices are going up, there are several reasons:

1. Inflation of the market - As the top end goes up in any collectible market, the middle and lower ends will eventually follow. You can look at the vintage car market for another example of this.

2. Saxophone music itself is diversifying - It used to be that the majority of saxophone players were jazz guys...now I'm not so sure. I would say that the biggest group among saxophone players are jazz players, but there are a lot more classical, rock, studio, sacred, and what-have-you players these days. They, for various reasons, may not want to play a Selmer SBA or Mark VI (or can't afford one) so they go to another nice vintage instrument. Example: say that you're a swing player who exclusively plays in a big band. You can afford $2000 for a new horn. Now, you aren't necessarily going to want a Selmer Mark VI for big band work and you know that can't afford one, but you CAN afford a really nice Buescher. $2000 is nothing to someone looking for a Mark VI, but it's a lot more than the average Buescher player will have budgeted for a new horn. This means that you can spend $2000 on a Buescher that may have only been worth $1200 a few years ago, and retailers and auction folks know this.
There are more players out there too, which doesn't help this situation at all.

3. The internet. The rise of the online marketplace has changed all of the saxophone markets in a lot of different ways. Say that you really like King Super 20s. Unlike the late 80s/early 90s when you had to seek out other King enthusiasts and places that specialize in King horns, now all you have to do is log on to SOTW and go to the King section. If I'm a shop specializing in vintage horns, all I have to do to sell one is to go to the King forum (or whatever) and advertise my horn, whereas before, that horn might have sat in the shop while you waited patiently for someone to answer your ad in Saxophone Journal. When you can move merchandise quickly, the price goes up; it's the law of supply and demand. The internet has centralized demand. (Also, it's influential in creating demand for certain vintages of certain horns. For example, when Voldemort published his article proclaiming the Buescher TH&C tenor as the "best horn ever", people who might not have ever thought about owning a Buescher started looking at them, and with all of the online retailers, it was very easy to do.)

[JL]

And the pros are/were subject to the same marketing and peer pressure as everyone else. There was a time (and it's still this way to a large extent) that Selmer was simply considered the only horn to play. By the late 50s, Conn, Buescher, and Martin were all fading away and Selmer took over the marketplace. King hung in there with the Super 20, but for whatever reason they couldn't compete from a marketing perspective.

The question why most pros play the MKVI has been discussed over and over and it still remains a good question. I really think it has more to do with "human nature" and marketing than anything else. Of course, the MK VI is a great horn and the marketing would not have worked otherwise. Also, prior to the internet it was a different world (some of you who are younger may not realize just how different!). Way back in the early 70s, I was looking for a new horn and there was no internet or website like this one to browse with tons of good info. So I enquired at the local music store and was told in no uncertain terms: "There are Selmers and then there are all the rest; get a Selmer." It was difficult to research it much further. Most vintage horns at that time were sitting in pawn shops and were in terrible shape. There were no new pro Bueschers, Conns, or Martins. Selmer simply took over the pro market. So, given the good rep of Selmer and the fact that it would obviously do the job, most pros probably didn't think about it too much. They bought one and spent their time in the woodshed, not worrying about what other model horns might be over the horizon. At most, they might have fooled around with mpcs, but not so much with the horns.

Back in the day, maybe there were a few quality techs somewhere who were willing to refurbish the older horns, but why should they when no one would pay a decent price for them? So that may be another reason. The older, great vintage horns simply weren't available in top playing condition until recently. I'm speculating on that but it makes sense. We are very lucky now that these older horns are being rebuilt to play like new.

Finally, many will still say the VI is the best horn. I certainly thought so, and that's why I stuck with my MK VI tenor until recently. I still have it and play it, but once I tried a Buescher Aristocrat I realized, to my great surprise, that the VI wasn't necessarily the "best." I also realized this when I played a friend's Conn 10M and a King Silversonic. I'm willing to bet that if you put one of these vintage horns (in top playing condition!) in the hands of most pros, past and present, they would think twice about sticking with a MKVI.

Also, Balladeer, I think you are right that as the prices keep rising on Balanced Actions & VIs, more folks start looking at the other great vintage horns.

Long post, pure speculation, but there's gotta be a reason......

[Hurling Frootmig]

A lot of the older guys never took to the VII or the Super Action 80's. I know a number of them who played every new model that Selmer brought out and wouldn't get rid of their VI's. Most of these guys have died so I can't get their impressions of the Reference horns. My own view is that the Reference horns are more my cup of tea than anything else Selmer has brought out since 1974.

