noelpaz
07-27-2003, 06:38 AM
Hi all,
Pete from saxpics.com thinks this is a Kohlert Keilwerth mystery horn or some Czech horn. He thinks it is a 50's to 60's horn. I like this horn, it has nice dark sound and play's well for me. Is is not a buffet or Mark VI - but it plays well. I've have a web page http://mywebpages.comcast.net/noelpaz/whatsaxisthis.html with pictures of this sax. If you can identify what horn this is let me know. By the way there is a serial (I just found it behind the octave lever or neck receiver -- it is 124
Noel
This is what he had to say : First e-mail
It's not too old for a Japanese knockoff -- I'm not saying it is, I'm just saying it's not old enough.
First, let me say that I haven't seen another horn exactly like this. Here's some opinions:
* The overall design looks 1950's, probably mid to late.
* Heavy horn generally = German. I'd say the horn looks more like a Kohlert 57 than an Amati. Additionally, 1950's Amatis started to cheapen considerably from the original Keilwerth design.
* A lot of people describe Kohlerts as playing and sounding like a Mark VI, even though they have considerably different keywork.
* There were a lot of little German companies that were amalgamated into Weltklang (and then VMI). I've checked out a few of these horns and they really don't look like what you have.
* Most German horns will say someplace on the horn "made in Germany" or "made in DDR", etc. I find it interesting that there's no country of origin on the horn. Generally, at that time, at least, the only country that never labeled their horns with a country of origin was Italy. (Indeed, if I's really true that some Buffet Evettes were made in Italy, this horn looks most like one of those, minus the bell to body brace and the characteristics of "heavy" and "plays well".)
* I can't tell from the pictures -- does the horn have rolled tone holes? If it does, I think I'll settle on calling it a Kohlert and leave it at that.
* The keywork does confuse me a bit, especially the G# table, which looks a lot like a Buffet. Additionally, the keyguard and bell-to-body brace doesn't look exactly like a Kohlert.
So, final opinions: 1955-ish Kohlert or stencil, as far as I can tell. If I were a repairman that worked on Kohlerts often, I might be able to tell specifically. Unfortunately, there aren't many that have.
Second email
I actually didn't listen to the soundbytes. This is mainly because, as a "taste test" it's virtually impossible to determine who manufacturers a horn from the sound it makes. However, if you play a Mark VI next to, say, an Antigua Winds (using the same mouthpiece and reed) and ask me which is the VI, I can tell the difference because the VI is darker.
"Stolen" is always a possibility, but you generally would have scratched off serial numbers or some such. "Custom" may also be a possibility, but I tend to doubt that this is some one-of-a-kind prototype that you have. Why? Well, prototypes are generally not engraved with anything, nor do they have pearl key touches, lacquer, etc. Now, horns that are intended as showpieces have all of those features (compare the King Super 21 -- a horn that was going to be released -- to the King curved sopranino).
When I was talking about people comparing the Kohlerts to the Selmers, what these folks are essentially saying is, "This horn can easily be considered one of the best in the world". The definition of "best" is highly subjective. In my opinion, the best horn is the one that offers the best balance of tone, intonation, keywork and price, but most people just say "the Selmer Mark VI is the best".
Keywork is also an interesting thing. Most people agree that the keywork as implemented on the Selmer Balanced Action and later is the best design. This doesn't mean, though, that I'm incorrect in saying that a Conn 28M has better keywork or that the Buffet S1 isn't superior. Lots of folks also think that the Buescher 400 "Top Hat" G# cluster is by far the best ever produced (and I think they're nuts).
Anyhow, Kohlert used to be Czech and then moved to Germany, so if you call the horn a Kohlert stencil, you could cover two countries with one shot! :)
Finally, remember: what you consider a quality issue may be either a supposed design feature or is the limit of the manufacturing process of the time.
Take care!
Pete
Pete from saxpics.com thinks this is a Kohlert Keilwerth mystery horn or some Czech horn. He thinks it is a 50's to 60's horn. I like this horn, it has nice dark sound and play's well for me. Is is not a buffet or Mark VI - but it plays well. I've have a web page http://mywebpages.comcast.net/noelpaz/whatsaxisthis.html with pictures of this sax. If you can identify what horn this is let me know. By the way there is a serial (I just found it behind the octave lever or neck receiver -- it is 124
Noel
This is what he had to say : First e-mail
It's not too old for a Japanese knockoff -- I'm not saying it is, I'm just saying it's not old enough.
First, let me say that I haven't seen another horn exactly like this. Here's some opinions:
* The overall design looks 1950's, probably mid to late.
* Heavy horn generally = German. I'd say the horn looks more like a Kohlert 57 than an Amati. Additionally, 1950's Amatis started to cheapen considerably from the original Keilwerth design.
* A lot of people describe Kohlerts as playing and sounding like a Mark VI, even though they have considerably different keywork.
* There were a lot of little German companies that were amalgamated into Weltklang (and then VMI). I've checked out a few of these horns and they really don't look like what you have.
* Most German horns will say someplace on the horn "made in Germany" or "made in DDR", etc. I find it interesting that there's no country of origin on the horn. Generally, at that time, at least, the only country that never labeled their horns with a country of origin was Italy. (Indeed, if I's really true that some Buffet Evettes were made in Italy, this horn looks most like one of those, minus the bell to body brace and the characteristics of "heavy" and "plays well".)
* I can't tell from the pictures -- does the horn have rolled tone holes? If it does, I think I'll settle on calling it a Kohlert and leave it at that.
* The keywork does confuse me a bit, especially the G# table, which looks a lot like a Buffet. Additionally, the keyguard and bell-to-body brace doesn't look exactly like a Kohlert.
So, final opinions: 1955-ish Kohlert or stencil, as far as I can tell. If I were a repairman that worked on Kohlerts often, I might be able to tell specifically. Unfortunately, there aren't many that have.
Second email
I actually didn't listen to the soundbytes. This is mainly because, as a "taste test" it's virtually impossible to determine who manufacturers a horn from the sound it makes. However, if you play a Mark VI next to, say, an Antigua Winds (using the same mouthpiece and reed) and ask me which is the VI, I can tell the difference because the VI is darker.
"Stolen" is always a possibility, but you generally would have scratched off serial numbers or some such. "Custom" may also be a possibility, but I tend to doubt that this is some one-of-a-kind prototype that you have. Why? Well, prototypes are generally not engraved with anything, nor do they have pearl key touches, lacquer, etc. Now, horns that are intended as showpieces have all of those features (compare the King Super 21 -- a horn that was going to be released -- to the King curved sopranino).
When I was talking about people comparing the Kohlerts to the Selmers, what these folks are essentially saying is, "This horn can easily be considered one of the best in the world". The definition of "best" is highly subjective. In my opinion, the best horn is the one that offers the best balance of tone, intonation, keywork and price, but most people just say "the Selmer Mark VI is the best".
Keywork is also an interesting thing. Most people agree that the keywork as implemented on the Selmer Balanced Action and later is the best design. This doesn't mean, though, that I'm incorrect in saying that a Conn 28M has better keywork or that the Buffet S1 isn't superior. Lots of folks also think that the Buescher 400 "Top Hat" G# cluster is by far the best ever produced (and I think they're nuts).
Anyhow, Kohlert used to be Czech and then moved to Germany, so if you call the horn a Kohlert stencil, you could cover two countries with one shot! :)
Finally, remember: what you consider a quality issue may be either a supposed design feature or is the limit of the manufacturing process of the time.
Take care!
Pete