Am I an idiot or just getting old...

[Konrad]

I saw this kid's practice routine in the "For Beginners" section.

Holy Cow.

My practice routine looks like this:

I run through the major scales, then I pick a scale and review major and minor pentatonics and then I try to learn the minor harmonic and melodic scales... Then I fool around with some blues tunes, and then I'm usually out of time.

Not very impressive, eh? I've noticed that I seem to have a very short term memory. Remembering the flats and sharps in a scale is easy until a few days later, heh, heh.

I'm 37. Have I been eating too much aluminum lately? IOW is Alzheimers setting in?

I have managed to knock down a few tunes from the Blues Masters book. Great book. Great tone. Great songs.

One of these day...

[Billy The Fish]

I am that kid...and I am fast approaching 36 :shock:

I will always be younger than you I guess, so perhaps I am a kid :wink: :twisted:

Billy The Fish (obviously looking young for his age) :D

[Konrad]

Well, there you go...

How do you find the time?

Also, maybe you have a technique to keep the scales in your head. I start going through them, and I don't know why, but I mix up the minor melodic with the harmonic, etc.

K

[MS]

Billie, how long have you been playing guitar and piano? There must be much experience that puts you ahead in the theory/tunes area that is transferable to sax. I admire your determination. :D

[jazzbluescat]

I am that kid...and I am fast approaching 36 :shock:
I will always be younger than you I guess, so perhaps I am a kid :wink: :twisted:
Billy The Fish (obviously looking young for his age) :D

True. But, but you're catching up. :lol:



Konrad,
Maybe you need to slow down a bit, so to speak. E.g. Do one scale a day, and slowly, think of this scale "from different angles"/in different perspectives. Work on internalizing all the information, getting comprehension/make internal connections.

[Billy The Fish]

Billie, how long have you been playing guitar and piano? There must be much experience that puts you ahead in the theory/tunes area that is transferable to sax. I admire your determination. :D

I have been playing the guitar for around 20 years, and piano about 12 years I guess. Indeed, my background helps me out significantly in the theory stakes. I have a good knowledge of scale/chord theory, that's for sure, as well as having developed a reasonable ear.

However, the great challenge for me with the saxophone (and I mean that in a positive way, as I love a challenge), is getting to grips with non-diatonic improvisation (as well as technique of course - never had much call to stick a guitar/piano in my mouth). As a guitarist and pianist, my main genre was rock/pop music - which is mostly diatonic. Even when there is a call to change key, playing guitar is based around "shapes", so a change of key is about as easy as it gets - just move whatever your chords/riffs/licks/scales you were playing up or down a few frets. Also, let's face it - most rock guitar work (particularly solos) are built mainly around just the blues scale. Whilst I did play with most major scale modes in many compositions, most of the mode based solos were in just one key, and often pre-composed :oops: I have always loved jazz, but never really went in that direction with my guitar (right from my teens, the friends I jammed with just wanted to play rock, and as I was a rock fan too, that's what we always did).

Billy The Fish

[Konrad]

jazzblues,

That's what I'm doing.

Oddly, I've been playing the guitar and singing semi-professionally for 20 years. I know the neck of a guitar backwards and forwards, but I never really learned my theory. Mostly I learned shapes and then went from there.

Not the way to go, now that hindsight is indeed 20/20.

Part of my problem is that I don't have much trouble improvising on the sax. Maybe this is from playing guitar, but I have very good memory when it comes to hearing something and repeating the lick. This makes scale work really boring--I tend to start working on a sale and then I get board and start playing something silly like "When the Saints..."

But I think you are right Bluesjazz... Lately I've been working on one key a day and it's beginning to stick in my head better.

But I sure wish I had the time and the disclipine to practice like Billy.

(K, regretting that he didn't start on the sax when he was a kid)

[Joe Jazz]

Konrad,

It's the aluminum chlorhydrate in your anti-perspirant Dude! We'd have been better off sweating all those years! Now we're stuck with CRS!

[frankbiff]

Remembering the flats and sharps in a scale is easy until a few days later, heh, heh

Why bother to remember them, all thats required is to play them. I have trouble remembering them, but I can play any major scale picked at random, they just come out right; its in the ear, just keep playing them. The remembering is improving with practice, when I sight read things in different keys, but when I practice plain scales and chords I do not read them, I play from memory, and if I don't remember, I take the time to figure them out in my head, and don't look them up.

