Bassed again! [Archive] - Sax on the Web Forum

Bootman

08-09-2006, 12:50 PM

I have just acquired another Bass sax, hurray!!! life is complete again, or will be once I have got it fixed up to playing condition, most likely a full rebuild. I got the Low Bb thunder note out again today, with difficulty due to the leaks but it was there!

Once you have had a Bass and sold it, the desire to get back into it again, buy another Bass is always there. Denial only works for so long! Thunder Down Under will be happening before too long.

A special thanks to Super20Dan for putting me in contact with his mate Dan (the former owner of the bass). I am once again grateful to SOTW forums members for trher help, wisdom and friendship!

qazmom

08-09-2006, 02:06 PM

I have that desire to buy a bass sax and i never even had one! congrads on your new bass sax!

saxtek

08-10-2006, 06:11 AM

Hey, Boot! What did you get? Let us know about the mouthpiece too.

Bootman

08-10-2006, 09:42 AM

An old Conn in need of repair! I will drop you a line via email with some ideas Ihave been having about it all.

tensopbass

08-10-2006, 09:59 AM

Are the kids going to keep your name? :D Congrats. nicko

Jolle

08-10-2006, 10:51 AM

Anybody who wants to donate his lottery-income to this poor guy in search for more thunder?

Congrats Bootman, play dem THUNDER!!

Bootman

08-11-2006, 09:25 AM

No problems with separation here, all sanctioned by having to offload something first. Provided I didn't take money out of housekeeping, all is cool!

Bootman

08-12-2006, 11:45 PM

Off to repairer in the next week, time to do panel beating, rods, pads etc.... I guess it is full rebuild time.

cornific

08-13-2006, 01:59 AM

i am many miles from my home bass, i mean my bass is about 1200 miles away from here, as i am out of province and have been for the last few months. recently i went into a second hand recordings store, "the villiage idiot" here in london ontario and found a silver BB flat tuba sitting on the fridge, in quite good shape, cheap cheap cheap. now all i have to do is to get it home to winnipeg. hope the couf doesn't get jealous ...

Bootman

10-11-2006, 04:52 AM

The Bass is back almost completed. We have removed dents, resoldered everything, toneholes and posts that were incorrectly refitted instead of actually fixing the bent body tube. I actually get rather upset when I see these bodgy repairs done on such fantastic old horns by so called repair techs. I just wish that these poor repair decision were done instead of spending the tiem to repair the horn properly. It is something I see on so many bigger saxes.

The Bass is now playing exceptionally, all leaks have been found, all tone holes have been resoldered because anywhere we didn't resolder, there was another leak. All keywork has been swedged and made to fit as it should, there is no play in the mechanism at all. New Pads and springs have all been done, I am certain that there is a whole goat in the pads of this horn. It is like a brand new 1920's Bass sax with a little plate wear now, an incredible horn to play.

All I have to find now is a new neck that hasn't been hacked and remade with an angle on the top end of the neck. The neck still works and is mroe comfortable to play like this but I have some serious doubts about the integrity of the remodelling work. I guess it is time for a Gloger neck for the beast, solid silver.

In the whole the rebuilding of the bass sax has been the same as rebuilding a vintage car, cheaper than a car to rebuild but not what you would call cheap. The benefit is like that of a restored motor car, it has all the qualities of the vintage vehicle but is all hand refinished. These old horns are well worth the effort of restoration becasue the sound of a low Bb being honked is nothing short of earth shatteringly incredible. God sings bass too.....

Bar-Ron

10-26-2006, 05:19 PM

Get a version of National Emblem from Paul coats for sax quartet and play the trio, Bass lead, and rattle your eye balls on that Bb whole note.
when your quartet gets over the shock and laughter when the bell rattles and your eyes swim around from the resonance all will be well again.

Congrats.

let us know your mouthpiece trivales,as we all fool around with those Oldies trying to find the optimum.

Bootman

10-30-2006, 09:51 AM

Horn is back and firing very nicely. the mpc tweaks have worked very well, faster attack on the notes, easier breath control, thunderous low end and good intonation. It still requires a lot of breath though but the results are great. It is loud enough to use acoustically as a solo horn in a Jazz quartet without a mic. The looks on the faces of the audience is priceless.

I have been working on a strap that isn't a harness that takes the weight across your shoulders and still allows the horn to hang properly.

cornific

10-30-2006, 05:18 PM

I have been working on a strap that isn't a harness that takes the weight across your shoulders and still allows the horn to hang properly.

good luck with that. please post your results and design if it works out. i wish i could sling my bass somehow. a neck strap is out of the question and the harness ... well ... i find that unworkable too. i was thinking of a marching drum type of thing, rigid with generous padding. i have so many other projects to get out of the way before i get to the bass strap.

for now i balance the bow on a tall stool with a bit of padding to forgive the lacquer. it works well as long as i don't have to move. i just use a strap as a safety harness for the horn.

Bootman

10-30-2006, 07:06 PM

Will do on the strap. Probably post pics over the next week or so, dependign on time to get the job done.

Gandalfe

11-15-2006, 08:49 PM

As I have just purchased Wade Walker's (some of you know him as ww2) Buescher Bass Sax ('21) I will be very interested in strap and stand recommendations. So Bootman, pictures of your solutions would be interesting.

I'm talking mine to Paul Woltz of Seattle. His Buescher bass sax is killer and he made some alterations to fix intonation and sound challenges. I'll try to document that process.

Bootman, can you tell us who redid your bass?

Swingin' Cat

11-15-2006, 08:59 PM

How about posting some pics and mp3s on your website?

Mike

Gandalfe

12-06-2006, 12:12 AM

How about posting some pics and mp3s on your website?

MikeDone at http://gandalfe.spaces.live.com/. I'm wrestling with D2 and E2. I can get D2 to speak very nicely with the side D key and no octave.

I got Paul Woltz at Kennelly Keys in Lynnwood to fix six leaks, a trashed tone hole, and a munged octave key. My brother, wife and I watch mesmerized for three hours as he did the magic. Then we bought him lunch and even tipped him. He is a bass sax phenom in the Seattle area and does all of Jay Easton's work.

Next I want to:

- shorten the neck and add a shim to return the starting diameter to new and add a push button drip valve on the base of the turn beneath the neck. Both were Paul's suggestions. I couldn't believe this instrument didn't have a spit valve!

- find a case solution as the gig bag it came in isn't the way to go.

- get the sax rax I ordered so that I can have a stage rack for multiple instruments.

- get beyond the long tone stage and start playing music.

Cheers.

Bootman

12-25-2006, 11:50 PM

The repairer of my Bass was Brian Dickson and myself. I was doing a lot of the manipulation and prep work here under his instruction. I learnt many things over those weeks.

Everything is done now bar the rollers because they only arrived just prior to Christmas and everywhere is on holidays till early January. It is possible to play the horn without the rollers but it makes certain fingering combinations far more challenging.

I will sort a webpage out about the Bass sax in the next week as I finally have a respite from the hectic gigging and teaching schedule. I am also looking forward to repadding my H.N. White metal clarinet after replating it here with a Caswell plating kit. I will also do some spot replating on areas of the Bass sax with the same kit after receiving some invaluable advice from an old bloke who used to run a plating business here. This should keep me busy these summer holidays as well the kids outings of course.

tensopbass

12-26-2006, 02:17 AM

This is my take on harness. It's much more comfortable than it looks, also the hook is near my right nipple (to suit the Conn), much shorter than any conventional strap.
I have almost finished the new bari,I tried nickel plating, but was not entirely happy with the result, as seems to need a certain degree of "rocket science". Is silver easier to plate?
Maybe one day I'll take the plunge and do a full rebuild of the bass.
nicko

Gandalfe

12-26-2006, 03:08 AM

Bootman, can't wait to see the pictures--needs to be a lot of pics. :D

Bootman

12-26-2006, 06:05 AM

I can't use a harness on an older horn, it puts the balnce at the wrong point for the horn. I am going to use a variation on some straps I use here. My Bari strap works well on the Bass and takes the weight across the shoulder blades and not on the neck. You can use a normal neck strap too but it does hurt after a while.

Pics of the horn and the final finished item will be put up soon. I am charging the batteries now for the Camera.

rhysonsax

12-27-2006, 06:09 PM

I've just received my bass sax from the maker/seller in Germany. It's an immense low A based (bass'd) on the Keilwerth. What a beast !

In the case was a weird strap affair that is a bit like a belt, with each end having two swivel clips. And the horn is strange in that it has a second ring, like a strap ring, near the top of the horn.

I have no idea how to wear this thing correctly or how to attach it safely to the horn. Tried it over the shoulder and connecting with one clip to each strap ring, but that slung it much too low to play.

I also have a BG bari harness, but I don't like it at all, as the horn is uncomfortably close to the body and I can barely breathe !

I am sending a message to the seller about the strap, but my German is non-existent and his English pretty poor !

Has anyone seen a bass sax strap like this before and could you tell me how to use it comfortably/correctly/safely ?

All the best

Rhys

tensopbass

12-27-2006, 10:14 PM

Rhys, is that the one-off Keilwerth that was on ebay?I f so congrats you got a monster horn.
For translation try http://world.altavista.com/. Simply write your letter in the text box, pick a language, and it will do the rest.
nicko

rhysonsax

12-27-2006, 10:30 PM

That's the one - I am going to try to get the maker/seller to write me a history of it. It looks almost new, but I think it may be about ten years old. Although based on a Keilwerth (parts, style etc), it is marked only as "Martin Grunewald" (the maker), has no serial number and has a unique finish. I was amazed that no-one else bid for it, but was quite worried that the deal wouldn't go through or I'd lose all my money. The seller couldn't have been better.

I use Babel fish for translating into German, but I'm sure it's quite funny to read the output, judging by what it sometimes produces in "English".

All the best

Rhys

Gandalfe

12-27-2006, 11:37 PM

I'm not sure it this helps, but why would you use a strap for a bass sax. A nice floor stand, like the Hercules bari sax stand, works just fine for my Buescher bass. Just like I don't use a strap for my bass clarinet, I wouldn't think of using a strap for the bass. Just an idea...

Bootman

12-28-2006, 07:41 AM

The reason for a strap is so that you aren't limited to one spot when playing it. If you're built like I am you can tote a Bass around without too much hassle.

Bootman

12-29-2006, 09:09 AM

Some pics and a basic sample have added.
http://www.bootmanmusic.com/basssax.htm

SOTSDO

12-29-2006, 02:54 PM

Most "play it from the stand" sax stands are saxophone destroyers. While the bass is a touch heavier than an oboe, it's not impossible to handle one from a neckstrap, and it is a lot easier on the finish and key alignment of the horn as well.

The contra-bass sax - well, that's another story. However, the rarity of same indicates that few of us are going to have to deal with that problem, and to a certain extent the bass sax is similarly self-regulating.

As for bass clarinets, I can play mine (a Selmer Model 33 to low C) off of my thumb alone for extended periods. Difficulty is, as is usually the case, in the eye of the beholder.

I wonder if I have posted my bass sax story on this service to date? It is a tale of music, love lost, love found, mice and a torn headliner in my car, but I am loathe to repeat it twice for fear of boring someone to death.

Gandalfe

12-29-2006, 04:09 PM

I've found a solution or two for the clamp on bell bass sax stands. For the stage I'm ordering a SaxRax because I have a number of instruments and SaxRax can hold most of them. But at home I'm using a Hercules bari stand that doesn't ruin the finish of my instrument. Here's a picture but note that I don't set this rig up on a carpet because I don't want to take the chance that it will tip--it actually is quiet stable unlike other bari stands I've used:
http://www.gandalfe.net/images/saxpics/basssaxstand.jpg
I also had a problem where I had to push the mouthpiece (at least the four I tried) past the cork on the neck. So I had the great Paul Woltz (http://www.kennellykeysmusic.com/repair.htm) chop 3/4th of an inch off the neck, put a shim in to resize the inside diameter to original, and recork it.

Finally, since there was no spit valve on this '21 Buescher bass sax (what's that about?!?!?) Paul also recommended we fit an Amati trumpet spit valve.
http://www.gandalfe.net/images/saxpics/basssaxspitvalve.jpg
The pluses are that you can reach up with one finger and clear the neck while still playing. Also, unlike a standard spit valve there is nothing sticking up inside the neck. The disadvantage is that you must oil and keep the valve clean.

After reading Bootman's (and Stephen's) review of the the Gloger neck, I've ordered one of them too. By the way, altissimo E - B using overtones is very easy on this instrument. 8-)

Gandalfe

12-29-2006, 04:24 PM

Bootman, on the recording (from your site) which mouthpiece did you end up using? Also, was the Gloger neck a little longer than the original Conn? It just kinda looks that way from the pictures.

I'm currently using an Otto Link Tone Master and or Paul Coats Runyon rubber piece both with a Fibracell medium soft reed. I hope to find a nice Woodwind mouthpiece like Paul has or maybe have our own Bob Carpenter do something for me on a Zinner blank. Both were ideas from the Bass Coop (http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bass_Sax_Coop/).

Bootman

12-29-2006, 09:52 PM

Gandalfe,
The Mouthpiece I am using is a refaced and tricked up Conn Eagle Bass mpc. I had limited successes with Bari sax mpcs on the Bass. The biggest problem was lack of depth to the tone using a Bari sax mpc and quirkier intonation. The Bass mpc has a long facing, balanced rails, window work and tip work. It has also been opened up so that it has some resistance to it mainly because I dump too much air into a horn. I find soft reeds don't speak well for me nor do smaller tip openings. The down side of this is that you have to have more air. It is part of the legacy of using #4 reeds on a 10* Link for my primary gig set-up on tenor.

The reed on the recording was a #4 Plasticover that felt blown out, it was just the stage before quacking. I have had better results with Symmetricut 3 1/2's and La Voz Medium Hard reeds.

The Gloger neck is the same length as the bodged neck that came with my Bass, it is thinner than a normal Bass neck as was the case with the earlier Bass saxes of this period of manufacture. I spoke at length to Karsten about these issues. I need to add more cork to the neck so as to get the Bass mpc to fit nicely but haven't been able to do anything on this yet due to a lack of time because of gigging constantly. It will have to wait until new year and the gigs slow down.

I have tried the Runyon Bari mod before and it did work well but I lost a lot of depth to the tone. I previously discovered that a quantum works well on the Conn Basses with a little too much buzz but it did have good depth of tone.

I am looking for older vintage Bass mpc with the big chamber that are in salvageable condition. I will be trying some other baffle tricks to speed the air flow up and still retain the thunderous low round sound of a Bass yet give it more presence so that it can be used like a tenor on steroids in small groups. I am thinking of Bop playing with it and even soem quirky contemporary work. I can hardly wait until January when I get time to go and play around in the workshop and create something.

Bootman

12-29-2006, 09:55 PM

I play my Bass clarinet on a strap too as it is a pre leg spike model Selmer to low Eb. It isn't very difficult to play on a strap.

Gandalfe

12-29-2006, 11:34 PM

I play my Bass clarinet on a strap too as it is a pre leg spike model Selmer to low Eb. It isn't very difficult to play on a strap.I did the same but was the only bass clarinet in the section to do so. So I bowed to convention and started using the leg--now I luv it.

VictorJ7

12-30-2006, 12:28 AM

wow...
i sure wish i had one again....
very kool you guys...they are tons of fun....
When i had mine (Pan American) conn stencil (i got it from lenny pickett) i just used the basic sax neck strap...anyway i created a bass saxophone myspace page for well ...bass saxophone players ...pass and present..
check it out if you want
http://www.myspace.com/basssaxophonesonly
the photo is me playing in the all-star blues jam..1977...
and the song playing is of Ryan Styles playing his bass sax (he does not have one either) and i just met him on http://www.myspace.com/baritonesaxophones
...so when you guys come accross another one let us know please...(kiddin) (not really)
Best Regards and Maxium Respect
and hope you all have the best 2007 ever...!!
victor rodriguez

bari_sax_diva

12-30-2006, 12:51 AM

Bootman--sounds great. Are you selling any family members into slavery to pay for this?

Congrats,
Leanne

Bootman

12-30-2006, 11:29 AM

I am currently minus 4 tenors which covered the cost of the bass. The rest of it was a bank job!!! :)

Bootman

01-02-2007, 08:20 AM

The strap has been fashioned with the help of a well known ex forum member and leather specialist. Pics to come soon.

rhysonsax

01-12-2007, 09:47 AM

How does that harness compare with the BG harness ?

I have a BG, and find it's secure but feels a bit constricting. See the one at sax.co.uk http://www.saxophones.co.uk/acatalog/BG_Straps.html

I'm interested that you use it on a Keilwerth bass sax. I'm taking some time getting used to my newly-acquired low A bass sax that is based on the Keilwerth: http://cgi.ebay.de/Bass-Saxophon-Martin-Gruenewald-Keilwerth-Meisterstueck_W0QQitemZ150067370768QQihZ005QQcateg oryZ84591QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I don't know whether it is the extra tubing for low A, but the strap ring feels like it is too high up the horn to get the sax to hang comfortably. The ring may have been positioned for good balance, but it's difficult to make the mouthpiece appear at the right position for comfortable blowing.

Can you tell me where the strap ring is on your Keilwerth bass (e.g. mine is opposite the G# pad) ?

My bass sax has also got another two strap rings, mounted on the back of the main tube at the top and bottom, where the tube joins the bow and top curve. It can be used with a guitar strap on these two rings. It takes the weight fine, but I find that it makes the horn lie too horizontal and not vertical enough.

All the best

Rhys

Bar-Ron

01-14-2007, 10:48 PM

I am using a Harness from the Royal city sax quartet site. It holds the 21 Conn perfectly. Its shoulder straps can be adjust with ease and I can get it off and on with out changing the adjustment. Others I have tried hang too low for the Bass and are hard to elevate the instrument properly.

Bar-Ron

01-14-2007, 10:53 PM