more puffed cheeks playing tenor?

[sweetsax]

Hey guys,
As an alto player all my life, I've always worked on developing a good emboucure while not puffing my cheeks when I blow. But now that I have started playing tenor, I'm finding that I'm fighting the urge to puff my cheeks, especially when playing second tenor in a big band when you have those lines that require a smooth legato phrasing and subtone approach - to hold my tone, I'm getting a pocket of air in my cheeks and on each side of my lower lip, each side of the mouthpiece basically. Is that normal for tenor?

Maybe I can humour you with a little background mouthpiece info........ I play a Yani metal #7 on my Ref alto and that is the perfect set-up for me. I've had a new CJS tenor for a while, and I've just been playing a variety of standard hard rubber pieces with medium to big round chambers. I was having a real hard time doubling on alto and tenor with these set-ups because of the drastic mouthpiece difference. Not only are the resistance and blowing characteristics so different, but just the pysical size difference made it difficult to double. The guys in my sax line even told me I was making it hard on my self. Most people play a hard rubber piece on alto and metal on tenor. But I'm doing the opposite. Anyway, since I don't want to mess with my alto set-up, I went ahead and ordered a Yani metal 7 for tenor (man, I love these yani metal peices, but that's for another thread).

Now doubling is waaay easier with common mouthpeices, but I've really started to notice the cheek puffing thing with the yani mpc on tenor. I don't know if my emboucure is trying to compensate for a smaller mouthpiece or what, but I don't want to start puffing my cheeks and develop a bad habit. I've seen pics of pro tenor players who seem to be puffing slightly or playing with more of an air pocket behind their lips and around the mouthpiece. Is that just how it is with tenor?

[Razzy]

http://www.rochesterjazz.com/festival_photos_2003/viewer/060703.Chris-Potter-1.jpg

Not sure if it's exactly puffing, but there's definitely something going on there. His embouchure looks god awful, lots of chin bunching, overused muscles... but nobody can say this man doesn't know how to play a saxophone.

I study flute with a really fantastic player, she subs with the Philly Orchestra, plays shows on Broadway, operas at the Academy here in philly, etc... has the biggest, gorgeousest flute sound I've ever heard. She puffs her cheeks pretty consistently. Not a lot, but a little in the back a la Chris Potter here.

So... I guess it's a habit you should try to avoid, but... if it's letting you achieve sounds, be it as the next emissary of jazz tenor, a virtuosic classical flute soloist, or anything in between, who's to say it's bad? In both cases I don't think the minor cheek puffing interferes with the stability of the embouchure. As long as your embouchure is sound, I don't see it as a problem. Sounds to me like you might want to eliminate it from your lower lips if you can, as puffing in that area might interfere with control of tone and pitch.

[saxymanzach]

I agree with Razzy.

[Razzy]

As an aside, your experiences with the difference between alto and tenor mouthpieces is something that will go away with time. I play a meyer 5 on alto and a metal link 7* or 8 on tenor. They're very different mouthpieces. I spent about 4 years with that particular alto mouthpiece and am just starting to figure out the Link thing after tackling it for a few weeks of just tone studies and learning how to make the reed respond optimally. Give it some time, eventually radical differences in equipment will not be a problem, as long as you've devoted a lot of time to that specific setup and developed a comfort level with that particular horn.

[sweetsax]

yep, that's pretty much what I mean by slight puffing. It hasn't really affected my ability to control my tone and pitch, it just goes against everything I learned about playing alto (been playing alto for almost 20 years, tenor for about 20 months)

[Razzy]

My saxophone embouchures are all pretty much the same, sop through bari. At least, they FEEL the same. I've played each horn a great deal, so they don't really feel different anymore, ya know? I'm not inclined to puff my cheeks on one more than another, though on tenor it seems my oral cavity opens up a bit more comparitively, when I play very loud or very soft. Anyway the point I'm trying to make is that I (and a lot of players, I think) have a blanket concept of approach to air and embouchure that covers the board with saxophones. On each horn the shaping of the tone with the oral cavity is different, but the process of basic sound production is essentially the same on all of them.

[Dan Molloy]

I know Razzy touched on it a little, but can anyone give us the "offical" explanation as to why the puffing of cheeks is discouraged.

I do it a little. Tried to resist it, but over the years it just developed. It causes me no problems with fatigue, sound or intonation.

[baritone]

I think depends on the tension in your cheek...

so when I play my alto, I definitely puff a little...in which I feel the sound is softer and better control...I think definitely should avouid puffing for the sake of puffing....

sorry that could sound a bit rubbish...

[dshook]

From what I understand, it slows and unfocuses your airstream. Try blowing on your hand and without changing anything else, puff and unpuff your cheeks, you can feel the strength and focus diminish. That said, for foofy second tenor stuff, that slow fuzzy air might be what you're after for an extremely soft subtone or the like.

[OOlufoks]

It may be a horn size thing, or a soloing thing. I noticed Branford Marsalis, does not quite puff his cheeks, but seems to keep an air pocket on the lower jaw side of his mouth. His so called "pocket" is smaller on soprano than it is on tenor. Actually, I have seen a lot of Tenor soloists with embouchure similar to that picture of Chris Potter's. To me, that picture looks more like expanding the oral cavity, unlike the Dizzy Gillespe puffing of the cheeks.

