Student horn, am I asking too much?

[progmr]

Hello:

I'm a starting over sax player. I am currently renting a YAS & YTS23 and am trying to decide on which I want to pursue (read spend 2k+ on). I feel my playing is good but I feel might be limited by quality of the horn, namly that the TS23 sounds very stuffy and it seems to be impossible to get that "ballsy" like the guy in this thread:

http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=43445

I've noticed my embusure is much different then on alto and in fact I can open the sound up some by not curling my lip over my teeth but still cannot get that non-stuffy higher register. I'm wonding if it is me or the horn (or both) and what one can expect from a student horn TS23 and perhaps some buying advise on a tenor. In short what makes a pro horn a pro horn and a student horn a student horn? Will intonation problems (namely the middel D being way sharp) be corrected by a pro horn? Will C# not sound so nasally? Will the stuffyness be eliminated? etc

I'm using Jody Jazz #6 on the Tenor and a #5 on the alto and Vandorhen 2-1/2s on both. I've tried the Rico Jazz selects but they don't play well for me. I'm sure the advice will be to try a pro horn somewhere but where I live is a very long way from anywhere that sells pro/intermidiate horns. Right now I just want to see some hope that as I keep progressing towards earning the right to a pro-horn that I'm not basing it on limitations of a student horn instead of the promise that a professional horn can offer. And most importantly I don't want to spend valuable time and energy (and learning bad habits) trying to correct problems common to student horns. I'm interested in pursuing blues/rock and roll.

Thanks for any assistance.

[Al Stevens]

You're about to spend 2K+ on a saxophone. So spend a couple hundred bucks on an airline ticket and go to the nearest major city where you know you'll find a music store with a big selection of new and used horns that you can try out. Use the Internet and your telephone to pick a city and a store.

Or you can buy something sight-unseen based on what you are told here, get a horn you hate, take a several hundred dollar loss when you sell it on ebay, and reiterate the procedure until you get what you want.

Your choice.

[Dog Pants]

I'll second what Al said, and add that a very effective way to try before you buy, is to get involved with other sax players.
If I use may use myself as an example, I had a Yamaha YTS 62 I in minty condition. Great horn for a late bloomer. I took lessons from various teachers for a long while. Most were great players and good teachers but I didn't feel like I was progressing despite dedicating 3 or more hours a day to practice.
I finally came across my current teacher. I've since been to hundreds of various gigs, met dozens of other players, done concert bands, school band camps, jazz camps, sat in with a good pub rock band, played quartets and charts with other players, and am teaching school kids.
Along the way, aside from having a ball and making some great mates, I got to try dozens of great horns and mouthpieces. I eventually sold the 62 to a young student and picked up a Martin tenor for a bargain ( spotted by my teacher) had it overhauled, and still came away with a great horn at a good price. I've been able to pick up several other great horns in similar fashion too, but the point is, I wouldn't have had the opportunity to try so many different combinations and find what worked for me, if I hadn't had the contact with so many other players.
Before you get a major case of "late bloomer syndrome" otherwise known as "I'm not ready yet," I ought to add, that in most of the situations I listed above, most, if not all the other players were better than myself. Even some of the high school and community concert band charts, were a sight reading challenge for a slow reader like me. The guys in the pub rock band were all big name players down this end of the world and I was quite literally wetting myself on that gig.
You know what, it didn't matter! I'm a much better player for having done it. No one made me feel bad, every other player I've met has been supportive of all the other guys. I'm guessing we all think everyone plays better than we do.
So do as Al says, but don't be afraid to get out there and blow. It's an exciting, sometimes scary, wonderful journey, and you'll learn more about what horn is right for you than you could ever hope to here.
No disrespect to the forum which is the best thing since subsidised beer and home delivered pizza. You know what I mean. ;)

[Carl H.]

I don't want to spend valuable time and energy (and learning bad habits) trying to correct problems common to student horns. I'm interested in pursuing blues/rock and roll.

Thanks for any assistance.

With student horns the tone may not be your eventual ideal but is not the limiting factor, the keywork is usually what gets in the way. I'd suggest you keep playing this horn untill you need the more ergonomic keywork. Personally I'd want to hear you before recommending a change of equipment, but if you feel the need for something different, try a different sort of mouthpiece - something like a dukoff D or a berg larsen in a 0 or 1.

