the Key to unlock the door to knowledge...

[Metro Gnome]

Hi all,

I could use a little assistance in deciphering keys….

I’ve heard about Farther Christmas Going Downstairs Backwards; which is clearly a synonym for F, C, G, D, B and this in turn is the clue to the key register???

But how, when I look at a score, do I determine which key it’s in and perhaps, (excuse my ignorance) more importantly, why is it important?

When all is said and done, there is a different note on the staff for each note the sax (tenor in my case) can play and as such, I don’t have the range of a piano (with all those buttons to press :wink: ) So I’m guessing that on the sax, it’s not that important…?


:arrow: Also in the same breath…(no pun intended) how do I determine the speed (bpm) I should play at? Okay, I see at the beginning of the staff the annotation of 2/4 or 4/4 etc, but that tells me (unless I’m greatly mistaken) the number of beats in the bar and the value of the length of each beat thus a time signature of 4/4 is 4 (top number) beats in the bar and 4 (bottom number) denotes for crotchets in this case in the beat.

Okay I can get my head round that, but how long is a crotchet? What do I mean? Okay, if a semibreve is one (or a whole note) then a crotchet is 25% (1/4) of that. But how long is a whole note, so I can figure what a quarter of one is? When I look at a metronome, I see it divided into bpm 60, 132, etc, etc.. How from looking at the time signature on the stave do I work out what to set the metronome to given that two pieces with 4/4 time “Take the A Train” and “The sound of Silence” are played at (or at lest I think they are :?: ) somewhat different speeds (bpm)

Thanks in advance – I’m one confused dude on these points…

PS: Please try keep explanations real simple, As you’ve guessed, I don’t have a detailed understanding of music… :roll:

[MS]

From a basic theory standpoint, it's just as easy to remember the order of sharps and flats.
Sharps: F, C, G, D A, E, B
Flats: B, E, A, D, G,C,

You have to remember thatkey of C has no sharps or flats, and key of F has one flat.

Beyond that the name of the flat keys is the next to last flat in the key signature (see order of flats above): ie....four flats is the key of Eb, two flats is the key of Bb, etc.

For sharp keys, the name of the key is 1/2 step higher than the last sharp (as listed in the order of sharps above). If you have two sharps, the last in the order of sharps if C#, go 1/2 step higher and you have the key of D. If you have four sharps, go 1/2 step higher than the fourth sharp and you have the key of E.

THis is basic knowledge that will fall into place over a period of time. If you play in an emsemble or concert band, and the conductor choses a scale to use for group warm up, you will have learned by practicing on your own the scale to play.

If you play in a jazz combo, someone may call up a tune and identify a key to play the song in. It's helpful to know which notes need to be sharped of flated. Again this is learnable over a period of time.

The length of a crotchet is determined by several possible things, but once you choose a tempo, it will be one full count of that tempo. There may be a metronome marking at the beginning of the song. Something like: MM=136; or written out quaver=136. If no metronome mark, there may be musical words that may indicate tempo and/or style. For classic music, words such as: Allegro (fast), Andante (modt slow walking tempo), Moderato (medium speed). For Jazz songs, words that you may find might be: Swing, Blues, Latin, Rock, Ballad, ets..

If you are just beginning your study of music, you will learn most of these things along the way. For most practice sessions, it is helpful to establish a steady metronome tempo for a piece of music that gives you time to look ahead a note or two while playing steady If the piece says: med swing, start out at a tempo that you can play the notes on time and increase the metronome one notch each day or couple of days until you achieve the indicated speed.

So when practicing on your own, you decide and set the metronome speed for the crochet. When playing in a band, the leader will set the speed of the crochet. Once the crochet speed is set, the tempo of the other note types will be multiples or divisions of that steady beat/tempo. Good luck and have fun.

[jazzbluescat]

whoops(!)

[jazzbluescat]

Hi all,

.......Okay I can get my head round that, but how long is a crotchet? What do I mean? Okay, if a semibreve is one (or a whole note) then a crotchet is 25% (1/4) of that. But how long is a whole note, so I can figure what a quarter of one is? When I look at a metronome, I see it divided into bpm 60, 132, etc, etc.. How from looking at the time signature on the stave do I work out what to set the metronome to given that two pieces with 4/4 time “Take the A Train” and “The sound of Silence” are played at (or at lest I think they are :?: ) somewhat different speeds (bpm)
Thanks in advance – I’m one confused dude on these points…
PS: Please try keep explanations real simple, As you’ve guessed, I don’t have a detailed understanding of music… :roll:


Not to sound flipant, using your example, a whole would be 4x a crotchet.
[Can we say crotchet. :twisted: ] The tempo has nothing to do with note values.
As far as getting "correct" tempi, I can only suggest listening to some recordings of the tunes you have in mind, to get started.