[quote]However, the great challenge for me with the saxophone (and I mean that in a positive way, as I love a challenge), is getting to grips with non-diatonic improvisation [quote]

When I played in rock bands, about 25 years ago, I was very non-diatonic, I usually didnot pay attention to the keys, just found my way around by ear. That became easy with practice, not that many different keys were used.

I'm staring up agian after stoping for about 20 yrs. Played from age 16 to about 30; am 52 now.

Practice routine is:

(for summer)
All major scales / some chords from memory(don't bother with minor or anything else)
Techincal exercises, like Klose etc.
Chord studies or scale studies (Violas books), 1 key a week
Rhythm studies (my own or Violas)
Ear training, i.e. simple tunes starting on all notes.

In the winter/fall/spring I add:
1 or 2 Classical pieces.
Transcribing solos/heads etc.
Long tones, vibrato practice, altissimo stuff.

How do I get the time, don't watch any TV.

[Anji]

Nobody needs to remember the scale by heart.

If you drill it repeatedly before playing a passage in the same key, you're Golden for the duration (until the signature changes)...

"You bastards, you killed Kenny G! What took so long?"

*****
Have a look at guides like Hamelin for etudes and scale studies, you need to go up and down through the key to hit all the odd fingerings. If you "turn" on the same note every time, you won't develope flexibility in your thinking.

[JL]

As to "remembering the sharps and flats," I'm with frankbiff. Although I originally learned them, when I play I don't really think in terms of sharps and flats, I just know the notes in a given key. On occasion at a jam session, I've had someone say "4 sharps," and my response is "just give me the key, man." Part of the problem of thinking sharps and flats (or key signature) is that "accidentals" are very common. So, for example, a blues in C contains many Bb notes, which aren't technically part of the C maj key signature. You'd have to think "one flat" while on the I7 chord, then "two flats" (Bb & Eb) while on the IV chord, etc. Now, this may work for some, but it doesn't work for me. I prefer to think in terms of flatted 3rds, 7ths, raised 4ths, and so on. So, if you're in the process of learning keys, scales, chords, etc., here's an approach that worked pretty well for me; it may or may not work for you:

First learn all the major scales and chords. Then relate everything to those major "keys." The major scales do have to be pretty well-ingrained.

So now when you go to a dominant chord or scale, you just think "flat 7th." For example, take a C major scale and flat the seventh tone (B becomes Bb) and you're there. Then you can tag on other alterations (#4, b9, etc.), all in relation to the original major scale.

When you go to a melodic minor scale, just think "flat 3." Take C major and flat the 3rd. I usually also think "maj 7th," in this case.

Dorian minor, which is very commonly used, is "flat 3rd," "flat 7th." Take that C maj scale and flat the E and B.

And so on. This sounds kind of simplistic, but it does work pretty well. But it is VERY dependent on learning major scales and chords in all 12 keys. So do that first. Another twist is that many scales and chords are derived directly from the major scale (all the modes). So by getting the major scales under your fingers, you have the facility to play a lot of things.

[Konrad]

Thanks bud!

That's about the most accessible explanation I've ever heard.

[alsdiego]

I'm with JL on this one. Start by learning the major scale in all 12 keys. Then "modify" the scales/chords described above to bring in the dorian minor and dominant.

It took me 6 mos. of incredibly hard work to REALLY learn all 12 major, dorian minor, and dominant scales/chords. But once you've done it, learning new scales/sounds is MUCH easier. And to retain it once you've put in all that work, why not use major, minor and dominant scales/chords for technique practice every day? I use the routine suggested in Jamey Aebersold's "red book" (it's free on his web site). It's incredible, because a part of the workout is to play up the scale, then down the chord, then vice versa. If you think that's easy, try it, even if you think you know the chord arpeggios cold. At least for me, it was incredibly difficult at first, because I had learned arpeggios as a "package", up then down, which only only uses "short term" muscle memory (you just played it going up, so your muscles can easily go back down the same way). That's NOT at all the same as starting say, on the 9th and apeggiating downward.

Sorry to ramble on, but my point is this. When people who are into jazz talk about learning scales/chords in all 12 keys, what they really mean is to learn all 12 tonal centers so well that you can play any scale or chord arpeggio in any key, starting anywhere on the scale. You can instantly call out the 3rd, 5th, and 7th of any scale.