[whaler]

Past pros had access to Super 20s and 10Ms, but these horns have always been also-rans once Selmer improved the ergonomics of saxophones. 10Ms have a great sound, but have a "clunky" feel to them. Super20s also have a good sound, but IMO sound different according to the volume you play. The Super20s, at least the ones I have played, also sounded different on different days. I have seen photographs of both Coltrane and Sonny Rollins (I believe he recorded Way Out West on one) playing Super20s, but both settled on Selmer. A friend of mine just traded his Silversonic straight up for a Reference 36 and he never sounded better.

[Balladeer]

So, what I am picking up from all your responses is that the Mark VI is really that fine of a saxophone, and, even with modern technology, no manufacturer has been able to capture the combination of ergonomics and tone that the Mark VI usually has. And, many Mark VI tenors were made which made (and makes) them available.

This is pointing at the heart of my predicament. Years ago, (circa 1970) I played a Mark VI tenor in club bands while getting my applied sax degree playing a Mark VI alto in college. The alto was mine; the tenor was borrowed from the music school. That tenor played beautifully. Fast forward to 2002 when I decided to take up tenor. I had to buy something. I felt that $2500 should have bought something very nice, and I, also, (wrongly) expected that the modern manufacturers would have figured out how to make a horn as good or better than the Mark VI. There are no stores within a 6 hour drive that have a good inventory of new/used professional quality saxophones. That left me to shop mail order and to gather datapoints right here on SOTW. I am still suffering from not having what I should have bought to begin with. Back then, I probably could have afforded a $5k Mark VI. If I had to do over again, I would drive to the NJ-NY area take 2-3 days to tryout horns, buy it, and drive home. Today, I am doing my best to salvage my decision.

Just a comment. Unlike a piano, these are instruments that will be played from place to place. Packing, unpacking, and playing will invariably cause the horn to go out of adjustment. We don't have this problem with the string instruments. The price of a good sax is too much. Perhaps, having a good sax is something that only the rich can afford.

[whaler]

A pro instrument of any type is expensive (i.e. look at bassoon prices!).

[Balladeer]

whaler - To me, $2500 is expensive.

[m3pilot]

So, what I am picking up from all your responses is that the Mark VI is really that fine of a saxophone, and, even with modern technology, no manufacturer has been able to capture the combination of ergonomics and tone that the Mark VI usually has. And, many Mark VI tenors were made which made (and makes) them available.

Some are, some aren't. I've had the opportunity to play dozens of sixes in very nice condition and properly set up and most have been average at best and certainly not "worth" the asking price as a player's horn. The keyboard is great, no doubt but I would pick an "average" Super (Balanced) Action over an "average" six any day. And there are plenty of players like Don Menza (10m/30m/and now Keilwerth so I've been told) and Johnny Griffin (Super 20) that could get around on their horns just fine.

Just a comment. Unlike a piano, these are instruments that will be played from place to place. Packing, unpacking, and playing will invariably cause the horn to go out of adjustment. We don't have this problem with the string instruments. The price of a good sax is too much. Perhaps, having a good sax is something that only the rich can afford.

Which is another reason the Selmers became popular I think. They used rib mounting of the keys where the Conns and Kings were post mounted. I think the added rigidity of the rib mounting makes the horn more robust and more reliable on the road.

Of course, just my opinion but I've only played a couple of sixes that I would really want and of course, those weren't for sale.

[J.Max]

A lot of the older guys never took to the VII or the Super Action 80's. I know a number of them who played every new model that Selmer brought out and wouldn't get rid of their VI's. Most of these guys have died so I can't get their impressions of the Reference horns. My own view is that the Reference horns are more my cup of tea than anything else Selmer has brought out since 1974.


It is absolutely true that the later horns really damaged Selmer's reputation, particularly the Mark VII. The SA80 (Serie I) was a difficult horn to deal with as well, although the action was much improved, but the intonation was tough. (I've heard that Yamaha actually succeeded Selmer as the number one selling horn in this period, and Selmer didn't get the #1 spot back until the mid to late 90s. I have NO idea whether this is true.)

The Reference horns are Selmer's answer to the question "Why did they quit making the Mark VI?" and to a lesser extent, "Why can't I get a horn like the one Coltrane played?".

[A Greene]

It's not just marketing and hype. If you find a good VI - that's the end of the search. Over the years I thought the newer horns would be better - to some extent they have modern "features" but overall - I'm good with both my alto and tenor.

