R1 Jazz Alto Keywork Sponginess??

[cannonball]

Hello,

I've read in numerous places about Rampone having a certain feeling of "sponginess" to their keywork. How bad is this problem? Does it pale too much in comparison to Selmer ref/serie III keywork? Or is it just a matter of getting used to it?

If the price wasn't an issue, what alto would you get, a ref 54 or the R1 Jazz?

Thks!

[selmerfan]

ref 54, played both
selmerfan

[bkiser]

Its noticeably spongy as delivered from the "factory". The Ref54 feels much better. Tenor Madness pulled out all the pads on mine and put them back in with lots o'shellac (as they SHOULD be) and there was no more sponginess. The main difference I notice now between the R1 Jazz and Selmers is the right hand position, which for me has just been a matter of getting used to.

These two horns are very similar in concept. I think that the R1J, when properly setup, has the advantage in sound and intonation, but Ref54 still holds the edge in ergonomics. Give the overall edge to whichever horn is setup better!

[selmerfan]

bkiser, I wondered if you'd chime in here. :) I tried mine out at Randy's, both set-up very well, but I'm just used to the Selmer sound and keywork, I just wish they'd left the Serie III keywork on the Reference body, but I'm getting it customized slowly but surely with my trust plumber's putty! I asked Randy about shellac/pad adhesives one day and about how much he uses. His method is to make the pads and tone holes perfectly level to one another FIRST, then to put a very thin, even layer of shellac in so as not to disturb the adjustment, then obviously let it dry and do the final adjustments. I know you were probably being a bit facetious with the "lots o' shellac" comment, but I thought I'd clear the air a little bit. :)
selmerfan

[Dave Dolson]

Cannonball: I own a Ref 54 alto and used to have an R&C R1 alto. In my view, the Ref 54 is the best alto made today (at least of the ones I've owned and or tested - Yamaha, Yanagisawa, Selmer, B&S Medusa, Serie III). DAVE

[cannonball]

Anyone for the rampone? Could the gold plating have a significant effect on the tone of the saxophone? Is the sponginess, that bad? THks!

[Dave Dolson]

Cannonball: Read the NUMEROUS discussions about finish and tone. No effect. DAVE

[Saxaholic]

Both horns have received rave reviews, both on and off this forum. However, they are completely different animals. I played a Reference 54 alto for a while...until I came across Martins (a vintage company). The Martins were the better horn for me, and I now own 4 of them, total.

Saxaholic

[selmerfan]

Saxaholic hit the nail on the head. He was playing one of the best (I think the best) alto on the market today, and he found something better that worked for HIM, must have worked well, he has 4! I finally settled in when I found the Ref 54, the Mark VI didn't quite do it, neither did the Serie III, but they were both great horns, I just found exactly what I was searching for in the Ref 54. All that you can do is try horns, if you think the R&C is where it's at, play a few against some of the other big makers and see what you think. It's like buying underwear, I'm sure I don't wear the same brand as you, but I sure like mine and I'm sure you like yours and they both get it done!
selmerfan

[Saxaholic]

Saxaholic hit the nail on the head. He was playing one of the best (I think the best) alto on the market today, and he found something better that worked for HIM, must have worked well, he has 4!

The Martin horns had everything I wanted. The tone was unbelievably rich and supple, but they also had tremendous power. Intonation was as good as any properly set-up alto, and the ergonomics are actually better for me (besides the pinky table). A VERY experienced friend ( 30+ years gigging pro) plays a Reference 54 alto...he tried my Martins and now wants one to play occassionally. He too liked the ergonomics just as much as his 54. He played Mark VI's for 25 years until he played a Reference alto...so that should confuse you somewhat. Hopefully. :twisted:

[/QUOTE] It's like buying underwear, I'm sure I don't wear the same brand as you, but I sure like mine and I'm sure you like yours and they both get it done!
selmerfan[/QUOTE]

You know...I think Hanes and Fruit of the Loom are turning the underwear world into a monopoly. Pretty soon they'll merge and we'll all be wearing the same underwear! :shock:

Saxaholic

[bkiser]

I guess my comment about "lots o shellac" was more of a reference to the complete LACK of it used by the factory which seems to be the cause of the spongy feeling. Randy puts enough in to hold the pads securely and it was one of the most noticeable improvements to the horn. Now, dont get me wrong, I really like the Ref54 alto also! But, when I played one, I guess it was just too similar to the S80 I had played for years, and it didnt just blow me away. The Rampone, after having the setup done, is just a beast. The tone is beautiful and just projects and fills up a room. Since the setup, it is much closer to the Ref than you might think. Very similar concepts, I think, just varying on the execution. I do think that the Ref is the better buy, especially if you factor in the setup work that it seems just about any Rampone will require.