Will all this work make you a great jazz player? Of course not. But it does give you a basis for going forward with something more advanced, like George Bouchard's "Intermediate Jazz Improvisation". I'm working on that now, and I think it would have been impossibly frustrating had I not put in the scale/chord work previously. Now, it's going relatively quickly, because I pretty much know where all the notes are in every key.

Can you learn this stuff when you're older? Sure, you just have to really want it. BTW, I'm 60, and more than once I've been in the classic position of "Who am I and where's my car?" :D

Best of luck!

Al

[Konrad]

THanks bud!

What's his website. I've got to check this out.

K

[alsdiego]

Konrad,

Here you go:

http://www.jazzbooks.com/jazzhandbook/Default.htm

Click on "Ten Basic Exercises - TREBLE CLEFF" for the exercises I was describing. BTW, it takes me 15-20 minutes to do all of the exercises in 4 keys. Take careful note of the number of repeats suggested, etc. I do 4 keys a day as part of my daily warmup. That way, I cover each key at least twice a week.

Start SLOWLY, and work your way up gradually. Also, you should be playing all of these exercises from memory and using your ear. The text is only meant to give you an exercise structure, and is not a substitute for learning the scales/chords in all 12 keys.

Hope this helps,

Al

[ssgtjohn]

Hey Alsdiego,
I read your suggestion and I think it's great! I have been playing about two years and I am studing my scales and chord (maj and Min)...your right! It's easier for me if I study the major scales and chord and biuld off of them. You have given great advise!
Thanks,
ssgtjohn

[Paul Ames]

I love it. You guys are babies. I am 71 and have been practicing an Alto for about 5 months. I travel alot so I have to go back and start over a lot. Talk about remembering---I think it comes down to leaning to speak a new language with all the noun and verb variations. I wish I had started at 37 but what the hell if it takes me ten years to learn or not learn I will still be ten year older. Figure it out--you have 34 four years ahead of you compared to where I am. Stop whining

[Paul Ames]

:) I love it. You guys are babies. I am 71 and have been practicing an Alto for about 5 months. I travel alot so I have to go back and start over a lot. Talk about remembering---I think it comes down to leaning to speak a new language with all the noun and verb variations. I wish I had started at 37 but what the hell if it takes me ten years to learn or not learn I will still be ten year older. Figure it out--you have 34 four years ahead of you compared to where I am. Stop whining:)

[SaxxMan]

Yep...count me in with JL and frankbiff...

That's how I learned also...

First the major scales, and then the rest relative to those in terms of which notes are flat for which mode...Maybe that was the "standard" way it was taught back in the 70's...

And like Frankbiff...I spent several years playing in the same rock/blues bands...playing the same songs...in the same easy keys...

So over the last several years I have been working almost exclusively on jazz and blues...and...<sigh>...it's like "school" all over again...

I'm finding that I have to take more practice time and really work on the "basics" again...

My ears AND fingers know what to play...but when I start "thinking" about what I'm playing (or should play)...it gets a little crazy...

For me, when I'm on a gig...sometimes I have weird nights where I'm too much "in my brain"...and when that starts to happen...I just relax and "go deeper" into the groove and just let the notes flow...but the funny thing is that when I do that...I couldn't tell you (intellectually) what I just played - not even the key or anything....but it goes well....:scratch:

I hope this isn't a sign of getting old....:D


Paul...thanks for the inspiration!!

[jrvinson45]

:) I love it. You guys are babies. I am 71 and have been practicing an Alto for about 5 months. I travel alot so I have to go back and start over a lot. Talk about remembering---I think it comes down to leaning to speak a new language with all the noun and verb variations. I wish I had started at 37 but what the hell if it takes me ten years to learn or not learn I will still be ten year older. Figure it out--you have 34 four years ahead of you compared to where I am. Stop whining:)

Of course the best thing about being 71 is that you get to wake up everyday knowing that you get to learn all new stuff and meet all new people.:D

[JL]

For me, when I'm on a gig...sometimes I have weird nights where I'm too much "in my brain"...and when that starts to happen...I just relax and "go deeper" into the groove and just let the notes flow...but the funny thing is that when I do that...I couldn't tell you (intellectually) what I just played - not even the key or anything....but it goes well....:scratch:

Hey, so this thread is back. Very cool, because I think it might help some folks who weren't here the first time around. Anyway, this statement really caught my eye, saxxman. Many, maybe most, of the tunes I play over and over on gigs I can play right through without thinking much about the notes. In fact, if I try to think of all the notes to even a fairly simple head in my head (no pun intended), I find it difficult and sometimes impossible to come up with all the notes unless I get the horn out or sit down at the piano. But then I can play it immediately. I don't know if this is a good thing or not, or a sign of aging, or what, but the point is I can play the tune and then improvise on it (I do know the chords) without giving a lot of thought to what note comes next.

This is kind of analogous to not thinking "four sharps," when in E major. However, in this case I can easily name the major third, G#, or b7th, D, or sixth, C#, etc without having to even think about it. Very strange......

[SaxxMan]

....Many, maybe most, of the tunes I play over and over on gigs I can play right through without thinking much about the notes. In fact, if I try to think of all the notes to even a fairly simple head in my head (no pun intended), I find it difficult and sometimes impossible to come up with all the notes unless I get the horn out or sit down at the piano. But then I can play it immediately. I don't know if this is a good thing or not, or a sign of aging, or what, but the point is I can play the tune and then improvise on it (I do know the chords) without giving a lot of thought to what note comes next.

I know exactly what you mean JL...not sure if it's a sign of getting old or not....;)

But I think it has something to do with playing patterns so much that the mind forgets about the technicality of the theory...and just lets the body do it's thing by memory....and then out-of-context, without the sax in your hands...the brain just doesn't remember as easily...Think "muscle-memory"...


Hey....Have you ever been playing...and then suddenly feel all disassociated...almost panic...because you can't remember how the melody goes...or when the bridge is coming around....OR EVEN WORSE...what song you are supposed to be playing?...:shock:

Just last week, the band played a real fast version of "Oleo"....and after the intro...I merrily launched "Cotton Tail"....until the keyboard player had to tell me I was playing the wrong song....opps....the weird thing is that the trumpet player did the exact same thing...and nobody had even mentioned "Cotton Tail" at all....

<Carl....I need a smiley for the Twilight Zone...:D >

[JL]

Hey....Have you ever been playing...and then suddenly feel all disassociated...almost panic...because you can't remember how the melody goes...or when the bridge is coming around....OR EVEN WORSE...what song you are supposed to be playing?...:shock:

Just last week, the band played a real fast version of "Oleo"....and after the intro...I merrily launched "Cotton Tail"....until the keyboard player had to tell me I was playing the wrong song....opps....the weird thing is that the trumpet player did the exact same thing...and nobody had even mentioned "Cotton Tail" at all....

Oh yeah, I've done that! I've even forgotten what key I'm in and when it's time to go to the V chord or whatever, I might go to the wrong one. It quickly becomes obvious and I wake up in a hurry, that's for sure! Luckily such events are rare. I think they might crop up if I have a shot or two of tequila (which is one reason why I usually don't).

At least Cotton Tail is the same changes as Oleo so everyone probably thought you were quoting it on purpose, lol.

[SaxxMan]

Oh yeah, I've done that! I've even forgotten what key I'm in and when it's time to go to the V chord or whatever, I might go to the wrong one. It quickly becomes obvious and I wake up in a hurry, that's for sure! Luckily such events are rare. I think they might crop up if I have a shot or two of tequila (which is one reason why I usually don't).

At least Cotton Tail is the same changes as Oleo so everyone probably thought you were quoting it on purpose, lol.
You're right...

I don't think the audience noticed anything except the look of embarrassment on mine and the trumpet players faces...we apologized to the band after the song...and everyone laughed - some of them have done it before too.

OK...here's another one...

Have you ever been playing and suddenly start paying too much attention to how the notes sound as they come back to you - either off the walls, or back through the monitor?...Not just hearing...but listening as though it's not you doing the playing....sort of like wondering how the melody/solo is going to go, from an outside point of view, and then start to mess up because you're distracted by listening to your own notes too much? For me...I notice this happened when I was really tired...

I might add, this experience and the one I mentioned earlier are rare for me also...and sometimes have happened in college. That's my "proof" it's not an aging thing....;)