Tenor Problems

[fballatore]

I did a search yesterday, and found a couple of threads that came close, but nothing specific.

I've played alto for a little over a year and a half, and have a tenor I picked up about a year ago thinking I'd learn to play that at some point. I feel good about the progress I've made on alto, so a couple of weeks ago, I pulled out the tenor and tried to play. It sounded horrible! Everything was stuffy, and no matter what I did with my embouchure, the notes below low F/E warbled terribly. It's the horn, not me, right? So I took the horn to my tech, who told me there were a number of things wrong with it. Pads needed to be reseated, keys adjusted, a couple of loose pieces soldered, etc. He was just finishing play testing it when I went in to pick it up. Boy did it sound sweet, even the low notes! I couldn't wait to get it home!! What a disappointment when I got home and tried to play. It sounded exactly like it did before I took it to the tech! Still can't be me, right? Well, of course I know it's me, and I know practice and long tones will get me there, but I can't believe I can't at least get a low note or two to pop out without the warbles. I'm using a Selmer S80 C* and a Meyer 6M with the same results. The only tenor reeds I have are Vandoren blue box #2. On alto, I get good results with my Meyer 6M and 7M, Lamberson and Morgan 7Ms with Vandoren V16 2.5 or 3 reeds. What should I try out on the tenor to get better results? (I'm not looking for a mouthpiece brand, just tip opening and reed strength.)

Thanks! (and sorry for the novel)

Frank

[AlistairD]

Frank,

Given the great progress you have made on Alto (and I'm jealous) why don't you try 1/2 dozen lessons on the Tenor?

[fballatore]

Alistair -

First of all, thanks (hmmmm, can't find a blush icon). My sax teacher is a high school band director; he takes off the summer and won't be back for a month. I do plan to work with him on this, but thought I'd get a head start.

Frank

[EZ]

Maybe try taking in more mouthpiece. An alto embouchure on a tenor is too short, so it's possible that you're not letting the whole reed vibrate.

[fballatore]

Ed -

Yeah, I tried that; I saw that in one of the other threads. I experimented all over the place. Still no luck.

Frank

[EZ]

Are you sure you're not using alto reeds? That would cause the problem, too.;)

[fballatore]

As my daughter would say, duhhhhh, yeah, I'm sure... ;)

Which led to my other question, I'm using Vandoren blue 2 strength tenor reeds. Should I try 2.5s? More open mouthpiece? Or will those exaggerate the problem?

Frank

[cleger]

Frank,

I am going to assume that you have been putting in lots of long-tones on tenor. If not, that should be your obvious starting point.

The other thing is that #2 reeds on a C* is a soft reed on a closed piece. I wonder if that along with an alto-oriented embouchure is causing issues? The C* is a nice forgiving piece to start with so I wouldn't switch that right away. What I would suggest is buying a handful of reeds in #2.5 and #3 just to see how they work out. Also you will have to consciously focus on loosening your embouchure when going to tenor. I still have my C* and I have pretty close to the same amount of time in that you do and to play my C* I would need at least a #3 in blue-box maybe even 3 1/2 (I play 3 1/2 in ZZ on the C* but they're a little softer apparantly).

As you well know, I'm no expert. Just some suggestions from a fellow traveller.

[jimmitch]

Frank get a high baffle piece and some ZZ 2.5 reeds. A tip opening of .078 or more and work like a dog and it will come.You need a lot of breath support to fill a tenor and a loose embouchure.Good luck.

[cleger]

jimmitch, I am certainly far from an expert but with Frank having problems on the low end of the horn wouldn't a high-baffle mouthpiece just exacerbate those problems? I have one mouthpiece that I would consider high-baffle and the low-end of the horn is always the part that is more of a challenge with that one. I think the C* with its small rollover and closed tip is one of the better pieces to work on breath support to get the low notes on tenor. This is all in the opinion of a sax-newbie so feel free to contradict.

[Dog Pants]

Frank,
First off, don't sweat it. lol. It's normal for most people to take a little while to adjust going from alto to tenor and vice versa. As stated above, a more relaxed embouchure and a bigger bite of the mouthpiece are a good start. What that implies is also a far greater amount of air support. I'd bet that this is the major cause of your low note hassles. The extra amount of air required on tenor is often underestimated. On alto, it takes less but faster air. It takes a while to learn to really use your gut to support the sound. If your doing it right and really breathing from the bottom of your gut, it will feel similar to doing a number 2. Sorry for the gross analogy, but that's as good a description as I've ever come across. You'll know it when you do it right. Not only will the low notes be a lot easier, but your sound will be bigger and more resonant. Stick with it.

[jimmitch]

I find that being able to sing down to concert low G or lower helped me to play the low notes on tenor.Celger I like high baffle pieces my wolfe tayne is not a high baffle piece and I remember it was easer to learn on.But in the end its all in the breath support.

[cleger]

But in the end its all in the breath support.

true enough!!

[AlistairD]

Alistair -

First of all, thanks (hmmmm, can't find a blush icon). My sax teacher is a high school band director; he takes off the summer and won't be back for a month. I do plan to work with him on this, but thought I'd get a head start.

