my tenor playing makes me want to throw the horn off a cliff

[jacobeid]

I have had my tenor for almost four months. I do 30 minutes of long tones on it each day. I STILL can't get anything below D1, and everything above sounds god awful. Easily one of the worst (if not the worst) playing I've ever heard. I've brought my tenor to two of the best players/teachers in town and nobody can find nothing wrong with what I'm doing. I've had my horn in the shop..should be in perfect condition and my teacher can play it fine. I've played a perfect condition Mark VI and an SBA and had the same results.

Seriously, should I just quit? It's at the point of frustration where I wish I had never even tried to play it. I'm not exagerating. It is the worst I've ever heard. I am pretty sure most 6th graders just starting sound better. I have a great (in my opinion and my bandmates) sound on alto and soprano, and clarinet is getting there too, but tenor just WON'T happen.

If you guys would like me too, I'll record some, but be prepared to stab your eardrums with a pencil.

[saxmanandrew]

I had the same problem for about a week. What i realized is that you cant make it sound like an alto. Tenor saxophones have a unique sound and you therefore cannot play them like an alto. So what you have to do is loosen your embouchure up a ton, then you have to take in more mouthpiece and in no time flat you'll be blasting out the low notes. Also you may want to try a more open mouthpiece maybe a beechler 7 or 8 and im sure that the armstrong sax isnt helping you out any either.

Cheers

Andrew

[jacobeid]

I had the same problem for about a week. What i realized is that you cant make it sound like an alto. Tenor saxophones have a unique sound and you therefore cannot play them like an alto. So what you have to do is loosen your embouchure up a ton, then you have to take in more mouthpiece and in no time flat you'll be blasting out the low notes. Also you may want to try a more open mouthpiece maybe a beechler 7 or 8 and im sure that the armstrong sax isnt helping you out any either.

Cheers

Andrew

I've been doing all the things you suggest.

Also as I said, it's NOT the horn. I sounded just as crappy on a perfect condition Mark VI and a perfect condition SBA.

[saxymanzach]

Just keep at it. That's all the advice I can give. Please post a recording so we can better 'diagnose' your problem.

[saxmanandrew]

ok well in that case try this: with only the mouthpiece and a tuner and try to produce a concert G if your pitch is higher than a G direct your airstream down. If it is lower than a G direct your airstream up then maintain the same mouth, throat position and attach the moutpiece to your saxophone now with the same air stream blow into the sax. Your sound will probably be opened up a bit if you werent doing things right before. Then maintaining a loose embouchure and lots of moutpiece and a lot of breath support try for the low notes. Also when you try to hit the low notes what happens? Does the piece close off or does it just make a terrible sound? You could also try playing a scale down chromatically starting on C in the staff. Maybe harder or softer reeds depending on what happens when you try to play low if you get a nasty sound then softer if you have the reed close of then harder. And check it with a more open mouthpiece

[jacobeid]

ok well in that case try this: with only the mouthpiece and a tuner and try to produce a concert G if your pitch is higher than a G direct your airstream down. If it is lower than a G direct your airstream up then maintain the same mouth, throat position and attach the moutpiece to your saxophone now with the same air stream blow into the sax. Your sound will probably be opened up a bit if you werent doing things right before. Then maintaining a loose embouchure and lots of moutpiece and a lot of breath support try for the low notes. Also when you try to hit the low notes what happens? Does the piece close off or does it just make a terrible sound? You could also try playing a scale down chromatically starting on C in the staff. Maybe harder or softer reeds depending on what happens when you try to play low if you get a nasty sound then softer if you have the reed close of then harder. And check it with a more open mouthpiece

I'll try all those things and post back. When I try and go lower, it just squeeks up an octave. If I use ANY harder of a reed, I can't get anything to come out at all. The only way I can hit them is by barely having an embouchure at all, and blowing fortissimo. Wouldn't a more open piece make it even harder to control and harder to play?

[saxymanzach]

How many mouthpieces have you tried? When Ifirst started out playing bass clarinet, I was using a Vandoren mouthpiece and I could not make a sound at all. I could blow as hard as I could and no sound would come out. But then I tried a Brilhart Elobin that was owned by the school and my tome was AMAZING!

[jacobeid]

How many mouthpieces have you tried? When Ifirst started out playing bass clarinet, I was using a Vandoren mouthpiece and I could not make a sound at all. I could blow as hard as I could and no sound would come out. But then I tried a Brilhart Elobin that was owned by the school and my tome was AMAZING!

I've only played the jumbo java. It's what came with the horn. I am trying to sell it though and try something else.

Edit: By the way, I am getting a near perfect concert G with just the mouthpiece, and when I play, I'm playing extremely flat. I push the mouthpiece as far in as possible (past the cork) and it's still 20 cents flat.

[jacobeid]

Here are some clips I made..sorry about the quality. Don't worry, I sound NOTHING like this on alto, sop, or clarinet. Turn your volume WAY down btw..I had to blast for the notes to come out.

For the tests I used two reeds. A vandoren java 2 1/2 and a vandoren java 2 1/2 shaved down a little bit. The shaved down version is what I'll call the "softer reed" and the out of the box reed will be the "harder reed."

