Suggestions for tenor piece that projects

[deliberate1]

Friends, I am in the market for a new tenor piece. I play a '48 The Martin recently revived by Sarge (kanga pads and the works). My main gig is lead in a big band. I have been playing Ralph Morgan's 3c and 7m. I am very fond of both these pieces outside the big band. They are sweet, melodious, and a joy to play. But in the big band setting, I find myself overblowing, particuarly with solo breaks when the entire band is playing under me. Any suggestions for an easy blowing piece with volume, but with tight intonation and plenty of reach down low and strength up high. Much obliged.

[Gandalfe]

Methinks the band plays too loud.

[Roger Aldridge]

Your experience sounds similar to mine. If you're comfortable with a 7M, I'd suggest switching over to a Morgan 7L. I think that you'll find the L model has a bigger and more vibrant sound than the M. Man, with a 7L on your Martin there will be no stopping you!!!

PS, here's another thing you can try to help give you a big sound and a lot of projection for playing in a big band.... It's a suggestion that Ralph Morgan made to me and I found that it made a big difference. Simply put, Ralph recommends that one take in more of the mouthpiece into the mouth. Look at the mouthpiece from the side with the reed and ligature on. See where the reed separates from the facing curve. This is the ideal point to place your lower lip. What this does is to allow the reed and mouthpiece to work together at an optimal level. The sound really opens up. According to Ralph, this is what the sax guys in the old big bands did to get more sound. Taking more mouthpiece into the mouth also helps to have a greater amount of opening of the oral cavity. Please give it a try.

Roger

[deliberate1]

Roger, I am always obliged for your Morgan advise. Will give the 7L a go. I just love Ralph's pieces. After getting the RM15 (on your suggestion), I stopped looking for another clarinet piece. I have been using a #2 Legere with the tenor 3c. What do you suggest for the 7? I hear you about taking in more piece. Unfortunately, I got a clarinetist's gag reflex. Having 3/4-1" of tenor in my mouth is something that might take a while to get used to. But it does help. I've done it before. Just have to really concentrate on it.

Gandalfe. I will pass on your comments to the band. Perhaps they will listen to you. Fact is, when I am blowing, the rest of the world is making too much noise.
Cheers,
David

[Roger Aldridge]

David,

Legere reed strength is tricky. I have a stash of my favorite cane reeds (Alexander Classique) and dust them off from time to time. On clarinet a #3.5 Classique feels roughly comparable to a #3 Legere Quebec. Then, on tenor a #3 Classique actually feels a bit soft in relation to a #2.5 regular cut Legere.

It seems to me that a #2 Legere would be way too soft for the smaller tip opening of a Morgan 3C. When I tried to get Legere reeds to work on my 3C I was up in the #3.25 range. But, if a #2 works for you then that's what it is. Now, with my 6C mouthpiece a #2.5 Legere feels just right.

I cannot say what Legere strength might work for you on a 7L. Frankly, I'm still stratching my head over using a #2 on a 3C. Normally, you'd use a softer reed with a larger tip opening. I guess you could try a #2 on the 7L and see how it goes. One possibility is not to go with a larger tip opening. That is, perhaps a 6L rather than a 7L might be a better match for you. It's really hard to say. This might be one of those situations where you'll need to do some trial & error in trying different reed strengths and tip openings to find the particular match that feels really good to you.

With respect to taking in more of the mouthpiece, here's a trick that I stumbled upon. I, too, had a difficult time maintaining my embouchure in taking in more of a tenor beak.....as I was primarily an alto player for most of my life. When I first tried to take in more of the mouthpiece beak I experienced two problems: 1.) My embouchure often slipped on the beak and before I knew it I was back with not much mouthpiece; 2.) Embouchure fatigue set in very quickly. Then, one day as I was practicing an intuitive hunch came to me about lifting my front teeth off the beak (just a little bit). I kept my top lip in a normal embouchure position. Ie, not curling it into a "double embouchure". From the outside no one can tell that I'm not using a standard embouchure. However, by lifting my teeth a short distance up from the beak a whole new world opened up. I was able to take in more of the mouthpiece without my embouchure slipping and no more embouchure fatigue. I was back to being able to play as long as I wanted without my chops quickly wearing out. The best part was that my sound became much bigger and stronger....and my sound was pretty big to begin with. Really, this was like a revelation!

Please try lifting your teeth from the beak and see if this helps you to take in more of the tenor mouthpiece. It might seem strange at first. If it doesn't feel right to you after giving it a fair trial then by all means return to your regular embouchure. I use this trick on tenor and bass clarinet. It didn't feel right to me on soprano clarinet. On that instrument I use a standard embouchure with my teeth on the beak....but I take in more of the mouthpiece than what I was taught to do by my clarinet teachers.