[JL]

It's not just marketing and hype. If you find a good VI - that's the end of the search. Over the years I thought the newer horns would be better - to some extent they have modern "features" but overall - I'm good with both my alto and tenor.

I agree with you here. I was speaking of the situation back in the '60's and '70's and I guarantee you at that time marketing and hype played a major role, but it wasn't and isn't just hype. The MKVI is a fantastic horn. And I like it better than anything that followed (those newer horns you refer to, jentone). However, many of the American vintage horns stand up very well next to the MKVI, imo. And I wouldn't ever have said that a few years ago. You have to play a well-set up 10 M or Aristocrat or Martin, etc. to appreciate this.

Also, someone mentioned that the sound of the MKVI is what everyone is used to and expects to hear. That might be a good reason NOT to play a VI, but I'm not sure the average listener really can tell the difference between various horns. Many folks can't tell an alto from a tenor. You need to satisfy yourself with the horn you choose to play.

[Razzy]

My teacher plays an SBA tenor. It's far and away the most vibrant, echoing, resounding saxophone I've played in my life, or ever expect to play... beats out all the rest by about 40% sheer sound power/quality. Some other BA's and SBA's are dull as wet socks. As with any make and model, there are some duds and some gems, but the Selmer gems seem to be, simply, MONSTROUS.

The newer Selmer horns are great but the resistance is different, they blow differently. A lot of us Selmer guys like the blowing resistance and shape of the air column in the older horns. They really vibrate in your hands, too, and the ergos are nicer, IMO, than the modern selmers.

[58tenor]

I'm not buying all the MKVI hyperbole. I think it's a bit over....blown. BUT, in 1960 or thereabouts I surely imagine it was the best sax going, bar none. There definitely is some magic to the Selmer name,real or imagined.

There are some other brands with stupendous saxes out there now, but for better or worse they all have been heavily influenced by the classic Selmers.

Somewhere is a neat article by Sal Nistico, a 10M man,about the differences between the Frenchies vs Yankees,saxwise.

Much of it depends on what you're used to but a 10M is a clunker compared to the mechanics of a VI. It's just a whole generation behind. Too bad Dex is dead, maybe we could ask him.

Ahh,the internet. Engine of change in all things,obvious and subtle. The world swapmeet. Thanks Al Gore!

[les]

Check out Jerry Bergonzi playing a 10m sometime. You'll realize, as I have, that with a little effort the problems of the 10ms ergonomics can be overcome. The rewards are worth it. Most Selmer players simply don't have the patience to deal with the 10m. They expect instant results, but learning to play a Conn requires that you slow down for a while and re-learn everything you know about playing fast. Joe Lovano occasionally plays Conns too.
The Rolled Tonehole Conns are the toughest horns on the planet. They will take much more abuse than a Selmer and keep on ticking.
I played a VI for 30 years, but I have discovered that I sound better playing a Conn. Sounding my best trumps comfort.

[JL]

Check out Jerry Bergonzi playing a 10m sometime. You'll realize, as I have, that with a little effort the problems of the 10ms ergonomics can be overcome. The rewards are worth it...........

I played a VI for 30 years, but I have discovered that I sound better playing a Conn. Sounding my best trumps comfort.

Yes indeed. I really think the ergonomics issue has been blown out of proportion. And I think I can speak to this in a fair way, since I've owned a modern Yamaha Custom alto (sold it), a Buescher TT alto (still have it), and I still own a MKVI tenor and two Buescher Aristocrat tenors. I've also played a friend's Conn 10M. I can honestly say that after playing any one of these horns for an hour or so, the keywork became a non-issue. Of all my horns, the keywork on my Buescher 156 tenor is the best--but only by a SLIGHT margin. I think the reason it's the best is that it was completely rebuilt after getting an Anderson's silver plate job. My MKVI also has great ergos and lives up to its reputation in that regard, but since it is well-worn and hasn't had a major overhaul in some time, its keywork is not quite up to what it would be otherwise. So the condition of the horn is also a factor. And lots of the older horns are in poor condition. You can't judge them until they've been set up properly.

I did put a cork riser on the D palm key of my earlier, series one Aristocrat, and that fixed the only keywork issue I had on that horn. Really, it's the sound that matters to me. I keep trying to play the VI tenor again and it always comes up a bit short compared to the Bueschers. It's subtle, but it's there. The VI is a bit stuffy and doesn't quite have the "cajones" of the Bueschers. Especially for playing the blues. But each to their own.

