Is this a C soprano?

[stitch]

I’d appreciate the combined knowledge of the forum to help me work out what sort of soprano – Bb/C, LP/HP - I have here. It’s a Jerome Thibouville Lamy, French, post 1900, metal touches, double octaves, two LH and two RH palm keys, keyed to low Bb, 22 7/8” (58.3 cm) long.

According to previous posts here on sotw and elsewhere a LP Bb sop is around 25 ½” and a HP about 23 ¾”, whereas C sops are 22 to 22 ½”. At 22 7/8” the JTL is a touch longer than previously reported C sops, but perhaps not significantly(?).

So far so C sop, BUT but but but …. when I play a C it comes out as concert Bb at 440Hz (B as concert A, A as G + 40 cents, G as F# - 30 cents … I'm thinking a few intonation issues ...). I’m using a Yamaha 5CM with med soft fibracell. Now, even given that the sax needs a bit of work, and I’m no sop player, surely if it was in C it should come out somewhere in the general vicinity of C?

Any and all thoughts on the matter would be welcome!

[cmelodysax]

Stitch - gut reaction, from the size, and "A as G + 40 cents, G as F# - 30 cents" I'd go for an HP Bb, although C=Bb and B=A is confusingly more like a LP Bb...

The physical size, given that there are a few variations for older instruments, is just that little bit too long for a C - i.m.h.o. Plus, I can't imagine a "C with intonation challenges" being as much as a whole tone out in places.......

I've messed about on the two 20's C-Sops I have (which differ in length - the Martin being a whisper over 22", and the Conn being closer to 22 1/2) - and the worst variation I can produce with an unsuitable setup (and no lipping to compensate) is about half a semitone. That's with part of the instrument 'in tune', obviously I can put an unsuitable long-shank Bb Sop mpc on the C's which shifts the whole range into the 'very flat' zone, but that's deliberate sabotage.

So I'd say probably HP 'Bb'. Too far out to be an LP 'C'. But (see below) with a suitable mouthpiece it could be LP'ish Bb, size isn't always finite.

This next bit is about clarinets rather than Sops, but I've got a 1900 Buffet Albert HP 'C' clarinet, which is perfect 'HP' with it's own little 'custom' mouthpiece. But when I try it with the relatively modern mouthpiece that works perfectly with my LP Boehm 'C' clarinet - it becomes HP and LP in different places, the intonation literally is all over the place......

So, a modern mouthpiece may not be ideal for your period soprano, you may be hitting the same sort of intonation/setup quirkiness with this early Bb, that the C saxes are renowned for. . Bit 'clutching at straws' I know, sorry nothing more concrete.

Good Luck & Kind Regards, Alan.

[bruce bailey]

Not to be too contrary, but are you sure it goes to low Bb and not B? That would put it about right as a standard Bb horn. One easy way to spot a C is that the low C lever slightly covers the C pad whereas a Bb soprano has a bit of space where you can look at the body tube. I agree that it may be a HP since it is a Euro horn.

[cmelodysax]

Stitch - I'm sure that (way back) I've seen vintage Bb soprano's that were thinner and shorter. In the same way that the Martin C-Sop (at 22") has a smaller bell, and at various parts of the body is just that little bit skinnier than the (22.5") Conn, there must similarly be a range of lengths for Bb Soprano's.

Anyone out there care to explain at what point the narrowness of (e.g.) a Bb soprano bore becomes unworkable - because there does seem to be a relationship between bore size and tube length ? May explain your 22 7/8" length, does the JTL soprano seem just a tad slim by comparison to a more modern instrument ?

[Dave dix]

I have seen a few lamy's for sale, this company goes way back to Adolphe Sax era.It does seem to be a HP horn.
Dave

[bruce bailey]

I just got a TT curved and the body down around D and the bow really looks small.

[stitch]

Thanks for all the input chaps – all good stuff.

Not to be too contrary, but are you sure it goes to low Bb and not B?

Not contrary at all Bruce; when I searched for info there was a poster who had a slightly high (445 Hz I think) sop to B that was between 22 ½ and 23". This one does go to Bb though. BTW although in the photo it looks like it's nearly 24" long, it is just under 23"

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h121/asits9/JTL/JTL.jpg

But (see below) with a suitable mouthpiece...