[Metro Gnome]

K, let me read this back to you, see if I’ve got it…

The Key:

The Flats

I look at the key signature at the beginning of the stave and see (in this case the tune: If you Leave me now) four flats arranged from left to right: Bb, Eb, Ab, Db (this fits nicely with the arrangement MS has kindly placed above…

So the last flat is an Db so the key is Db? – is that right??
You say “the name of the flat keys is the next to last flat in the key signature” but in your layout (BEADGC) the next to last is (four flats) is an Ab – sorry, I’m maybe being really dense, but I’m not getting a handle on the flats… could I ask you try again for me??

The Sharps

Take the tune, Mull of Kintyre, it has in the signature two sharps #F & #C ½ step higher than the last gives me a key of D natural – yes? (I think I might have this one) or is it C# ??

I do understand from your examples why this is important – got that much at least :lol:

Tempo
Mmm this ones a bit tougher.. I understand that all things musical are not necessarily scientific as such; the length of any given value of note may vary depending upon the mood or the interpretation. Thus (silly example) if I decided for my rendition of Take the A Train, that a crotchet had a length of 1 second, then as long as the other notes were of equal proportion, I’d be playing correctly – However, I recognise that this might be a bit painful to listen to :x so might want to make the value 0.46 sec as this would give me 132 bpm However, it’s tough for mere mortals to be so precise with out timing so given that beauty is in the ‘ear’ of the beholder, somewhere around about that time period would be close enough as so long as we all played the respective notes to a comparable length, that in turn, sounds nice when assembled in a pattern.

Appreciate all of the guidance shown to date. :)

My teach has asked I learn the tune “If you Leave Me Now” (sig above) for which, he has written out a practice scale for me of Ab, Bb, C, Db, Eb, F, G, Ab
Am I correct in thinking that I have a practice scale of Eb (if the tune is in a key of Eb) or Ab?? (because that’s the last flat on the scale)
:roll:

[Billy The Fish]

So the last flat is an Db so the key is Db? – is that right??
You say “the name of the flat keys is the next to last flat in the key signature” but in your layout (BEADGC) the next to last is (four flats) is an Ab – sorry, I’m maybe being really dense, but I’m not getting a handle on the flats… could I ask you try again for me??


The first bit is wrong, the last bit is right. Read back the above, and you will see the inconsistency. As MS explained, the next to last flat denotes the key, so is Ab in the example you use above, not Db which is the last flat

Another way of thinking of it, is to remember that the keys built up in the same way as the number of flats (i.e. B, E, A, D, G ) but starts one step behind in the cycle, on F. The key of F has one flat (and is the odd one out on the series because all the the other keys with flats are "flat keys", eg. Bb, Eb, Ab etc).

So:

Key of F = Bb
Key of Bb = Bb, Eb
Key of Eb = Bb, Eb, Ab
Key of Ab = Bb, Eb, Ab, Db
Key of Db = Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb
Key Of Gb = Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb
Key of Cb = Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb, Fb

Look at the above series ane look for the pattern. Think of it as a circle with F-B-E-A-D-G-C. This shows the order in which the keys build up, with F having one flat, B two flats etc. The order in which the flats build up is the same but starts the sequence (circle) on B and ends on F. You will also visibly see MS's example of how to work out the key. The next to last flat in each of the above keys is the name of the key (except for F which doesn't have a next to last flat !).

It may help to remember the sequence of flat keys, from 1 flat to 7 flats, using a mnemonic. I use "Fat Blokes Eat All Day, Greedy Chaps !". You can use the same phrase to remember the order in which the flats build up just by starting the mnemonic with "Blokes". Just remember it is a circle, so add the "F(at)" on the end.

Take the tune, Mull of Kintyre, it has in the signature two sharps #F & #C ½ step higher than the last gives me a key of D natural – yes? (I think I might have this one) or is it C# ??

Correct, two sharps gives you the key of D. Works will all keys containing sharps (i.e. G, D, A, E, B, F#, C#). G has 1 sharp, F#. Half a step up confirms this as it is a G. A sharp has 3 sharps, F#, C#, G#. Half a step up from G# confirms this as it is an A.