Frank
Frank,

One tip my teacher uses to improve the tone is to play bottom C, B and Bb for 12-15 seconds each as softly/quietly as you can (and repeat a few time). His theory is that this ensures correct embouchure and breath support and then helps across the full range of the horn. I still find this hard especially to hold the Bb steady at very low volumes but it is helping m tone across the whole range of the horn.

[bartone]

Given the other suggestions listed and things you're doing, I'm fairly sure I agree with dog-pants. More air. MUCH more air. Make that horn sound like a fog horn on every note below G and play 'em long. Then play all your notes like that until your neighbors 2 blocks away complain. Long even loud (but you'll learn to control them) tones. Play your notes, scales, arpegios in a legato manner (play each note the full lenght). In tune. And don't forget, you're not taking a dump, you're using your diaphram to push the air. You should be able to push enough air make your neighbors complain after a clams and garlic dinner. You can't play and be timid! If a little wimpy girl like Candy Dulfer can blow a house down, then you can too. ;-)

Try that for a week, take two aspirins then call me.

Oh, and yes, I agree with high baffle mouthpiece. I play an 82Z with aPonzol 110 m S2, and it's almost as bright as a Guardala King, but not quite. Not Quiet either.

bart

[gary]

If a little wimpy girl like Candy Dulfer can blow a house down, then you can too. ;-)
Wish Marty was here. Then I could see him get banned all over again. :twisted:

A couple of random observations:
First, I think your reeds are too soft. I play a 3 or 3.5 on a C* and when I played my Meyer 6M, I used #3's. This doesn't mean that these strengths won't be a little too strong for you at the moment, but I do think they illustrate that 2 or 2.5 might be too weak for you.

I'm not sure the last time I read "get a high-baffle mouthpiece" as advice for someone who was having a problem with his sound. And expecially regarding low-note warbling. That would not be my first recommendation. In principle there should be nothing that can't be fixed with the mpcs you already have (assuming there is nothing structurally wrong with them).

Also, take a look at the angle of your mouthpiece/neck into your mouth. Some alto players play with the mpc/neck angled downward, while most tenor players don't.

[DJ TJ]

Hi Fballatore,

Over the last several months, I've learned that if one or more keys get slightly out of adjustment, how much pressure put on a key can make a difference on whether it seals or leaks.

So, if you play with a lighter touch than your repair man, this may explain in part why he got the low notes out and you are having some difficulty with them. Another factor that may be involved is that the felt of the pads may have de-compressed between the time you left the shop and the next time you played your horn. A teeny tiny imperfection in pad seating can cause very audible sound issues.

When I was shopping for my tenor, I noticed that it was difficult to play various low notes on several of the tenors that I tried that were not setup well, and it was obvious to me that these horns had significant leaks. On the few horns I tried that were setup well, the low notes were playable, even though my entire tenor playing experience was from play testing.

You might want to check your tenor with a leak light. I don't have a leak light, so I used a bright green rope light that I have, and it verified that I had a few leaks on my tenor.

In case your interested, here is some more info about my experience finding leaks on my tenor (http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=43118).

In my specific case, I was learning to compensate for a few leaks before I tracked them down, by using an extra loose embouchure, slightly harder reads, and increased pressure on a few keys (to reduce the leaks).

Now that my horn is seemingly leak free, the low notes are easy to play.

[fballatore]

Thanks again to everyone. I've used many of the suggestions here, and it's helping. I also found a Link STM that I had forgotten about (refaced by Mojo to .097) and a fibracell 2.5 reed. The warbles are mostly gone, and I can get down to Eb with no problems. Now, my biggest problem is that when I try to play low C, it jumps an octave. Back to the shed...

Frank

[Wonder woman]

Check out this other thread...might be some good suggestions for you here:
http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=42658

[SAXISMYAXE]

There is some useful advice in the above posts, and you should try experimenting with this information. Regarding the Tech and your horn, I will say that as a long time Tenor/Baritone/Bass player, I know all too well that it is very easy for someone with highly developed tenor chops to compensate instinctively for leaks and such that might hinder a less experienced player, especially in the lower range. I can pick up and play with minimum difficulty leaking horns that give the student player a nightmare, simply because of my long term developed control over air flow and embouchure etc.
It is possible that you are uncovering evidence of a leak(s) that the tech is missing simpy because he is blowing past the problem (pun intended) that is giving you so much trouble.

Of course I'm not saying that this is necessarily the problem, or even a contributing factor, but it is something to consider next time a tech swears that the horn has a clean bill of health contrary to your own diagnosis.

[jacobeid]

yeah read the thread that I posted. All the suggestions have helped a lot.

[UncleClark]

A couple things I have found that are helping me hitting the low notes.

* Slurring down. Start on "D", then slur down in half steps. When you get to a trouble note hold that one (long tones). This helped me understand how loose an embrochure is needed (pretty darn loose).

* Practice some songs that dwell in the low register. A couple from my method books. (national anthems)

Hatikva
O-Canada
Star spangled banner (start on middle Bb, don't go into the high register)