for those who have liebman's "developing your personal.

[darryl]

i have this book and have been reading it, and i have a question about the lower lip. here's the exerpts that confuse me.

section 1
"High note position: More of the reed tip vibrates as the bottom lip rolls away from the tip of the reed."

"Low note position: Less of the reed vibrates asthe bottom lip moves towards the tip of the reed" pg. 8
section 2
"for high notes beginning around high B or Bb (above the staff), the lip must gradually increase the amount of reed uncovered by rolling away from the edge of the reed"

"For low notes, the lip must cover more reed by moving towards the reed's edge and away from the lip's outer rim" pg. 30

after reading it many times, it sounds like in the first part, he's saying to put cover more of the reed w/the bottom lip for HIGH NOTES. however, in the 2nd part, he says to increase the amount UNCOVERED so take more lip off....i'm confused, could someone please explain this rolling the lower lip for high/low notes to me please?

thanks in advance! :D

[danny_tb]

It sounds to me like he's putting his own findings (ie: what works best for him) forward as dogma (and, yes, it does sound a bit confusing).

Basically, do what works for you. For me, it's keeping the lip position fairly constant, but increasing the lip pressure slightly as I go up the horn (but only if it's needed). For you, it might be something else.

For what it's worth, I personally don't like Liebman, Aebersold, and co. To me, their ideas are often (but not always) illogical and seemingly opposite to what works the best.

I believe that there are far better people to learn from than Liebman and co: Larry Teal ("The art of saxophone playing"), and Jimmy Dorsey (I've forgotten the name of the method book he wrote, but it is better than most that I've ever come across as far as technique is concerned, and the approach to improvising that it teaches makes improvising much more simple than anything Liebman & co have ever done).

Anyway, as I said, do what works best for you.

[Fish]

I think Liebman is right - his terminology is just a bit confusing. You need more vibration in the higher end so the lip needs to "roll" away from the tip of the reed. It's just the opposite on the low end. Too much vibration leads to warbles and out of control low register so you need to "cover" a bit more of the reed by "rolling" the lip toward the reed tip. Does that make sense? Fish

[Ritchie]

Both sections say the same: Let more reed vibrate for higher notes, less for lower. This does not sound logical, because you associate a longer vibrating reed with the lower frequencies, but I think the point is you dampen more of the higher frequencies if you move your lip to the tip and cover the reed. Taken to the extreme, you will produce a subtone. According to my experience, the described changes should be very subtle.

To danny_tb: What you suggest, putting more pressure on the reed for higher notes, will cause a sharp high register. This is something you certainly want to avoid!

[Anonymous]

What Ritchie said!

[Tears June]

For me, if want to get better sound on the low notes, I will move my low lip a little bit down to the MP. In this case, the reed can get more vibration.

For high note, my know lip just in normal position. or you can say slightly move up to the MP compare with low note.

:cry:

[Toni Linder]

The Liebman text is rather confusing. I would second what Ritchie says: More reed for higher notes, less reed vor lower notes. At least that's what I remember from looking at a video with Joe Allard, Liebman's teacher, presenting this concept.

[baga]

Both quotes do not contradict each other. I do not really use this concept for myself, even though I have the book and found Liebman's concepts useful.
What helped me really were exercises: practicing ppp with no staccato and being even with the beat and intonationally correct (by this I mean ...recording studio quality) -- both extremes: lows for preciseness and highs for intonation. This really helped.
Liebman's a good guy, I've seen him live, this guy really cooks. His albums are different, kinda hard to grasp for me and complicated, but I've seen him in a normal jazz mainstream setting, and this guy is a tremendous player.
Both books -- Liebman's and Teal's really complement each other. Loads of info and really condensed, no babbling. You just have to dig into it.
Hope it helped.

[danny_tb]

To danny_tb: What you suggest, putting more pressure on the reed for higher notes, will cause a sharp high register. This is something you certainly want to avoid!

Because I have a large chamber mouthpiece (flattens the higher notes more than the lower ones), it has the effect of evening out everything - at least in my case it does. :)
However, I do have to admit that the difference between the high notes and the middle notes isn't all that much. The larger difference is between the middle notes and the low notes (I haven't quite got my facing right - time to go back to the tools again).

[Ritchie]

danny_tb, I am not quite sure that this will really work. Have you checked your mouthpiece position for the correct placement via matching the first overtone of low Bb, B and C to the normal fingerings of middle Bb, B and C? If the middle notes are flat compared to the overtones of the low notes, you must push your mouthpiece in and relax your embouchure to play in tune over the entire range of the saxophone. I am wondering, are your palm key notes still in tune when you place the mouthpiece on this spot where the saxophone scale is most in tune with itself?

I like big chambered mouthpieces, too, and I try to work with voicings (throat volume and air speed) while keeping the embouchure pressure as constant as possible.

[danny_tb]

Have you checked your mouthpiece position for the correct placement via matching the first overtone of low Bb, B and C to the normal fingerings of middle Bb, B and C?

I've checked each and every note on the horn against an electronic tuner. Although some notes are slightly sharp or flat, others right next to them are in perfect tune. I've set my horn up to minimise the variability as much as possible, but alas, it's a Weltklang, so I have to live with a certain amount of tuning by lip. I've found that the variability of my horn makes more difference with my set-up than having a large chambered mouthpiece does. Of course, that isn't to say it wouldn't be the opposite for other horns.

However, I do admit that the amount that my embouchure tightens up as I go up the horn isn't much, but it's still there very slightly (I'm talking about quite fine changes in embouchure, except where I have to go for bell-notes, where changing my embouchure seems to make the most difference to playability). :)

[ronaldodn]

Baga Says
Both quotes do not contradict each other. I do not really use this concept for myself, even though I have the book and found Liebman's concepts useful.
What helped me really were exercises: practicing ppp with no staccato and being even with the beat and intonationally correct (by this I mean ...recording studio quality) -- both extremes: lows for preciseness and highs for intonation. This really helped.
Liebman's a good guy, I've seen him live, this guy really cooks. His albums are different, kinda hard to grasp for me and complicated, but I've seen him in a normal jazz mainstream setting, and this guy is a tremendous player.
Both books -- Liebman's and Teal's really complement each other. Loads of info and really condensed, no babbling. You just have to dig into it.
Hope it helped.

Baga what the name of the books you say in your reply ( Liebman´s and Teal´s)

Tks

Ronaldo

[benjamin1979]

i used to try his embouchure b4. just not suitable for me and lead me to sore lip and big intonation problem.

however i found paul c article more suitable for me.

[JL]

Based on my own experience, I'd say Leibman's got this exactly right. Much as I try to maintain a consistent embouchure throughout the range of the horn, I find on higher notes, especially altissimo, I pull my lip back ever so slightly to allow the reed to respond. This is a very subtle lip movement. Most of the change happens in the throat when playing high vs low notes.