[cannonball]

Hello, Thks for the feedback

Dave: I was under the impression that gold or silver plating definitely had a effect on tone versus lacquer, I didn't know it was a subject of debate. Since I'd never had the chance to try gold plating I wanted to hear other people's experience with the R&C. :)

Bkiser: I am curious, did you order your alto from the factory or did you get it from a store?

[Captain Beeflat]

For what it's worth; my R1 tenor has no spongy feel whatsoever....low, & very positive action. It has not been "set-up", it is just as it left the factory when I bought it two years ago.....this is how myths, either true or false, grow...repeat something often enough & it will become "true".
My horn is matte gold, & the difference in sound between it & a silver example is far less than the difference between two identical reeds....it's in the player.

[-88-]

I have a Rampone & Cazzani R1-J tenor and the keywork is solid. It was set up my Mathew Aaron at SaxForte. Love that horn. Solid. zero sponge. I wonder, since my tenor R&C is after they redesigned the neck joint whether there were other adjustments done to the keywork.

I also have Dave Dolson's Rampone & Cazzani R1 Alto that does not feel to me to be spongy in the least. What do you say Dave....go ahead you won't hurt my feelings if you disagree. After all you're much more experienced on alto than I'll ever be. Solid little horn, silver plated beauty visually and aurally too. Dave do you know who, if anybody set that horn up?

[Captain Beeflat]

88...My Rampone & Cazzani tenor was purchased through "saxophones UK". The box had not been opened by them...I received it as it left Italy; & it was perfect. Why should it need "setting up" when it had been made and assembled by a company which has been making saxophones for a longer period than Selmer? Perhaps the only reason for a dealer to interfere with the set-up would be the unlikely case of damage in transit......maybe, of course , the dealer is more skilled than the dedicated factory!

[cannonball]

Hello,

Captain Bb: in fact, my first indication of the "spongy" feeling came from the sax tests posted at the Saxophone UK site, where you got your horn... they say:

"As for the action and ergonomics of the R1 jazz, this is where I have minor reservations. The keywork feels solid enough with nicely dished pearls on the keys but there is a slight sense of spungyness."

-88- : So in your opinion you got a good setup from them?


I would like to know if you have owned other pro horns to have a fair comparison on the R&C keywork and tone...

Thks guys, I appreciatte your help.

[JMac]

Perhaps, being made in Italy, and being hand made - the key set-up depends on how much Brunello the craftsmen had with his lunch that day ;) ?

The R1 Jazz curved soprano I play does not have what I would consider to be spongey key-work. I am not the original owner, but I believe he purchased it direct from the factory with some special options. There are a couple of spots that are not as tight as, say, the keywork on my Antigua - but not bad enough to warrant even having a tech look at it... ymmv?

[Captain Beeflat]

Cannonball....You name any of the accepted classics & I have either owned it or played it....The R&C is up there with the best...think Conn 10M with Selmer keywork.

[saxforte]

Rampone & Cazzani use Pissoni Pro pads in their R1 and R1 Jazz saxophones. These pads are made in 3 different levels of hardness, based on the type of felt backing used.

Why 3 different levels of hardness?
Because everyone has a different opinion of how a saxophone should feel under the fingers. Witness the discussion in this thread to prove the point.

R&C select the middle level of hardness based on their own preferences. Keilwerth buy the identical pads but select the hardest level of pad. Play a Keilwerth back-to-back against a R&C and you will notice differences.

Hardness provides a more positive feel and also more pad noise. (thuck)
Pad softness provides a quieter action, and a softer feel (thup).
Both provide excellent playing saxophones, but with perceptible differences in feel and pad noise.

Mathew Aaron

[Morry]

Keilwerth buy the identical pads but select the hardest level of pad.