As for Tempo, the best thing to do is not to overthink it. If you are playing with others, someone will give you a count 1-2-3-4 (in 4/4 time), which gives you the value of each quarter note (crotchet). If you are playing on your own, let your ear be your guide. If you are working from sheet music which doesn't denote a tempo, look for other guides to the tempo. There may be "classical" tempo indications such as Slow/Slowly (try 60-108 bpm and see what sounds best), Moderate/Medium (try 108-120), Medium/Fast ((120-168), Fast (168+). Those are only rough indications based upon the following classical tempos:

Largo = 40-60 bpm
Larghetto = 60-66 bpm
Adagio = 66-76 bpm
Andante = 76-108 bpm
Moderato = 108-120 bpm
Allegro = 120-168 bpm
Presto = 168-200 bpm
Prestissimo = 200 bpm +

If your sheet music has no indication of tempo, just try it at around 112bpm (somewhere in the "moderate" range) and see how it feels. Raise or lower the tempo as appropriate.

My teach has asked I learn the tune “If you Leave Me Now” (sig above) for which, he has written out a practice scale for me of Ab, Bb, C, Db, Eb, F, G, Ab
Am I correct in thinking that I have a practice scale of Eb (if the tune is in a key of Eb) or Ab?? (because that’s the last flat on the scale)


You can now go to the sequence of flat keys I set out above to find out the key. Remember, it is the next to last flat you are looking for, not the last one. So, no it is not in Eb (which is trhe second flat)...............the next to last flat is Ab, so it is in Ab. Remember, "next to last" relates to the order in which the flats build (Bb-Eb-Ab-Db), not the alphabetical oder (Ab-Bb-Db-Eb)

Hope this helps :D

Billy The Fish

[Metro Gnome]

Okay Gr81 I think I have it now...

I was also looking at this:
http://www.musictheory.net/load.php?id=24
but I needed just that extra bit of detail to get me over the hurdle...
Now, with a bit more thought, I'm going to atack this too:
http://www.musictheory.net/load.php?id=83

Thanks everyone :D

[Wailin']

Find a teacher immediately :lol:

[Metro Gnome]

He-he... Got one & he's very good too, problem is we've been concentrating on playing and not on theory...clearly this needs to be redressed....
still, one hurdle down thanks to the good folks round about...

Now about these major and minor notes....what's that all about then?

[modre]

>>more importantly, why is it important?

being in the correct key is equivilant to speaking a common language with people around you.

why 12?

there are 12 chromatic notes between a full octave. you can start any pattern (scale) anywhere your little heart desires, but the pattern (scale) has exactly the same distance between notes.

...and why is "C" easy and F# complicated'
this is really your question whether you know it or not.

the human voice matches guitar tuning of E naturally...which is why "uneducated" blues guys and rockers seem to reach success without much rocket science behind them, and why jazzers and classical guys have to spend years to break thru.

if E is the natural starting point, why do horn people start in "C"?

this is where it gets thick.
music is sound...starts with sound, and ends with hearing...but somewhere along the line...in europe...folks decided to make it into a science with rules and laws...I'm not sure why they picked the C pitch rather than the human voice pitch of E...but we're stuck with it. Because they picked C, it's the vanilla key with no complications...and by the time it gets to E it's 4 sharps. we're stuck with it. this difference has the hidden benefit of weeding out the riff raff, so the guys who make it over the hurdles and can play in all keys rise to the top like cream on milk.

while it's perfectly OK to master a key or two and be happy with that, you will only be hugely successful when you are fluent and broader in ability....and can function adequately in all keys.

the better guys have mastered the confusion of the technical theory and can spit it out fast enough to make your head spin...but generally they do that by mastering a pattern, then applying that ability to all 12 keys.
this is good.

here's the short cut.

ears and familiarity of the instrument.
you first hear (in your head) what you want to do, then your fingers match your thoughts. this applies to both copying stuff someone else plays, as well as original thoughts.

I've heard monsters from both disciplines, and they are both valid...BUT the guys who do the homework late into the night and can communicate it verbally (or sign language) as well as musically are lightyears farther ahead. This is WHY it's an advantage to do all the head banging homework.

here's the other shortcut.
don't think keys.
think intervals.
and think of the chromatic scale as the full range of possibilities...each starting point equally valid...and you place patterns over the possibilities.