I agree 100% with Gandalfe! It can be a natural tendency for big bands to over-play and be too loud. You know, the brass section gets all excited. ha ha ha Your band's director may need to take a firmer hand in getting a better level of control with the band's dynamics. A key concept is that every member of the band needs to LISTEN carefully to everything going on in the music and learn to BALANCE. Very important! This is critical when guys are soloing. The rhythm section and everyone else needs to balance their volume with the soloist. If a soloist is playing on the softer side then the band needs to bring down the volume during the solo and not simply bury the guy. Ya know? We're talking about common sense. Also, a soloist needs to have the freedom to play at different dynamic levels in the course of constructing his solo. He might want to play softer at times in order to build up to a high point with more volume. The band needs to respond to and follow the soloist in exactly the same way as how a rhythm section follows a soloist in a small group. This is one thing that marks the difference between a musically-mature big band and one that simply blasts away for all its worth.

Hope this helps! Please let us know how you come out.

Roger

[Tom Goodrick]

The best I know of for that situation is the Rovner Deep Vee. I have been playing a 7 for nearly two years and like it very much. It has plenty of volume and presence but does not have a high baffle so you can work with it as a normal mouthpiece. It has no "hot spots" where it suddenly pops out as I experienced with a Berg. Unfortunately, the Deep Vee has become pricey. You may be able to get one from Fred Weiner in NY. Otherwise the only place you can buy them is direct from Rovner where they cost about $300.

Recently, I bought a Runyon Custom for my sop. I am thinking about getting one for my tenor as well. If it does the same thing for my tenor, it should give you a bright edge when you want it. But you can learn to control the edge and brightness. The spoiler is ineffective but the base of the spoiler is actually a step baffle that is very effective. Spend some time learning to control it and it should do your job at 1/5 the cost of the Rovner.

[betelsax]

You might try a metal Dukoff Super Power Chamber. PLENTY of volume and projection. And they can, if coaxed, play sweetly:

http://www.dukoff.com/product.html

[Dave dix]

Lawtons are superb if you can find one
Dave

[deliberate1]

Roger, I will give your emboucher suggestion a go. Do you literally remove your top teeth from the piece or simply push it a bit forward, up the beak? Your comments about band volume are well taken. The band is a rehersal band and while it is a joy to play every week, we do lack a bit of subtlety. As for your observations about the brass section - deaf ears. The two band directors comprise half of the bone section.
The Dukoffs and Lawtons - are they metal pieces? I prefer rubber, but would give them a go as long as they are dark. I am not looking for the Brecker/Sanborn sound. Thanks to all.

[deliberate1]

Dave, are there choise openings/facings for the Lawtons?

[Roger Aldridge]

David,

I actually take my top teeth off the mouthpiece beak.

Roger

[Mactenor]

Runyon Quantum made of Delrin. Easy to play, has Edge and effective projection, it can really smoke. I play a piece opened up to #14 by Mojobari. Killer piece.
Best Regards Mactenor

[Bill Mecca]

if you're thinking about the Quantum Mark R has one for sale heree for $55 I think... it used to be mine and it can go from a whisper to a scream.

[Dave dix]

Geoff Lawton made metal and h/rubber mpc's but he died 2 years ago so they are getting rarer. Ebay sometimes has a few for sale and bill lewingtons
Dave

[whaler]

Runyon Quantum made of Delrin. Easy to play, has Edge and effective projection, it can really smoke. I play a piece opened up to #14 by Mojobari. Killer piece.
Best Regards Mactenor
A 14!! You must be the guy that plays sax with Spinal Tap. My diaphram is aching just thinking about it. Do you wear an "Oyster Catcher" when you play?

[Mactenor]

#14 in Runyon pieces is about .120 tip opening. Did we not have this conversation before?
Mactenor

[thesaxman547]

I have a Eugene Reglein mpc that cuts through a big band and can play soft warm ballads with a beautiful singing tone. There are also sound clips of the mpc on there, check it out man: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=007&item=170023269493&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1

[barisaxbeast]

Lawtons are superb if you can find one
Dave

I go along with that.. just so happens I've got 8*b metal that might just be for sale. Never used, bought it 12 months ago as a spare but I'm back to my Link again. These retail over here (UK) for about £230, so I'm looking for at least £200.

[Razzy]

Sounds like you might need something with higher baffle while still retaining a deep core sound. Guardala Crescent and Ackerman Lost Wax high baffle come to mind.

[1saxman]

'According to Ralph, this is what the sax guys in the old big bands did to get more sound. Taking more mouthpiece into the mouth also helps to have a greater amount of opening of the oral cavity.'

That is exactly right. During the '30s, the dance marathon was popular, and that usually meant the band had to play continuously. Naturally they took breaks and changed players, but guys still were playing a long time, and reed men were biting through the lower lip with the 'clarinet' embouchure that is still taught for sax - the lower lip rolled way back over the lower teeth. They came up with what a guy who was there told me they called the 'pooch mouth', in which the lower lip was rolled out more. This did wonders for them in every way and solved the lip-biting - the teeth are cushioned by the thicker part of the lip rather than the thinner flesh under the lip. The reason he told me this was I had bit through my under-lip the same way, playing mornings, matinees and nights at a resort in 1964. Since I learned that from old Red Boykin, I've always had a fat sound and no more lip-cutting.