Guys who know how to play can blow the roof off a joint with their mouthpiece on any student horn (provided it is playable at all). Horn choice is a personal preference/ finesse kind of thing. For many years I played a student armstrong alto and received MANY compliments on my sound. I loved that horn, but the pinky cluster was impossible to navigate through technical passages - but R&R doesn't usually have that sort of issue. Hit the sax mouthpieces for sale area and see what is for sale. Then search for info on those pieces and when something seems like what you are looking for give it a shot. Many people have used the SOTW marketplace to find their equipment without breaking the bank.

Good Luck (and hit the shed for LONG TONES)

[A Greene]

I suggest you take your YTS-23 to a technician and see if there's any problems. Yamaha Beginning Instruments are REALLY good - in fact during my recent Mark VI overhaul I used a YTS-23 for two weeks without any problems. Sure it lacks the tone but mechanically it was very solid.

With that said - regardless of the instrument - if you think a horn is holding you back - than it will. It's one of those unconscious deals. Do some research, try some horns, and save some money - it sounds like you're buying a new tenor SOON.

Good Luck

[timobrien]

Yup. I drove 1200 miles up to Prowinds when I was horn shopping for a $3K tenor.

Ya gotta try 'em out yourself if you want something that will sing to YOU.

[hornimprovement]

Hello:

the TS23 sounds very stuffy and it seems to be impossible to get that "ballsy" like the guy in this thread:

http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=43445

Will intonation problems (namely the middel D being way sharp) be corrected by a pro horn? Will C# not sound so nasally? Will the stuffyness be eliminated? etc

The guy on the thread could probably switch to a YTS-23 and you probably would not notice a huge difference (but he would not have as much fun). He has his sound and is energizing the whole sax to get it. Yamaha 23's generally have a good scale and tone is on the bright side. If it is adjusted properly (many rentals are not well-maintained) you should be able to progress on it. When you do go horn shopping, your sound will be more developed and you will be in a better position to select a sax that is going to take you to the next level.
In previous threads I have discussed techniques for getting the middle D in tune. Energizing the entire air column of the sax will fix middle D, make low D easier, and temper that C#. Good Luck! -Jeff http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=31201
http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=352470#post352470

[Canadiain]

If you are finding it stuffy, could it be that a different or more open mouthpiece with a softer reed might make a big difference. Thats what Ive found anyway.

If its well adjusted I dont think you will find the YTS is the problem. If you borrow someone elses horn, do you find that stuffy too? Do other players find your horn stuffy with their mouthpiece? What does your instructor think?

[J.Max]

I have found that some people are built for alto and some are built for tenor...it sounds like you may also be playing with an embrouchure that is too tight on tenor. The horn probably needs adjustment too.

[barigroove]

Yamaha makes some pretty decent student model horns. The intonation thing with the middle D will be there on any saxophone. I'd like to hear a clip of you playing before suggesting a horn change, especially if you're gonna drop $2k. There's a pro in town who actually plays a YTS-23. I have a couple questions though:

1) How long have you been playing? (Still in school?)

2) When you say Vandoren, do you mean Classic, Java, V16, ZZ?
If you want a "ballsy" sound, go with V16 or ZZ.

3) Have you had the horn checked for leaks?

I think your mouthpiece is fine, but could be a little more open. I think your horn is good (at least it doesn't suffer from mechanical flaws or bad intonation). You may be using the wrong reed to get the sound you want. I recently used a Rico Royal 3 because I needed a reed quick and that's what was available. The tone was so constricted and stuffy compared to my usual Rico Jazz Select 3M.

Like yourself, I'm primarily an alto player. When I first started playing tenor in college, I thought my sound was really stuffy on tenor compared to alto, and I was using a Mark VI that the school owned with a Brilhart Level-air 7. It took me only practicing on tenor for a few years before I finally sounded decent on the thing. Someone mentioned earlier that some people are built for alto and others for tenor. I think it has more to do with the amount of time you've spent on each, because they're both played a little differently.