Plus, they order them "extra sticky".

[Captain Beeflat]

Mathew....Your posting explains all...well done.

[Captain Beeflat]

Mathew...Just clicked on your site & browsed through the delightful & very interesting photographs of your tour of the factory. The very apotheosis of the expression "hand made"...nothing seems to have changed there since the middle of the 19th century, absolutely exquisite.

[Stan]

Hey Captain Beeflat,
that is not the Mathew's tour, it is a link to "my personal web site" containing two Virtual Tours in the Italian saxophone factories!!!! ;)

http://www.hobbysax.com/R&C.html

http://www.hobbysax.com/Borgani.html


Stan

[Captain Beeflat]

Stan....Abject apologies....you are right to point this out.....absolutely delightful...you are to be heartily congratulated.
Difficult to spot where R&C's museum stops & current production begins...so refreshing to know that saxophones are still made like this.

[Stan]

I completely agree with you they make wonderful saxophones :)

Stan

[saxforte]

Morry, Actually pad stick on JK horns with tone hole rings is due to surface tension and it can be frustrating to resolve if you chase the wrong problem. I made a detailed post about the 3 different kinds of pad stick and their unique solutions elsewhere on this forum that wil be helpful to you.

R&C horns do not experience the same pad stick issues because they use straight tone holes.

[saxforte]

Captain Beeflat,

Thank you for the compliment. It is appreciated. And grazie to hobbysax.com for the wonderful work too!

[Dr G]

pad stick on JK horns with tone hole rings is due to surface tension...

R&C horns do not experience the same pad stick issues because they use straight tone holes.

Conns with rolled tone holes do not experience pad stick because they don't use J-K pads. ;)

[Dr G]

Kidding aside, here's the link to Mathew's post regarding sticking pads:

http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=304330#post304330

[Morry]

Morry, Actually pad stick on JK horns with tone hole rings is due to surface tension and it can be frustrating to resolve if you chase the wrong problem. I made a detailed post about the 3 different kinds of pad stick and their unique solutions elsewhere on this forum that wil be helpful to you.

R&C horns do not experience the same pad stick issues because they use straight tone holes.

Mathew, I saw the post and agree to some extent. However, my JK tenor's pads were sticky from the first moment it was unboxed when new. They continue to stick today. They stick when I pull the horn from the case, but can be freed up. They then stick again once the pads get moist, as you pointed out in your post. I have an SX90R alto that sticks when it comes out of the case, but then is stick free once I start playing.

I have talked to other guys whose horns no longer stick after padding with Roo pads. I guess I'll see when my horn is finished next week.

[saxforte]

Morry,

""However, my JK tenor's pads were sticky from the first moment it was unboxed when new. ""

MA: That is what I described as Type 1 sticking and all saxophones do this when the horn is put away with wet pads that dry against the tone hole.

""They stick when I pull the horn from the case, but can be freed up. ""

MA: That is also Type 1 sticking.

""They then stick again once the pads get moist, as you pointed out in your post. ""

MA: That is also Type 3 sticking, unique to tone hole ring or rolled tone hole horns.

""I have an SX90R alto that sticks when it comes out of the case, but then is stick free once I start playing.""

MA: That is also Type 1 sticking with no Type 3 sticking.

In other words, all of the examples you have cited are consistent with what we see.

Try blotting the pads befoe putting the horn away with BG's Pad Blotters to prevent Type 1 sticking.
http://saxforte.com/accessories/care/swabs/swabs.html#a65s

Use clean pad papers or clean paper to scrub pads and then powdered pad papers to prevent Type 2 sticking.
http://saxforte.com/accessories/care/pad_papers/pad_papers.html

Use the following solutions, as needed, to prevent Type 3 sticking...
a) increase spring tension. e.g. Bis key springs on JK horns are a little light and can be pre-loaded to improve the force needed to overcome Type 3 sticking.
b) VERY lightly sand lacquer on tone hole tops only, with #360-400 grit paper to minutely roughen the tone hole surfaces. Finer grades will not be effective as they polish more than roughen.
c) Use a drop of key oil on the pad tone hole seats to epel water. It works amazingly well.
http://saxforte.com/accessories/care/key_oil/key_oil.html

Enjoy your Keilwerth saxophones!

Mathew