[Razzy]

Yea I noticed that too, a lot of guys have that look actually. I looked in the mirror while playing tenor tonight and realized I do it a little bit too, looks a bit like Chris Potter's thing except my neck doesn't puff nearly as much and the "upper cheeks slight puffing" is not as pronounced, but it's definitely there. Then I picked up the alto and it's still there but a little less. I imagine with bari it might be a little more and with soprano almost nonexistant. Weird!

[Bernards20040]

It may be a horn size thing, or a soloing thing. I noticed Branford Marsalis, does not quite puff his cheeks, but seems to keep an air pocket on the lower jaw side of his mouth. His so called "pocket" is smaller on soprano than it is on tenor. Actually, I have seen a lot of Tenor soloists with embouchure similar to that picture of Chris Potter's. To me, that picture looks more like expanding the oral cavity, unlike the Dizzy Gillespe puffing of the cheeks.


Looks like he's really opened his throat to me;)
my teacher used to have me look in a mirror and actually practice to look like that to make sure i was really opening my throat:shock:

[Lorentz]

Isn't it better to keep the air pocket in your throat than in the front cavity? I heard it's better to puff the neck than your cheek... isn't this true?

[Grumps]

Gee, I remember the good old days, when psychotic band directors could hold a needle next to your cheek while you played. Now it would make front page news in the local paper...

[Razzy]

Sounds like a grand ol' time, Grumps. Let me know how the therapy works out.

[Dr G]

Don't puff on purpose. You see variations in "puff" that are due to the differences in physiology of each player - facial musculature, skin elasticity, etc. Concentrate on the embouchure and airstream and let the rest fall out naturally.

[sweetsax]

I'm not inclined to puff my cheeks on one more than another, though on tenor it seems my oral cavity opens up a bit more comparitively, when I play very loud or very soft.

I think this is why I'm noticing it now with my yani metal mp, because it so small in the mouth. It took me a long while to get used to the looser, and more open emboucure it takes to play tenor. I don't puff my cheeks at all with a hard rubber tenor piece.

[1saxman]

'His embouchure looks god awful, lots of chin bunching, overused muscles..'

It's called 'chops'. Ever heard of Eddie 'Lockjaw' Davis? What is taught for 'embouchure' bears little resemblance to what goes on in the real world. These guys are not 'tooting' on the horn like a third grader in the bandroom - they're blowing. When I go to the music store to play a horn or play my horn after some work, they have to put me in the practice room because it's so loud. Maybe this is an 'old school' thing because we came up when you had to blow to be heard. For me, it's the only way to get that sound.

[ssleb]

Puffed cheeks are discouraged because you end up loosing control on the stream of air. The air simply isn't going in a straight line anymore. It's moving from a cylinder, to a sphere-ish place, to a cone. The point of not puffing is to keep the air moving as straight as possible to be able to use it to the max.

As for tenor being a cause, it's just because tenor requires more air to be sent in a straight line. More air requires more control and hence, your cheeks fight to puff out.

And regarding puffing your cheeks when soloing, I DO puff my cheeks purposefully sometimes to get a dirty, loud, raspy sound. I usually do it on low notes (B, Bb) just to make them that much more meaningful. ;)

[rsclosson]

My teacher really ingrained the "don't puff cheeks" thing into me big time at an early age. (Didn't want to hear a thing I had to say about Zoot Sims, Gerry Mulligan or Archie Shepp.) To this day, I just don't do it on either alto or tenor. Probably best to avoid it.

[58tenor]

1saxman makes a very good point. Besides,at the moment the pic was taken who even knows what the subject was doing? I have seen some real big time MoFos generate all manner of facial contortions while blowing in fantastic fashion.

A good friend of mine puffs his cheeks out like Diz on tenor and he's got a MONSTER sound! Technically, it may be frowned upon and you wouldn't teach a young kid to do it. But...for some guys it works. I doubt they even notice.

All this about "focused airstream" and whatnot is just an idea in your head. It's how you visualize the physiology of playing sax. The sound has NOTHING to do with air "filling up" the horn. It is about exciting an oscillator-vibrating the reed. Google "saxophone acoustics",some great physics info on how our horns work. The nuances are so subjective from player to player it defies description.

If you do something long enough and get real good at it, your body just adapts. By that point academic theory means very little. Guys like Lockjaw,Dex and a hundred others transcended anything which could ever be taught. They were artists at least as much as technicians. And a saxophone is an art instrument not a wholly scientific tool, although good science can help understand many things,saxes included.

[Rockplayer]

My first sax teacher (many years back) was blind, literally, his attention was paid solely to my tone - years later I got the "don't puff" lecture but by then it was too late. I'm a puffer...

[m3pilot]

There's a world of difference between an uncontrolled, student-ish puff and simply allowing you cheeks to puff out while still maintaining a consistent oral cavity.

I was never a "puffer" until I started experimenting with it fairly recently and, when done with consistent technique, I really dig the effect it has on my sound. I think it gives a sweeter, cooler sound. It also helps to get your tongue out of the way.

Zoot did it and he had a fantastic and very versatile sound. Done right (with consistent formation and airstream support), I think it's a perfectly legitimate technique for achieveing a certian sound.

[newlifesax]

I saw Branford M. play in Ft. Worth on Friday night. Even though I was up close, I still took my binoculars along. Looking without the magnification it seemed like his cheeks were out, and when I looked thru the lenses, it was pretty evident. When he played his tenor, he appeared to have the "air pockets in the cheek" thing going on (perhaps aka puffing).

Puffy or not puffy, he sure sounded good! And I wish I was half as proficient on my instruments as he is.