[kevvieg]

I was a Selmer guy for years, but I found that I prefer other horns (not that I dislike Selmer). I never liked Selmer sopranos until I tried the series III. I must say I really like it, but I don't know if I like it more than the Yamaha Custom. My alto is a Yamaha Custom Black lacquer and it is almost identical to a good VI except that I got it in 1994 new, as opposed to playing sax-roulette buying an old horn. I really like the sound of a MK VI bari, but there's a ton of horns just as good, and more consistent in intonation.

Of course the forum is about tenor, so I played a VI for a while, then a Super 20, Then a MK VII, and now a Conn 10M. I LOVE my Conn. I have no problems with the ergonomics and the sound is gold. In fact I would place my favourites, in descending order, as: 10M, Super 20, VII, VI.

My VII was a nice compromise between the guts of the Conn and the refinement of the Selmer. I didn't care about the ergos: it just sounded good....until I tried the 10 M :-)

[Tryptykon]

My first professional grade tenor was a 1949 TopHat and Cane tenor that
my Dad bestowed on me for my birthday after he saw I was getting serious
about trying to play jazz - I think I was 19-ish.

He'd been letting me use the horn, and I was very surprised that he gave it to
me because he was very fond of that tenor, and I grew up watching him play
it.

Right during this general period, it occured to me that a MKVI was the tenor
to have since it seemed that the large majority of players I was listening to
played either a VI, or as I later discovered a Balanced or Super Action tenor.

So within a few months of receiving the TH&C, I finagled my way into a mid-
60's VI tenor.

A family friend offered my Dad a Selmer alto in a trade deal, and my ears
perked up as I overheard the barter deal being put on the table.:twisted:

I inquired, then went over to his house to look at the horn.

He took it out of the closet and the case was pristine: tan leather rectangle
case with the maroon-lettered Selmer label .

I opened it and took out this museum piece of an alto saxophone - a MK VI
whose serial number read 57,xxx. The horn was so mint, and my find was
so startling, I broke out in a cold sweat from the excitement .:shaking2:

I had been corresponding with Bob Ackerman for, probably, a year and it
seemed I couldn't get into a VI for less than $2200(in 1988). He used to
send me inventory lists by mail, and I would pore over the serial numbers.

He also gave me a basic synopsis on what the playing characteristics of
the various series were - 48,000 60,000 80,000 . . . . later VIs.

When I got this alto(sorry, Dad .. I had to go over your head and buy it !)
I immediately traded it, straight-across, for the tenor of my choice.

Scored it for $500 !:toothy7: :toothy8: :occasion: :toothy10:

Bob was especially thrilled when he saw it's condition, since he saw he could
sell it to a Japanese collector for a premium. This, from his own mouth as we
spoke over the phone, once I had shipped it to NJ.

So within a few days I had my VI tenor and I was thrilled to finally be a member
of "the club".

One thing I noticed, right away, since I had never played one before.

Compared to that TH&C it didn't sound nearly as good.

Not to be too swayed, I pressed onward, and eventually learned to like it.

Within the next couple of years, after, I had some encounters with VIs that
played much better than mine, a SBA that amazed me at how worse it was
than my VI, a The Martin tenor that was outstanding, and a Conn Chu that
was a tonal revelation .

By then it was 1993, and I still didn't have the benefit(?) of gathering info
from the internet to confound me .

I didn't have an opportunity to start playing other makes again until 1997,
when I bought a 1952 10M and then shortly after, a 1940 10M; both from
the local newspapers - I'd already lost both the VI, and sadly, the TH&C in
1995 during a personal crisis(see the Jason DuMars thread in marketplace..)

So, I was enjoying my first experiences, now, w/ 10M's, but was already
wanting to get a VI, again once my finances were better.

Before this happened, I tried some vintage Keilwerths that were great,
another SBA that, again, left me nonplussed, and then a beastly 30M that
really turned me around.:shock:

I kept the 30M, sold the SBA, and shortly after, found a 148,000 VI.

Between the 2 - 30M and VI I was leaning toward the Conn, as it was occuring
to me that there was something very compelling about the Conn tone vs Selmer.

The 10Ms had been already sold at this time.

Around 2001-ish I got a pair of Super 20s(alto and tenor) from Charles Fail
in Marietta, GA.

Like the 2 SBA tenors I'd tried, the Super 20 tenor was the same serial no.
as one I'd tried, years before . When I'd tried a Super 20 previously, it
didn't impress me - I was too enamored with my VI, and I wasn't able to get
a good sound from the King, anyway.

This time around, the sound floored me. It was an early 50s full pearl S20.