Softer reed overall test play: Click here to watch soft-reed-test (http://media.putfile.com/soft-reed-test)
Harder reed overall test play: Click here to watch harder-reed-overall-test-play (http://media.putfile.com/harder-reed-overall-test-play)

Softer reed-circle of fourths exercise (thinking about trying to get notes to come out, not the actual notes ;) ): Click here to watch circle-of-fourths-tenor-soft-reed (http://media.putfile.com/circle-of-fourths-tenor-soft-reed)
Harder reed-circle of fourths excercise (same as above): Click here to watch circle-of-fourths-hard-reed (http://media.putfile.com/circle-of-fourths-hard-reed)

Softer reed-trying to play low notes softly (starting on F1): Click here to watch softer-reed-soft-low-test (http://media.putfile.com/softer-reed-soft-low-test)
Harder reed-trying to play low notes softly (starting on F1): Click here to watch harder-reed-soft-low-test (http://media.putfile.com/harder-reed-soft-low-test)

As you all can obviously tell if you listened to any of it, I have trouble with not only the low range but with the whole range of the horn, and breath support with the harder reed. Also stabalizing pitch with the softer reed. Also..I don't mind if you bash the playing. I too think it's the worst tenor sound in the world.

Any ideas now?

Jacob

[Ruediger Kramer]

try and try it again: less force the low tones - more force the higher octave... buy the reeds, you use for alto, for tenor. try other mouthpieces later, first you should get some normal tones.

(first i wrote, then i saw your last post, bad, what i´ve heard, but - please - try it again and again)

[jacobeid]

try and try it again: less force the low tones - more force the higher octave... buy the reeds, you use for alto, for tenor. try other mouthpieces later, first you should get some tone.

I use the same reeds on my alto, sop, and tenor. All 2 1/2's and I shave all of them down a tiny bit.

[jacobeid]

try and try it again: less force the low tones - more force the higher octave... buy the reeds, you use for alto, for tenor. try other mouthpieces later, first you should get some normal tones.

(first i wrote, then i saw your last post, bad, what i´ve heard, but - please - try it again and again)

What would you suggest trying? I've been trying for 1/3 of a year and I think it's actually gotten worse..

All of my other horns sound good or great so this is VERY frustrating.

[Ruediger Kramer]

well, one should see (and hear) what you are doing there with the tenor. isn`t there a sax-teacher, you could consult?

[jacobeid]

well, one should see (and hear) what you are doing there with the tenor. isn`t there a sax-teacher, you could consult?

I've met with my teacher, and two of the great performers/teachers in town. None can find anything I'm doing wrong. No one can figure it out, which makes it all more frustrating.

[SAXISMYAXE]

Besides the setup recommendations (MP/Reed/Lig), you need to work on supporting your air stream with the Diaphragm and really filling the horn with air (this doesn't mean blowing harder/forcefully however).Think of voicing ahhhh while filling the horn, and avoid moving or changing the jaw position to compensate for any of the horns range, including the altissimo. It's all done primarily with the air stream/oral cavity/throat, like a vocalist. Another tip is that most Tenor players take more of the mouthpiece into the mouth than Alto or Soprano players, and you should play around with both this, as well as possibly extending your jaw a bit forward with your Tenor Embouchure.
When attempting to get the lower range, you should blow very warm air, with a wide open throat and oral cavity. One way this is taught is to visualize trying to hit a spot some distance away in your practice area with your air stream.

Additionally, I'm almost positive that you are biting to compensate for weaker lip muscles with your embouchure: Your jaw should be quite slack, with your lower lip muscles/air support/oral shaping supporting and doing the job of fine tuning and refining the tone.
Don't expect to be able to use the same reed strength (or facing size for that matter) with every horn/mouthpiece of even the same model/facing. Most tenor players (myself included) use a larger tip opening/softer reed combination than on Alto.

[Ruediger Kramer]

then play on - may be for a while only using the tenor could help (until you feel it...)

[jacobeid]

Besides the setup recommendations (MP/Reed/Lig), you need to work on supporting your air stream with the Diaphragm and really filling the horn with air (this doesn't mean blowing harder/forcefully however).Think of voicing ahhhh while filling the horn, and avoid moving or changing the jaw position to compensate for any of the horns range, including the altissimo. It's all done primarily with the air stream/oral cavity/throat, like a vocalist. When attempting to get the lower range, you should blow very warm air, with a wide open throat and oral cavity. One way this is taught is to visualize trying to hit a spot some distance away in your practice area with your air stream.

Additionally, I'm almost positive that you are biting to compensate for weaker lip muscles with your embouchure: Your jaw should be quite slack, with your lower lip muscles/air support/oral shaping supporting and doing the job of fine tuning and refining the tone.
Don't expect to be able to use the same reed strength (or facing size for that matter) with every horn/mouthpiece of even the same model/facing. Most tenor players (myself included) use a larger tip opening/softer reed combination than on Alto.

I've noticed a small bit of biting, but nothing extremely major and I'm working to get that out of the way. It's weird because my embouchures on my sop, alto, and clarinet are all good. I'll take my horn with me to lessons tomorrow and see if we can try and find the culprit.