That got me thinking Alan. I dug out a few LP Bb sops (Hawkes & Son, Rene Guenot, plus a no-name but reassuringly marked "LP 880Hz"), all in less than perfect playing order, but not too bad, plus some more m/ps (a Weltklang, a Rico Royal B5 – which was with the horn -, a Selmer C* and an old wooden A Mayeur Opera with minimal shank, as well as the Yam 5CM) and tested them all. The results were, well, interesting …

JTL H&S RG NN
Yam 5CM Bb A A Bb
WeltklangBb A A Bb
B5 Bb Bb A A
C* Bb Bb A Bb
A Mayeur B Bb Bb Bb

[Curses - that was supposed to come out as a table]

So then I rammed the Mayeur much further onto the cork and … cue fanfare … it came out as concert C! Just to make sure I tried the Selmer well down with the same results: intonation pretty good on some notes and up to 20 cents flat on others – it even went down to D without too much trouble.

So it looks like all that stuff in my first post about intonation being way out has a simple explanation – operator error :oops:

I knew the length was a shade over ‘normal’ C-sops (although there aren’t that many data to compare with), but was pretty sure it was way too short to be HP Bb – my figure of 23 ¾" was calculated by subtracting 7% as per Cybersax’s site, and a HP H&S recently sold on eBay listed as 24". Anyway, it looks like it’s definitely a LP C, so the owner will be pretty pleased.

[woodwindNYC]

I don't know that I can add anything in the way of technical information, but I wanted to say that that is one BEAUTIFUL horn!

[cmelodysax]

Stitch - my turn to say "Doh !"

There's always a simple answer - just look at how far onto the cork my two short-shank Bb mouthpieces have to go - to be in tune on a C-Sop. Literally up to the highest octave 'pip', well onto the cork......

http://www.cmelodysax.co.uk/saxophones/soprano/als-two-csops.htm

Well done ! Kind Regards, Alan.

P.S. I''ve been thinking about shortening a Bb Sop Weltklang mpc (small and beautifully proportioned, but far too long in the shank) to try on a C-Sop.....

[bruce bailey]

The photo really does look like a Bb as teh low C lever is quite a ways from the pad. If it is in playing condition, just check the pitch with a tuner and if it is usable, it really doesn't matter what the maker was trying to do. Nice horn.

[Tharruff]

From what I can see of the keywork this horn looks VERY VERY similar to a 1920's Buffet / Evette & Schaeffer Soprano Sax that I own. I'm away from home at the moment and can't look at it to be more sure of my comment. Mine is in Bb - Low Pitch. Maybe 'Lamy' was a predecessor to E & S ?

However, in regards to this horn in the photo above, I have to agree with Bruce about the location of the Low C tone hole with respect to the key operator. To me that 'seems' like the 'right' location to indicate a Bb horn ???

[stitch]

There's always a simple answer - just look at how far onto the cork my two short-shank Bb mouthpieces have to go - to be in tune on a C-Sop.

I looked at your site when I first researched the sax, Alan - I should have noticed then. As is so often the case, the fault lay with the bit at the end of the mouthpiece ...:)

The photo really does look like a Bb as teh low C lever is quite a ways from the pad. If it is in playing condition, just check the pitch with a tuner and if it is usable, it really doesn't matter what the maker was trying to do. Nice horn.

However, in regards to this horn in the photo above, I have to agree with Bruce about the location of the Low C tone hole with respect to the key operator. To me that 'seems' like the 'right' location to indicate a Bb horn ???

Point taken guys, but I did eventually get it to play pretty much in tune, so I'm reasonably convinced it's a LP C soprano. I was leaning that way anyway, as the length (22 7/8") is much closer to a C (reported as 22 - 22 1/2") than a HP Bb (23 3/4").


From what I can see of the keywork this horn looks VERY VERY similar to a 1920's Buffet / Evette & Schaeffer Soprano Sax that I own. I'm away from home at the moment and can't look at it to be more sure of my comment. Mine is in Bb - Low Pitch. Maybe 'Lamy' was a predecessor to E & S ?

According to Langwill's there's no connection between JTL and E&S. Perhaps any similarity is just that they're both French and of the same vintage?

I have a query on the mechanics that I'll post in the appropriate section, but in the meantime, you may like to see this curiosity stamped under the thumbhook:

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h121/asits9/JTL/N.jpg

[cmelodysax]

Stitch - I'm still embarassed, I wouldn't have thought that the mouthpiece position could have literally made a difference of a whole tone, Bb vs. C......

I live and learn, never forget the bleedin' obvious !

European saxes had common features in the early 1900's, is that a piggy-back tonehole for forked Eb on top of the D cup ? Classic. Nice sax....