I could definitely see the appeal that this tenor had to Johnny Griffin,Wardell Gray,
and Yusef Lateef.

I could easily, pull those tones from it(couldn't do it on that VI)

It was like a Conn but had a bit lighter/edgier thing on tap but still with
a resonant, full-bodied, component to the tone that was magical.

I'd also come to the conclusion that the American horns all had superior
palm key response compared to a Selmer, and couldn't live without that.

I was beginning to amass a small collection of tenors around this time- at it's
most insane[for me] 10 was the exact number.

2 VIs, 2 Keilwerths,3 Conns, 1 S-20, 2 of the Borgani Jubilees.

I hadn't planned on a collection but I found I couldn't decide which direction
to settle into.

I also had played a series 1 Buescher Aristo. that was sooo sweet, but I
couldn't buy it by the time, and hope to stay married .:cry:

The long and short(short?? yeah riiiiiiight ...) of it is :

All of these makes/models are truly worthy contenders.

You can get lost in the choices, as each has a compelling voice.

Each worthy of your consideration. :)

[Balladeer]

Tryptykon - Thank you for sharing your experiences. What a great read and a rich set of tenor experiences.

[Grumps]

This is the part I liked:
... and a Conn Chu that
was a tonal revelation...
... having had a very similar experience.

[ted]

Many of us get locked into horns as students. I did. Selmers were my world. I was too loyal for my own good. I wouldn't even look at another brand. When I started being curious about other horns the selmers always won out. Reality or mind control? Who knows. But I own a MkVI (played it for 30 years) a Balanced Action and SBA but now I play a 10M, and it ROCKS. The more things change..................

[58tenor]

"You can get lost in the choices, as each has a compelling voice.

Each worthy of your consideration. :)"

Nice conclusion,there. Nothing wrong with collecting saxes. I wish I had time to do it. Collecting has little to do with playing music,though. I met a local guy through an eBay MP purchase. He has an astounding sax collection. It's like a museum of every imporatant saxophone ever made. You name an exotic vintage or modern horn and he's got it! All displayed nicely,too. It just was incredible and I could get lost in there for years. All pitches,all brands,all eras. Every horn in pristine shape.

I've had 5 saxes in my life and still haven't figured out how to play yet.

[jvsax]

No doubt the general popularity of the Selmer horns was due in part to the large number of heavy players who used them. What I'm noticing now is the same effect with the 10M. Joe Lovano was the first guy I noticed using one in recent times, and then Gonz, and then a lot of other players started using them. All of sudden players are discovering the 10M, which has been around for decades! But it took a couple of name brand players to get people to take this horn seriously.

[Swingtone]

I agree, great post, Tryptycon.

[Tryptykon]

No doubt the general popularity of the Selmer horns was due in part to the large number of heavy players who used them. What I'm noticing now is the same effect with the 10M. Joe Lovano was the first guy I noticed using one in recent times, and then Gonz, and then a lot of other players started using them. All of sudden players are discovering the 10M, which has been around for decades! But it took a couple of name brand players to get people to take this horn seriously.

I was looking at some of my older Downbeat magazines recently from the
early 90s..

One issue Joe Lovano was talking about using a Chu Berry and enjoying the
difference in sound compared to his Balanced Action.

In another issue Josh Redman was talking about a Gold Chu Berry tenor he
had just bought from Bob Ackerman that he was hoping to, eventually, switch
over to from the 86,000 series MK VI he was playing at that time(1992..).

It doesn't appear he ever did switch to Conn - but he did mention Joe Lovano
'turning him on to Conns'. Josh ended up going to a SBA, as it seems other
guys started to do(Seamus Blake,Chris Potter,Chris Cheek,Mark Turner).

As was mentioned, Jerry Bergonzi goes back and forth.(Selmer <<-->> Conn)

Charles Lloyd is a player who has always stayed with his pair of Gold-plated
Chu tenors; and definitely got my attention with his 60's work when I first
started.

Hamiett Bluiett switched from Selmer baritone to Conn and hasn't looked back.

Mark Shim went from a 10M further back to a Tranny Chu.

Again, I really feel that there is no best, overall - that's just my personal conclusion.

The thing that I found most amazing in that period of experiencing non-Selmer; looking into Conn, Martin, Buescher, and King, was how each manufacturer had
their own view of what a saxophone should sound like.

Very distinct sounds and designs, indeed .

I actually, for a significant period, lost all appreciation for the Selmer sound;
which really surprised me, since it happened totally unintentionally.

But I've come to understand what the various makes basic personalities are,
and now find them all valid and unique.