[SAXISMYAXE]

A lot of Alto & Soprano players sneak by with biting habits and or a Clarinet style embouchure, and blowing with the lungs alone and not the diaphragm, than is found on the larger horns (as you have discoverd, if you do so with Tenor, you won't have much success playing the entire range fluently). Playing Tenor, or even more so- Baritone, is often a good acid test to determine this.
The Tenor is a cat of a different breed, and really requires a strong embouchure and good breath control to get good results. Better that you discover this now, than lock in any bad habits for the rest of your life.

Get your Tenor sound/technique in order, and I assure you that your Alto/Soprano tone will improve beyond what you thought possible as well.

[jacobeid]

A lot of Alto & Soprano players sneak by with biting habits and or a Clarinet style embouchure, and blowing with the lungs alone and not the diaphragm, than is found on the larger horns (as you have discoverd, if you do so with Tenor, you won't have much success playing the entire range fluently). Playing Tenor, or even more so- Baritone, is often a good acid test to determine this.
The Tenor is a cat of a different breed, and really requires a strong embouchure and good breath control to get good results. Better that you discover this now, than lock in any bad habits for the rest of your life.

Get your Tenor sound/technique in order, and I assure you that your Alto/Soprano tone will improve beyond what you thought possible as well.

How should I go upon doing all this? Any breathing exercises? Obviously I'll work on strengthening my embouchure and tone with even more long tones than I'm doing now.

[SAXISMYAXE]

The most complete and concise assemblage of the necessary techniques and exercises can be found in the often recommended THE ART OF SAXOPHONE PLAYING by Larry Teal (EVERY saxophonists really should have a copy of this player's "bible" anyway).

[danerida]

It sounds to me like you have a couple of "issues" that can be sorted fairly easily.
Firstly, and many will disagree, I believe that learning to play any saxophone with a small chamber and high baffle mouthpiece is asking for a harshness of tone, and difficult response in the lower register. The small chamber will also cause a thinning of the upper register if you are not seasoned in the subtleties of throat adjustment for tenor (these exist on alto as well but are slightly different). I would suggest a meyer or a morgan 6 or 7 medium chamber, or if you prefer metal otto link 6 - 7, and work purifying and focussing your tone with long tones, not running scales or technical work (save that for your alto where you are comfortable, finger technique is basically the same as tenor). If you want the modern sound keep the jumbo java and come back to it when you are happy with your ability to control your tone.

Secondly, What i realized is that you cant make it sound like an alto. Tenor saxophones have a unique sound and you therefore cannot play them like an alto. So what you have to do is loosen your embouchure up a ton
This, in general, is good advice, but I believe in your case it is causing your problem. If you play a very long sustained note say a B :line3: Can you control it? Can you play loud and soft? Crescendo and then decrescendo? When you can do all of those things, play that note and hold it. While holding it think about your embouchure, what does it feel like? Stop the note. Keep the same embouchure position, and immediately play a low B :lowbd:
Loosening your embouchure works if you are using a Large tip softish reed set up. In your case a Jumbo Java T45 is not a really open mouthpiece. It is also part of the subtone technique, which in your recordings is what you are producing in some of your low tones. Support the reed for full tone and fill the horn with air. It is a much bigger instrument than your alto and requires a lot more air to play with full tone.
I hope this helps you, it has worked many times for my students.
Keep us posted on your progress.
Good Luck
Dan

[Baje]

Forget the advice. The tenor sax is a dog. If it doesn't like you, it'll frustrate you like forever. Mine doesn't like me either.

I've been trying now for 50 years and still can't be consistently happy. I practise alto and sop maybe 1 night in 10 and they're always spot on. Practise tenor 9 nights out of 10 and it'll make you feel great for one or two. Then it goes back to its lousy self, same mouthpiece, same reed.

That's why players have many more tenor mpcs than alto. Tenors are in cahoots with Babbitt Bros and Berg and keep making you want to try something else. Then they get a commission and spend it at Kentucky Fried Chicken. I've seen 'em.

But, like with women, we love them and have no choice but to keep trying.

Good luck!

[jacobeid]

It sounds to me like you have a couple of "issues" that can be sorted fairly easily.
Firstly, and many will disagree, I believe that learning to play any saxophone with a small chamber and high baffle mouthpiece is asking for a harshness of tone, and difficult response in the lower register. The small chamber will also cause a thinning of the upper register if you are not seasoned in the subtleties of throat adjustment for tenor (these exist on alto as well but are slightly different). I would suggest a meyer or a morgan 6 or 7 medium chamber, or if you prefer metal otto link 6 - 7, and work purifying and focussing your tone with long tones, not running scales or technical work (save that for your alto where you are comfortable, finger technique is basically the same as tenor). If you want the modern sound keep the jumbo java and come back to it when you are happy with your ability to control your tone.

Secondly,
This, in general, is good advice, but I believe in your case it is causing your problem. If you play a very long sustained note say a B :line3: Can you control it? Can you play loud and soft? Crescendo and then decrescendo? When you can do all of those things, play that note and hold it. While holding it think about your embouchure, what does it feel like? Stop the note. Keep the same embouchure position, and immediately play a low B :lowbd:
Loosening your embouchure works if you are using a Large tip softish reed set up. In your case a Jumbo Java T45 is not a really open mouthpiece. It is also part of the subtone technique, which in your recordings is what you are producing in some of your low tones. Support the reed for full tone and fill the horn with air. It is a much bigger instrument than your alto and requires a lot more air to play with full tone.
I hope this helps you, it has worked many times for my students.
Keep us posted on your progress.
Good Luck
Dan

First off..I know I really need to pick up LT's book.

When I first got my tenor, a lot of people told me thata high baffle piece wouldn't be good to start on. This is the only high baffle piece I've played. Depending on what my teacher recommends (because he's the one who knows me and can see what I'm doing) I might try and get a less "exotic" piece, such as a hite or another student piece to help learn.

As with the controling 3rd line B and such. I can control and stabalize the pitch MUCH easier on a harder reed, but the softer reed sounds better. Maybe I should work at playing the harder reeds and getting them to sound bigger and more full? By the way, that's the technique I used when I started long tones on my other horns and it works great, but I haven't tried in on tenor.

I'm going to be trying all the suggestions you guys posted and I'll let you know what has been happening. I think I'll take off some alto time (I've been playing 3-4 hours of alto a day, plus 30 on my other horns so I may bump tenor to 60 or 90).

[saxymanzach]

That's why players have many more tenor mpcs than alto. Tenors are in cahoots with Babbitt Bros and Berg and keep making you want to try something else. Then they get a commission and spend it at Kentucky Fried Chicken. I've seen 'em.


Really? I have 3 Mpcs (2 I never use) for alto, and 1 for tenor and 1 for sop. And I consider myself a tenor player. I guess there are exceptions.

[Wonder woman]

Even though you are frustrated, don't give up!!!
What i realized is that you cant make it sound like an alto. Tenor saxophones have a unique sound and you therefore cannot play them like an alto. This is sooooooooo true. I actually played tenor for 4 years before I played an alto, so I actually had some of the opposite problems that you're experiencing. Even though I started on tenor, if I haven't played it in a few days I still find myself having to get back into the low register slowly.

Keep working on going down chromatically and the advice from danerida is right on. Don't loosen up the embouchure. Stay firm, just think of more air support.
A really great exercise my professor taught me to get the low register more solid is to try playing all from :space3: down to :lowbd: with the octave key on. Make the note speak in the range its written. This will sound AWFUL trust me, but then when you try to play the note without the octave key, you will definitely hear improvements in your low register. I guarantee it. (This also works well for any of the horns).

DON'T GIVE UP!!!!:)

[Carl H.]

A quick trick which has worked for my students is to visialize the the bell as not being right in front of you, but in the far corner and support the sound to that corner.

Give it a try, who knows?

[Morry]

One thing I would suggest...stop playing soprano and clarinet completely until you've either gotten your tenor sound sorted out, or given up on it completely.

[jacobeid]

One thing I would suggest...stop playing soprano and clarinet completely until you've either gotten your tenor sound sorted out, or given up on it completely.

In turn, wouldn't I lose my soprano and clarinet chops I've worked hard to get/working to get?

[saxmanandrew]

In turn, wouldn't I lose my soprano and clarinet chops I've worked hard to get/working to get?

I doubt it...i can go months without playing a tenor then if my band teacher needs me to i just haul out the moutpiece and i can play on it. Conversely i can pick up a soprano or clarinet no problem...by the same token the soprano and clarinet shouldnt hurt the tenor that much. Its all in breath support especially based on the fact that you are flat no matter what you do i would say that you definitely need more support. Again that doesnt meen loudness it means there needs to be faster air going into your saxophone. You really have to work on breathing from your diaphragm. There is a website although i dont know which it is that goes into this technique in depth. It is a trumpet website and the technique is by bobby shew try to find it and follow his directions. Also that very loose almost no embouchure that you are describing is about what it will feel like when you go from soprano to tenor. My friend showed me a trick for playing bari: he told me to play then he said no your embouchure is to tight. Then he put his hand up to his mouth and jiggled his cheeks. He said that is how loose it needs to be. Sure enough nice fat sound on the bari as soon as i loosened up. Additionally i definitely think you are not taking enough moutpiece. If you look at stan getz or a number of other players it looks like they are about to swallow the mouthpiece. You want as much vibration on there as is physically possible. Also drop down to a 2 on tenor that may help generally when you are starting you need to drop a half strength do that for six weeks (the reduced reed strength) keep up the long tones and you'll be set.

Cheers

Andrew

[AlistairD]

A really great exercise my professor taught me to get the low register more solid is to try playing all from :space3: down to :lowbd: with the octave key on. Make the note speak in the range its written. This will sound AWFUL trust me, but then when you try to play the note without the octave key, you will definitely hear improvements in your low register. I guarantee it. (This also works well for any of the horns).

I agree, this is a great exercise, encouraging playing with an open throat...

[ismail]

Hmm I can´t give you any substancial technical advice...but maybe it´s a psychic thing???
I don´t wanna patronize you, but I´d feel frustrated too, if I was a good alto/sop/clar player and had to struggle that much on tenor.
I´m sure you know mostabout diaphragm, embouchure and so on, but to me you sound a bit as if you neglected just to RELAX before playing, don´t start it as if you had to lose something (image, self-conciousness, whatever...).
THAT could hamper even the best player, I guess...

Just a guess.

bye,
Ismail

[jacobeid]

Very possible. Over the summer, I start with alto for a few hours, great. Clarinet for 30-45 minutes, getting better everyday. Soprano for 30ish minutes, great. I start playing tenor and within 5 minutes my whole good mood is thrown down the drain.

I'm going to take some time off alto (still practicing 2 hours each day) and put more towards tenor and work on breath support and embouchure. Hopefully something will happen. Hopefully it will be good.

[Ruediger Kramer]

5 minutes for tenor are not enough...

[jacobeid]

5 minutes for tenor are not enough...

That's not what I meant. I get at least 30 a day on tenor. I was saying that after 5 minutes though I get extremely frustrated which probably just hurts the other practice time.

[saxmanandrew]

Just relax, dont be tense, the same way you get the altissimo working...it may be frustrating but, you have to turn the frustration into determination and excitement that you will one day be a great tenor player, and by the way if you throw that horn off a cliff itll prolly survive and be back to haunt you...armstrongs are built like tanks :P

Cheers

Andrew

[Ruediger Kramer]

my tenor playing makes me want to throw the horn off a cliff - do it or sell it or practise a few hours a day...

[Dr G]

A lot of Alto & Soprano players sneak by with biting habits and or a Clarinet style embouchure, and blowing with the lungs alone and not the diaphragm.

Exactly my thought as well when I read that sop, alto, and clarinet are working but not tenor. I'd further posit that these teachers are also mainly high reeds players too.

Be open to completely revisiting your thoughts about embouchure, air stream, and breath support. The tenor deserves the special attention. As Sax' said, once you get the tenor dialed in, your efforts will be rewarded with increased richness in the sound of your sop and alto. Clarinet has its own embouchure.

[rim shot]

jacobeid,

If you are serious about continuing on tenor, then obviously you are going to have to get a more "standard" type mouthpiece to develop your sound. someone suggested an Otto Link (metal) 6 or 7 and I agree with that approach- though you may have to try several facings to find a similar amount of resistance to what you are used to playing on the other horns.
It is almost impossible to make intelligent recommendations on your set-up without knowing what mouthpiece facings/reeds/etc. you play on other horns as well as your level of abilty on them.

But this is a prime example of the amount of time and practice that one has to invest when attempting to reach out to other horns and find a tonal concept that works. Keep at it- you should be able to make it work.... but get a different mouthpiece and you should be able to progress more rapidly.... and stop sounding like a chain saw. Good Luck.

[ismail]

Still, you should see that the Tenor isn´t a completely different instrument...
It´s just a differently sized alto, that needs a bit of a different approach.
But you have the skills to play Alto and so you should "know" that you can play Tenor by just adjusting to it as necessary.
Going for it with knowing that you can do well one day will help much I think.

[Lazy3oy]

I've tried the tenor once, amazing instrument (no name tiawanese/chinese model with a Selmer Goldentone MPC and Rico 2.5).

They're right in saying that you can't play it like an alto (but a lot of the basics I use on the alto also apply to the tenor) You should play with an open throat, and a very loose embouchure. Your playing, for some reason, sounds a LOT like the tenor we had in 8th grade. Very harsh.. almost quaky, no offence :(

I think it's the way you're blowing into your horn.. that's the only thing that would explain it. Are you sitting up straight? LoL idk what other advice there is.. i'm pretty new. Longtones DEFINATELY work, the affect they've had on my alto playing is very noticeable, and I have (almost) no problem hitting all notes from Bb to F#

Good luck, the tenor is an awesome instrument
(which i can't play unfortunately.. everyone keeps telling me to stick to alto :\ because they like the sweeter 'lyrical' sound better then the low smoooooth tenor)

[jacobeid]

Your playing, for some reason, sounds a LOT like the tenor we had in 8th grade. Very harsh.. almost quaky, no offence :(

No offense taken. I'm in the same boat as you. I'm trying to trade my vandoren piece in the marketplace if anyone is interested..

[saxymanzach]

Now that i have heard all of the symptoms of Jacob's problems, hee is what I think:

jacobeid,

If you are serious about continuing on tenor, then obviously you are going to have to get a more "standard" type mouthpiece to develop your sound. someone suggested an Otto Link (metal) 6 or 7 and I agree with that approach- though you may have to try several facings to find a similar amount of resistance to what you are used to playing on the other horns.
It is almost impossible to make intelligent recommendations on your set-up without knowing what mouthpiece facings/reeds/etc. you play on other horns as well as your level of abilty on them.





I don't want to start any theory wars here, but buyng something like a new, expensive mouthpiece is not going to help. Especially when that mouthpiece is an Otto Link, one of the hardest mouthpieces to master, IMO. There's nothing that not "standard" about the Vandoren mouthpiece. If you have trouble playing an one mouthpiece, WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD YOU GO BUY ANOTHER FOR $100+ THAT IS EVEN HARDER TO PLAY?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Jacob, I think that you are doing yourself a favor by trading your Vandoren for a student mouthpiece. That will allow you to really learn to play the horn easier.

Good luck with your Tenor Tootin'!

[jacobeid]

Now that i have heard all of the symptoms of Jacob's problems, hee is what I think:





I don't want to start any theory wars here, but buyng something like a new, expensive mouthpiece is not going to help. Especially when that mouthpiece is an Otto Link, one of the hardest mouthpieces to master, IMO. There's nothing that not "standard" about the Vandoren mouthpiece. If you have trouble playing an one mouthpiece, WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD YOU GO BUY ANOTHER FOR $100+ THAT IS EVEN HARDER TO PLAY?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Jacob, I think that you are doing yourself a favor by trading your Vandoren for a student mouthpiece. That will allow you to really learn to play the horn easier.

Good luck with your Tenor Tootin'!


Of course. I'm not going to get something harder to play in hopes it will make me sound better. That's just stupid. Student pieces were designed for beginners to learn how to play. Even though I'm experienced on my other horns I am a beginner to tenor. That's why I am getting a STUDENT piece, and a good one at that.

Jacob

[rim shot]

saxymanzach: I don't want to start any theory wars here, but buyng something like a new, expensive mouthpiece is not going to help. Especially when that mouthpiece is an Otto Link, one of the hardest mouthpieces to master, IMO. There's nothing that not "standard" about the Vandoren mouthpiece. If you have trouble playing an one mouthpiece, WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD YOU GO BUY ANOTHER FOR $100+ THAT IS EVEN HARDER TO PLAY?!?!?!?!?!?!?!


Perhaps I should have stressed this point a bit more strongly:

It is almost impossible to make intelligent recommendations on your set-up without knowing what mouthpiece facings/reeds/etc. you play on other horns as well as your level of ability on them.

Of course, a beginner on the saxophone should not go out and buy the same types of mouthpieces that most players move into after years of playing.
Now, I beg to differ on the jumbo java... it is a non-standard type of mouthpiece, IMO . Saxymanzach, have you actually played one of these?
Somehow I get the impression that you haven´t because otherwise you would understand what I was talking about- they are designed for Rock players- high baffle, loud, edgy and sound pretty bad in the low register.

And I disagree that a Link 6 should be so hard for someone to grow into- esp. for someone who has been playing the alto saxophone for... well, let´s say 5-6 years. In the case of jacobeid, as I stated before:

It is almost impossible to make intelligent recommendations on your set-up without knowing what mouthpiece facings/reeds/etc. you play on other horns as well as your level of ability on them.

Beginners should get good quality mouthpieces that are suitable for beginning players. I do strongly agree on that point.
Good luck with whatever mouthpiece you decide on. I´m outta here.

[jacobeid]

Perhaps I should have stressed this point a bit more strongly:



Of course, a beginner on the saxophone should not go out and buy the same types of mouthpieces that most players move into after years of playing.
Now, I beg to differ on the jumbo java... it is a non-standard type of mouthpiece, IMO . Saxymanzach, have you actually played one of these?
Somehow I get the impression that you haven´t because otherwise you would understand what I was talking about- they are designed for Rock players- high baffle, loud, edgy and sound pretty bad in the low register.

And I disagree that a Link 6 should be so hard for someone to grow into- esp. for someone who has been playing the alto saxophone for... well, let´s say 5-6 years. In the case of jacobeid, as I stated before:



Beginners should get good quality mouthpieces that are suitable for beginning players. I do strongly agree on that point.
Good luck with whatever mouthpiece you decide on. I´m outta here.

My setups are as follows:

Series III/Big B alto; Morgan "vintage" 6; vandoren java 2 1/2 (shaved)
LA sax soprano; Super session I; vandoren java 2's
Noblet 40 clarinet; Noblet 2 mouthpiece; rico royal 2 1/2's.
Armstrong tenor; Vandoren Jumbo Java T45; vandoren java 2 1/2 (some shaved some not).

[jacobeid]

^^What are you talking about?

[HeavyWeather77]

Post deleted by Saxismyaxe due to insulting content[.

Yeah, that's pretty out.

[jacobeid]

Yeah, I don't even get what he's trying to say. If he's telling me I'm a crappy tenor player..yeah...everyone knows that know.

At least all the other people made suggestions that actually helped and I now have a student sized piece on the way that should help me a bit.

[CircaRevival]

What mpc did you buy?

4C is still over here :)

[jacobeid]

What mpc did you buy?

4C is still over here

Actually a REALLY nice guy offered to send me his C* that he used when he was in the same situation as me that his teacher gave him. I'm probably going to use that for awhile until I get used to tenor then donate the C* to the forum and buy a morgan.

[AlistairD]

Actually a REALLY nice guy offered to send me his C* that he used when he was in the same situation as me that his teacher gave him. I'm probably going to use that for awhile until I get used to tenor then donate the C* to the forum and buy a morgan.

Jacob,

Keep going with the Tenor, I'm sure it will be worth it in the end (IMHO the best sound of all saxes.. but that's just my opinion.)

If the Selmer mouthpiece doesn't work out I'd try a Yamaha, cheap but very good student pieces, I used to have a 5C...

[jacobeid]

Jacob,

Keep going with the Tenor, I'm sure it will be worth it in the end (IMHO the best sound of all saxes.. but that's just my opinion.)

If the Selmer mouthpiece doesn't work out I'd try a Yamaha, cheap but very good student pieces, I used to have a 5C...

I'd be surprised if the C* didn't help me learn the instrument easier.

[barisaxbeast]

Mind you, I know a couple tenor players that should be thrown of a cliff.....................There again on top of a cliff is probably the best place for them.....after all they've got sounds like distressed seagulls........!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SAXISMYAXE]

Yeah, I don't even get what he's trying to say. If he's telling me I'm a crappy tenor player..yeah...everyone knows that know.

At least all the other people made suggestions that actually helped and I now have a student sized piece on the way that should help me a bit.
Yes Jacob, I'm sorry you had to be submitted to that. I deleted the first comment before anyone got a chance to see it yesterday, I see he didn't get the message. I've taken care of it.

[jacobeid]

Thanks Mike, I appreciate it. My C* should be here in the next day or so, and I'll let you guys know how it goes. Thanks for all your help/advice. I now sort of feel the need to post a clip of my alto or sop playing to redeem myself ;)

For the record, I played my teacher's piece last week, and I sounded a hell of a lot better. Obviously still not great, but I could definetly tell that the vandoren wasn't helping me. I think it was an older brilhart of some kind, but I didn't get a good look at it.

[Ruediger Kramer]

if it doesn´t work, do what you promised...

[swede_peter]

A really great exercise my professor taught me to get the low register more solid is to try playing all from :space3: down to :lowbd: with the octave key on. Make the note speak in the range its written. This will sound AWFUL trust me, but then when you try to play the note without the octave key, you will definitely hear improvements in your low register. I guarantee it.
DON'T GIVE UP!!!!:)

Yes! I also got this lesson from my teacher. I takes a while to master, but when you can do it, its like magic, low B and Bb works lika a charm.. :D

/Peter.

[jacobeid]

Yup got the C* today. Perfect condition with a brand new rovner dark lig and a cap. Thanks Bumblebee. I appreciate it.

HUGE difference. Low notes spoke well and a lot easier down to mp (need to work on it some more). I got some squeeking and flatness in the upper register, so I do need to get harder reeds, which I expected. I'm pretty sure it will sound good while I work on my tenor skills. Thanks guys for all your suggestions. I'll be trying the exercises you all posted and I hope it helps. I know the mouthpiece REALLY did..

[SAXISMYAXE]

Good for you Jacob, I'm glad to hear it! To those who posted mean (and meaningless) insults (all of which have been deleted) instead of helping, maybe it isn't the horn that needs to be launched off of that cliff.:x

[CircaRevival]

Yup got the C* today. Perfect condition with a brand new rovner dark lig and a cap. Thanks Bumblebee. I appreciate it.

HUGE difference. Low notes spoke well and a lot easier down to mp (need to work on it some more). I got some squeeking and flatness in the upper register, so I do need to get harder reeds, which I expected. I'm pretty sure it will sound good while I work on my tenor skills. Thanks guys for all your suggestions. I'll be trying the exercises you all posted and I hope it helps. I know the mouthpiece REALLY did..

Sounds awesome man, post some recordings when you're up to it. :cool:

[AlistairD]

Good for you Jacob, I'm glad to hear it! To those who posted mean (and meaningless) insults (all of which have been deleted) instead of helping, maybe it isn't the horn that needs to be launched off of that cliff.:x
Ahmen to that....

[Baje]

"maybe it isn't the horn that needs to be launched off of that cliff." SOTW moderator.

With due respects, SOTW moderator, I've been standing under this g-damned cliff for two weeks now waiting for that tenor. Leave the man alone.

[jacobeid]

Give me a few months to really work on controlling the horn before I post up some more audio clips. Just trust me that the sound went at least from a 6th grader to a sophmore. I think most of the frustration is over now :D

[SAXISMYAXE]

"maybe it isn't the horn that needs to be launched off of that cliff." SOTW moderator.

With due respects, SOTW moderator, I've been standing under this g-damned cliff for two weeks now waiting for that tenor. Leave the man alone.
You need a free tenor horn that bad?:twisted:

[Bari Playa]

Idk if this will work for you but it did wonders for me. I started begining band on tenor and could not play low. For intermediate band i switched to bari and played that as a main(and got good imho). now my tenor playing in the low range is great because of the amount of airsupport bari takes. I have a tenor with a very large bore so it takes more air and I can blow down to low Bb with ease. Try it it might work.


BARI PLAYA

[jacobeid]

my sax teacher talked about letting me borrow his bari and playing it for a few weeks exclusively and then coming back to all my other horns and hear the difference.

[Al Stevens]

Sounds like you're on the right path. Thanks to everyone who gave positive suggestions. This isn't a suggestion, just a word of encouragement from someone who went through exactly the same thing.

I started on sax about 2 1/2 years ago. I had exactly the problem you describe in your post and sounded about like what you posted. I was ready to hang it up, too.

What helped me was a regimen of the following:

1. breathing exercises.
2. long tones.
3. Frequent exercises going down to the low notes from slightly higher ones.
4. Whenever I got a low note sounding good, I held it for a long tune, to try to burn into my muscle memory and brain what it felt like.
5. Holding the right index finger up and popping it down just as the note is about to sound.

I was working with an Otto Link tone edge 7* and La Voz MS.

It's easiest first thing in the morning.
It's harder when your chops are tired.
It's a lot easier when I pop the C* in with a Vandorn 3. I could've gotten there quicker if I stayed with that combination, but it isn't the sound I want.

What I've noticed is that as my chops get stronger the low notes I can get consistently get lower. FWIW, unless I really anticipate it and get a firm hold on the mouthpiece, jaw set properly, and a belly full of air, I can still make crappy sounding honks instead of low Bs and Bbs.

It is taking me longer because of age. At 66 one's body doesn't change as rapidly as it does when one is young. I'm guessing that if you work at it, you'll have the low register under control in a month or two, maybe less. I'm hoping I live long enough. :)

[txsphere]

Just put the horn aside and use the mouthpiece. I think the hardest thing about picking up a new horn is having to deal with that initial beginners sound that can really get on your nerves.

If you have not done this type of exercise before just use the mouthpiece and reed blow. Don't worry about what note comes out just get a tone. This will take some experimentation but it can happen for you. Once you get a tone match it on the piano or use a tunner that tells you what note your playing. Tune the note with your tongue like you are whistling then lip or more appropriately voice the note down in half steps. Again having a piano for this is excellent. It is slow work but a wonderful embouchure builder and note having to listen to the horn may be alot easier. As you get more range on the mouthpiece play major seconds, minor and major thirds, etc.

Alot of people talk about particular notes for different horns but I have a range of an octave to a major 9th depending on the reed. This is also a great way to start your practice on any sax, it really sets the embouchure.

You have gotten some great advice, particularly putting more air in the horn at the bottom, but ultimately a mouthpiece will not nearly do as much for you as a few hundred hours of intelligent study and practice.

Just my $3.00

[GeneraloftheSaxArmy]

If it's this hard for you to play tenor, maybe the Saxgod is trying to tell you that you were never meant for it. Instead of putting all your energy into something where you have no future (as it seems right now), pratice the saxes you can play; half the effort you use for the tenor on the other saxes would shoot you to another level.

[saxymanzach]

If it's this hard for you to play tenor, maybe the Saxgod is trying to tell you that you were never meant for it. Instead of putting all your energy into something where you have no future (as it seems right now), pratice the saxes you can play; half the effort you use for the tenor on the other saxes would shoot you to another level.

I'm guessing that you have not even read the past 10 posts.

[Off-kilter]

Hey,JACOBEID,
I had much the same problem when I switched from alto to tenor. Upper notes were hopelessly flat and lower notes were whatever came out at random, seeming to have no relationship to where my fingers were placed.Of course I wasn't all that hot on alto either but this was really bad.Once I learned to relax and to FILL the horn with air ( it's a bigger horn and takes more )my tone improved exponentially. That was how I discovered I was tooting into my alto from the top of my lungs instead of pushing air through it with my diaphram.Your mouthpiece may have a bit to do with it and changing it will probably help you get a handle on it but the best advice I've seen you get was from SAXISMYAXE. From what I heard,you need to re-evaluate how you blow into ( think blowing through ) your horn.Long tones and breathing exercises will pay you huge dividends and you'll see an improvement in your tone on your other horns too. You may in the end even decide that the tenor is not for you ( just not your sound or whatever ) but you will never regret the mastery of your breathing you will derive from learning to play it.Best of and keep at it.

[jacobeid]

Yeah man, it's been improving a lot but I haven't had a lot of time to work on it. It's almost to the point where everything speaks well, now I just need to work on some intonation and defining my sound. I can say though that alto and clarinet will always be what I hear for me.

[calisax]

Hey bro, attitude has a huge affect on what you'll produce. Tenors are extra sensitive to that. Maybe you should try practicing longer than 30 minutes at a time, take it slow; good warm up with scales and tonguing exercises in the beginning, then choose a couple of melodies to master. Take a break from the notes on the page for a bit and play by ear a little, improvise. Don't give up!

[jacobeid]

hey guys, give me a few days and I'll have time to post up a few more clips. I think you'll all be pleasantly surprised. It's not where I want it, but it's a hell of a lot better than it was, and a lot of it is due to all of your suggestions.

When I switched teachers, I started taking lessons from the best player in town. He gave me some tips, and one that I think is very valuable. He said I was trying to play the tenor like alto, but I needed to play the tenor like tenor. Corrected my emouchure a tiny bit and then it was just long tones from there..

[jacobeid]

As promised..a few recordings.
http://media.putfile.com/darn-that-dream-29
http://media.putfile.com/boplicity

Yeah, I'm aware that there is a large absense of style, feel, dynamics, and a lot of other important elements. At this stage, I'm still working on getting a feel for the horn and learning to control it, then I'll add on everything else. Thanks everyone for your suggestions..just go back and listen to the results from the first page up to this post. Amazing really.

[AuntSaxophone]

A lot of Alto & Soprano players sneak by with biting habits and or a Clarinet style embouchure, and blowing with the lungs alone and not the diaphragm, than is found on the larger horns (as you have discoverd, if you do so with Tenor, you won't have much success playing the entire range fluently). Playing Tenor, or even more so- Baritone, is often a good acid test to determine this.
The Tenor is a cat of a different breed, and really requires a strong embouchure and good breath control to get good results. Better that you discover this now, than lock in any bad habits for the rest of your life.

Get your Tenor sound/technique in order, and I assure you that your Alto/Soprano tone will improve beyond what you thought possible as well.

You know, I totally found that to be true when I switched from Bari so I could go back to Alto... I remember my first attempts on low notes on the Bari were horrible. And I'm a small person... Sheese, the Bari is nearly as long as I am tall. Anyway, apart from barely being able to hold a Bari up and play it standing up, I think that after all the practice I've done on it, I'm pretty good . I suppose I'd have a little trouble if I were to suddenly go back to playing the Bari though. It's been so long.