The great disagreements...

[Razzy]

I've seen a few major disagreements as far as embouchure, oral cavity, etc. are concerned when teaching students the "right" way to do things on the sax.

There is the belief that the embouchure should remain exactly the same tension for all registers, specifically, the tension required to get a certain pitch on the mouthpiece and reed alone (A = 880 Hz on alto, etc.). Then of course, the other belief that the embouchure should be changed dependent upon the register of the instrument. Still, only minutely. This usually consists of dropping the jaw in the low register to bring sharp bell tones down to pitch, and tightening with the corners of the mouth in the upper register to support the faster fluctuations of the reed.

Once again, another less-debated but equally confusing disagreement is that which concerns the oral cavity. Many will agree that the throat should remain open and round for all registers. However others will tell you to alter its position and that of the tongue for the altissimo register.

I just wanted to hear what people have to say as regards these issues.

Here's my experience, which consists of about 5 years of playing in school bands, rock bands, etc. and 1 year of doing that plus serious study.

I used to bite until about a month ago, when my embouchure muscles FINALLY began to develop the strength to support the reed in all registers without need for the teeth. Up until that point, I was very frustrated with my limited abilities to practice and time constraints because of fatigued muscles. Anyway, since my breakthrough as far as embouchure goes, my playing has taken leaps and bounds, and I have been opened up to much repertoire and skills that would've otherwise been impossible.

Up until that "point", I dropped my jaw in the lower register to keep the pitch down. I also pinched from the corners in the upper register and really altered my oral cavity to get the notes in tune and steady.

Now, I find that my embouchure is just generally firm in the corners throughout the entire range and doesn't need to adjust in the upper register. My throat stays open and full, whereas it used to sort of "pinch" and the tongue would also form a tunnel to move the air faster. Now this is gone but my tongue does move a bit in the upper register and my limited altissimo range (to B4 consistently) to move the air faster.

So, I used to be really into the malleable embouchure school. But, as I've evolved as a musician and my muscles have developed, some strange things have happened on their own. The embouchure is now stable throughout the range and there only minor shifts in the oral cavity in the upper register, as opposed to the previous major shifts. Still, I find that to get A=880 out of the mouthpiece and reed alone, I have to really overblow... I get more of a sharp Ab naturally :roll:

[Gordon (NZ)]

Yes indeed. strange things happen on their own.

Let's just consider the art of keeping our balance while standing still, or getting our fork into our mouth without skewering our lips.

These are major challenges for a baby, taking a very long time (in a baby's scheme of things) to learn. The skills required are phenomenal.

After the baby has had all this practice, the myriad of minute muscular motions involved for these tasks become coordinated and automatic. As adults we may swear that we are making no on-going muscular adjustments as we stand still, because we are no longer aware of them, and indeed, through practice they have become efficient, hence very, very small.

Applying this to sax playing, it is obvious that the more experienced a player becomes, the less conscious he becomes of the adjustments necessary, and that he does indeed make. I believe that this is what has happened to you.

The person who is perhaps MOST aware of all these adjustments is the double. When I went very quickly to include clarinet in my doubling, I already had many of the necessary skills, so the challenges involving minute adjustments came to face me, thick and fast. I sure was conscious of them!

A good example is the extra breath support needed when slurring between certain notes whose fingerings happen to have the same harmonic basis. Quite quickly, the adjustments became automatic and I started to be unconscious of them, but I am a far better teacher for remembering that they do exist. Students still have to face them until they become automatic.

It is absolutely reasonable to accept that a huge amount of deception goes on in the human brain. Take for example, optical illusions. Our eyes/brain is deceived. It knows it is deceived. It should be capable of making adjustments to stop being deceived. Yet is it still always deceived.

[frankbiff]

I was and still am a user of the relatively open throat; however I find that changes are necessary in the low and high registers primarily due to tone, not pitch. For the bell notes I do not drop the jaw but drop the inside of my mouth, the back of the tonge seem to go down, like HAW. For the top notes the tounge goes up like HEE, but the throat is still open. The middle of the tonge also seems to change a little to alter the pitch.

As far as emoucher, my breakthrough came when I started to put more bottom lip outside the teeth than inside and keeping the corners of the mouth more like a kiss and not a smile; in less than 2 weeks went up 1/2 strength in reeds. Tone became much much better.

Used to bite in my teens but a teacher fixed that by having me use a double emboucher (only top lip on the mpc, no top teech) for a while.

Experiance:
Am now 9 mo into my start-up after a 20yr layoff. Started playing when I was 16 and stopped when I was 30. Also didn't play much during collage. Still using a STM link, but with 2 1/2, used to use 3 1/2. Mostly all basement Jams, R&R and R&B bands both as only horn and as part of a section ( 2 trumpets, Tbone and Tenor/alto/sop sax also hammond org, 1 git , bass, drums and singer BTW no sound man or board!, just a big amp with columns to compete with Marshals and the overiszed behemoth of a lesely the organ player had, I have never seem one that big since, Don't ever recall haveing a problem being heard)

[JL]

It's true that we make many subtle adjustments without being aware of them. Even when changing mouthpieces on the same instrument, I suddenly become conscious of having to adjust to the different mouthpiece.

Playing endurance is one test for a good embouchure. If you play regularly, you should be able to play for several hours without experiencing a sore lower lip or sore muscles. If you can do this night after night and maintain a good tone quality, you probably have a pretty decent embouchure.

[Razzy]

They don't necessarily get sore, just fatigued, after about 2 hours of total playing, not including breaks. The lower lip usually just feels fat after a while and the corners a bit spent. They used to get sore but in the past few weeks they haven't and I've had much more endurance.

[Razzy]

Is it natural to require harder reeds as your embouchure develops? I'm finding recently that all my reeds are feeling too soft, but this strength has always played fine before, and I'm doing nothing differently other than playing more correctly. It's on all saxes that this is occurring.

[hornstar]

YES! and while that's a good sign, it's admittedly a nuisance to have to retool your setup, isn't it? you might want to hang onto the less open mouthpieces in case you ever have a hiatus, and need to start again (or for when you get older ;)

[MusicMedic]

With my students, I sometimes find that a harder reed will solve some of their tone issues with buzzing and the like; and sometimes that harder reed is necessary. As their embouchure improves they find a harder reed will help give them a little resistance and improve the tone.

Now, some will use the harder reed as a means to keep from having control over their instrument. I think a softer reed is more flexible tonally. If one is not capable of controlling this flexibility they might just change their set-up to one that does not all so much flexibility. Before I let my students switch to a harder reed, I like them to have control over the reeds that they are using. Once they have this control (moving their focus from the lips to the mouth and throat) they can make a decision whether it is best to switch or not. Some do, some don't.

[Razzy]

For me it's mostly an economical standpoint. Two weeks ago I bought a box of RSJ 3S, the kind I've been using on alto for about a year, and suddenly find them all to be too soft. I'm not sure if I'm ready to just go out and buy a box of 3M or 3H to test the waters. Other brands of similar strength feel too soft to me as well: Vandoren java 2.5, Hemke 3, etc. and this has happened on all of my saxes within the past few weeks. So I'm pretty sure it's not the reeds themselves running soft.