I had this all laid out in detail here somewhere ...it's probably gone by now...if someone knows where it is...yell.

keys are essential, but an understanding of intervals is the neccessary first step to full comprehension of the science and technique. saying that the Key of Bb has 2 b's is good, but it's glossing over the fact that the MAJOR SCALE starting on Bb is Bb C D Eb F G A Bb (2- b's)
BECAUSE the MAJOR SCALE is based on the pattern (intervals)
W W H W W W H.
and THIS IS WHY THE KEY OF Bb has 2 b's.

the starting point is understand
1/2 steps (m2nds).
whole steps M 2nds)
m3rds
M3
4ths
+4ths (b5ths)
5ths
+5ths
6ths
b7ths
M7ths
octaves.

from this base of understanding, you can build a ship to get you to the moon...because this is the language and machinery that it's built on.

from there you learn scales (patterns)
then you place those logical patterns over the chromatic scale starting point, and the mystery of keys and everything else will change into comprehension tucked comfortably into the belt.

[JL]

Metro Gnome,
Modre has given the key to the kingdom, here, so to speak. It's hard to say in exactly what order you need to learn all this stuff, but it ultimately comes down to your ear and tone intervals. It also sounds like your teacher is doing the right thing by concentrating on playing the horn. But theory is important, especially if you want to improvise. Here are a couple more tips:

Think KEY, not key signature. Of course you have to understand and know how to read a key signature first, and it's necessary if you are reading music. Beyond that, learn your major scales in all 12 keys until you can easily play any major scale in any key. Eventually you will Know instantly that the "3rd" of a D major scale is F# (you won't have to figure it out, you'll just know it). You'll also know that the "7th" is a C#, and the "5th" is an A, etc. Now you can use these intervals to figure everything else out, as Modre suggests. For example, if in the key of D, you "flat the 3rd and the 7th," making F# an F, and C# a C, you have a minor (Dorian minor) scale. This may not make a lot of sense right now, but it will eventually. Start with the major scales and go from there.

Even when reading music, you want to know what key you're in because it will be easier to play, using the muscle/mind memory you have developed by woodshedding each and every major scale ("key") for hours on end.

Regarding rhythym, in most cases (esp. with blues & jazz), the bass player is playing quarter notes, so that can help you pick up the exact tempo of a piece of music you are listening to. Also the drummer often hits beats "2" and "4" on the cymbal (I'm speaking 4/4 time now) which can help you hear where the downbeats "1" and "3" are.

[modre]

>>Start with the major scales and go from there.

and not only on your sax, but with your voice as well.
play C D E F G A B C
then play C and sing the rest
then play it on sax, then sing it over and over.
...and be precise about intonation

raise everything up 1/2 step:

play C# D# E# F# G# A# B# C#
play C# then sing the rest

it's important to grasp the Major scale sound in your ear...the starting note doesn't matter...you can hear a car backfire, hum the note and build a Major scale off if without fussing with hardware/paper/ect...
GRASP THE CONCEPT.

notice the concept is easier to grasp than seeing all those # hurdles antagonizing you. this is what stymies most folks. the written science notation chamoflages the simple concept. the trick is to be familiar with all the side keys and learn the finger patterns.

patterns over possibilities.

at some point you'll hear the break in "Along Came Jones" by the Coasters and say "That's a dim...I recognize the sound pattern"

or "Here Comes The Bride" and say "That's a 4th interval.

a baby learns language by hearing and repeating...the science comes long after he/she can articulately throw a temper tantrum and dictate policy in a restaurant. notice the baby is fully functional in the art of language before he/she has to worry about dangling participles...eh?

[steve]

Great information gentlemen. At the risk of really muddying the waters: And then....and then....(with apologies to the Coasters)...along comes "concert" vs. "horn". I am one of those unwashed that grew up playing rock and roll and the blues in bands that had no charts. Tenor saxophone music is written for a B-flat instrument...so the music you have before you is written one full tone up from the piano's music, which is written for a "C" instrument. The horn's "D" is concert "C". To compensate for this, I "think" concert...so if a tune is in B-flat concert I respond by playing in horn "C" on the tenor without much thought. This helps if I'm sitting in somewhere and the concert key is called out without the benefit of music. My point, if there is one, is that if you ever want to gig with groups that don't have charts, have your instructor introduce you to transposition when you are ready.

[Andy Mann]

[quote="Metro Gnome"]Hi all,

I could use a little assistance in deciphering keys….

I’ve heard about Farther Christmas Going Downstairs Backwards; which is clearly a synonym for F, C, G, D, B and this in turn is the clue to the key register???

Hi Geezer, the easiest way to work out key signatures is to apply a few simple rules....

Firstly, a good acronym for remembering the order of sharps as flats is as follows (its really neat this one cos it works forwards for sharps and backwards for flats) ok, for sharps try to remember...

Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle (FCGDAEB)

and for flats

Battle Ends And Down Goes Charles Father (BEADGCF)

ok so far? good.

Everyone will tell you to look at the number of sharps in the stave before the notes start in your music - for the purpose of our example, we'll say that there are two sharp symbols in the first bar with the time signatures et al. Ok, all you have to do, is think of the rhyme i just gave you about Father Charles and his heroic deeds and count along until you reach your number of sharps (in this case just 2) so we know that all F and C notes will be sharp. Then (this is the clever bit) go along the alphabet to the very next letter and thats your key - simple eh!

At the risk of insulting your intelligence, an example - our piece of music has 3 sharp symbols at the beginning, so count along - Father Charles Goes - okay so we know the last sharp is 'G' - ask yourself the next letter after 'G' in the musical alphabet - of course, its 'A' - doddle! The key is A!!

For flats its a bit different but not much. All you do with flats is count along the verse (Battle Ends And Down Goes Charles Father) until you get to your last flat on the music and then take one step back to find your key.

Example, our music has three flats on it, so counting along our rhyme, we go Battle Ends And - ok, so we know our last flat note is 'A' so go back along the rhyme one step to learn that we are in the key of E flat.

If you want all technical jargon about semitones and scales i can bore you to tears with it but for me, this works fine.

Remember, in music, simple is always best - even when improvising to high-speed jazz - you'll learn that the all the best players use very simple structures - Fast? Yes. Complicated? No.

By the way, always ALWAYS look at 'the instructions' (sharps, flats, time signatures etc.) before you start to play - also, most pieces of music will giude you with some of those old Italian terms such as 'largo' or 'festissimo' look anywhere on the web and you're bound to find a listing of Italian translations for music...

You'll find that lots of 'conductors' out stand at the front and scream 'concert pitch is C' and expect everyone to be familiar enough with their instrument to happily transpose on the spot whilst they probably don't know about transposing anyway - thats why its important to understand as much about the theory of music as it is about the instrument itself - its like learning another language - albeit a simple one cos you've only got a few notes to play with.

Best advice, find yourself a top teacher - look for someone who has obviously played for donkey's years - also, look for someone who really knows the theory of music - get as good a teacher as you can afford (although just cos they're expensive doesn't mean they're good) and try to see him twice a month.

Hope this helps.

Andy

[JL]

This is all good stuff. Once again I want to second what Modre said. He made the point I was shooting for, but much more elegantly. So let me expand just a bit.

The fact is a major scale is a major scale, regardless of key. Sure, some keys have a different "color" (?) or "mood" to their sound than others, but the intervals between the notes of an F# major scale and a C major scale are exactly the same. The major third is a major third, whether it's between F# & A#, C & E, Bb & D, etc. A minor third is a minor third (F#-A, C-Eb, Bb-Db, etc.). Minor, melodic minor, dominant, and diminished scales all have a specific formula of tonal intervals that give them a unique sound.

Learn to play and recognize these intevals and sounds (singing is the best way to really internalize these sounds) and you'll be well on your way. Then changing keys or transposing is really no big problem. Of course, you DO have to get it all under your fingers, but that's just a matter of practicing a lot and being patient.

[wiju]

you have Cb key and de B# us well :twisted:

hugs

[JL]

you have Cb key and de B# as well :twisted:


Exactly, lol. Call it what you want, it's the sound that counts.

Cheers

[shortwhite]

Nice job Modre.

W W H W W W H.
and THIS IS WHY THE KEY OF Bb has 2 b's.

This is what I wanted to make sure was covered.

The reason B MAJOR has 5 #'s has nothing to do with theory. A major scale has a certain sound to it. If you want the sound of a major scale starting on Eb then you have to play Bb, Eb and Ab in the scale to get that sound.

The Christmas song "Joy to the World" has a certain sound it (you can also think of it as a certain set of intervals). If you want to play that song starting on an A you must include F# C# and G# to get the proper sound of that song.

To help students with keys scales and intervals I have them play something diatonic (no notes outside the key), let's say "Row Row Your Boat". As they learn a new key (scale) I have them play the tune in that key. Stepwise motion is easiest for younger students to do. As they get better use tunes that have leaps. Try to find tunes they like. For instance that Norah Jones tune "Don't Know Why" is diatonic. (I don't have them do the whole song, just the first 4 or 8 bars).

Anyway....... I think this thread has been very helpful to "younger players". Was nice to watch it unfold. Good job everybody!!!!!!!!!!!

[Metro Gnome]

Thanks everyone.... :D

I think this thread has been very helpful to "younger players".

Erm.......I think there is something you should know..... :oops: :oops: :oops: :lol: :roll: