palm keys in the 1st octave?

[Dan_camsky]

I´ve been playng sax self tought for 3 years. A month ago, I decided to attend some sax classes with a local instructor. As I learned in a fingering chart in the site www.wfg.woodwind.org/sax/sax_fing.html , I was used to finger first octave D using the palmar D key when all other near notes in the song were under this pitch. My instructor told me never to use the palmar D key in the 1st octave. The sound of the palm D key fingering seems to me much more similar to the sound of C or C# from the first octave than the sound produced by the regular D fingering.
Is it really wrong to use the D palmar keys (or other palmar keys) in the first octave? In any situation?

[ismail]

On my horn, the palmkey D sounds more open and thus also more similar to C# and so on.

But:
- Check Palmkey D Intonation on your Horn!
- My theory is, that the sound difference between D (normal fing.) and C# is based on more keys being closed with the D. So, the sound comes only from down below and doesn´t escape from the upper toneholes.
So, the sound difference the player perceives is much greater than the difference the audience hears or the difference on a recording (you could check that).
- I also think that it´s a good training to try to obtain a good, open sounding middle D sound.
- For very fast "D - a note below" switches, the palmkey might be useful, but that´s nothing you´ll need very often and i prefer the closed D in general.

bye.

[GeneraloftheSaxArmy]

The use of any keys isn't ever "wrong," just a choice. Open D gives a different sound, as you said, but sometimes it's easier. For a C to D back to C triplet in bebop, Bird style, it's much easier to use the palm E while holding the C to make the D: it's intonation isn't great, buty it's fast and no one will notice. Also, for a more open sounding D that's mroe in tune, finger low D and use pal key D too.

[Ari]

check your D with a tuner. If its in tune and you like the sound then go for it BUT whatch out ... some saxes can't play this fingering in tune - what happens if you have to change horns or are borrowing a horn?

[Morry]

My Keilwerth tenor has a fairly stuffy (and sharp) D2 when played using the conventional 123|123 fingering. I often use palm D because of that. The tuning on it is much better than the closed fingering. Tonally, however, I prefer the normal fingering. I'm trying to get in the habit of lipping it down instead of going with the palm D easy out.

[Saxophoneguy2001]

If you wanna play that D with a palm key, the palm Eb (assuming everything else is open and you're not already fingering another note) is actually a little closer in intonation to a D than the palm D is. But you'll wanna check with a tuner anyway. Just experiment with all sorts of combinations of using palm keys to play those notes. And experiment WITH a tuner.

[whaler]

Lsten to the first note that Joe Henderson plays on "Softly As In a Morning Sunrise" from the Larry Young recording Unity and you can hear how players use the palm D. He plays it, and then the "regular" D for a great effect.

[asaxman]

Try playing D2 - !23/ 123- High D, no octave key.

[asaxman]

On my horn, the palmkey D sounds more open and thus also more similar to C# and so on.

But:
- Check Palmkey D Intonation on your Horn!
- My theory is, that the sound difference between D (normal fing.) and C# is based on more keys being closed with the D. So, the sound comes only from down below and doesn´t escape from the upper toneholes.
So, the sound difference the player perceives is much greater than the difference the audience hears or the difference on a recording (you could check that).
- I also think that it´s a good training to try to obtain a good, open sounding middle D sound.
- For very fast "D - a note below" switches, the palmkey might be useful, but that´s nothing you´ll need very often and i prefer the closed D in general.

bye.
If you want the middle D to match the middle C#- finger the D, and lift the first two fingers of your left hand. Great for classical music, or ANY kind of music,( I suppose).

[asaxman]

Lsten to the first note that Joe Henderson plays on "Softly As In a Morning Sunrise" from the Larry Young recording Unity and you can hear how players use the palm D. He plays it, and then the "regular" D for a great effect.
This is one of the greatest CD's ever!!! But , does Joe use the high D, or 123/456-with the high D, and no octave key? This was a favorite of Coltrane.

[Saxophoneguy2001]

If you want the middle D to match the middle C#- finger the D, and lift the first two fingers of your left hand. Great for classical music, or ANY kind of music,( I suppose).

That actually doesn't work on the Series III, though, because of that extra vent key they put on there to try to get the C# more in tune. What I do if I want my tone on the C# to match something that's more covered, like D, or F# (if I'm in unison with a tenor sax, which that would be their F#), I keep the right hand down, but since that brings the pitch down, I also vent with side C to bring the pitch back up. Using that fingering for C# helps me match tone really well when I'm playing that in unison with tenor saxes.

[whaler]

This is one of the greatest CD's ever!!! But , does Joe use the high D, or 123/456-with the high D, and no octave key? This was a favorite of Coltrane.
He plays the palm D, then 123/456 with the octave key. You also hear a lot of players use "middle" C to the low C fingering with the octave key for same effect. Stitt, Ammons, Brecker, Dexter all used this. Joe was a master of false (alternate) fingerings.

[Johnnymo0829]

I find it all depends on the horn. On my tennor I almost always use the combination of the standard fingering for d in the mid staff with the addition of the high d key. I have an old 10m and I find it makes the note sing out more

[Volo85]

I broke my right hand recently, so the only way I play anymore is with alternate fingerings. I can't hit an F or F#, but I can hit everything else except lower notes. It's interesting, because I'm learning a lot of different stuff with my left hand that I didn't consider before.

Generally for a mid D I use the L2 C key with the palm E/Eb key. It's supposed to be a trill fingering, but if you put enough air through the horn, it's on pitch and the intonation isn't too bad on my horn.
I also use the palm F for Eb and lip that up for an E.

It really gives my left hand a workout. If anyone has any ideas on how to make onehanded playing a little easier, let me know.

[kavala]

There was a similar discussion recently in this thread....

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=51043

[DXCamp]

It would be to your advantage in the long term to practice standard D :line4: fingering especially working the break such as Bb :line3: to middle D, B natural to D, C :space3: to D, and open C# to D. Start doing this slowly at first then gradually build up tempo in both directions. This may seem to you to be taking forever, and boring, but it will be well worth the effort.8-). Pay particular attention to the intonation of the C# to D (half step) break because it may sound horrible to you and to anyone else within earshot.:shock: