Review: Saxgourmet Tenor

[morgan]

I played the new Saxgourmet tenor and was quite impressed.
Intonation is razor-accurate.
Keywork is comfortable, and the thumbrest is very very nice, removing a lot of stress on the RH.
Response is as easy as you could ask, including altissimo notes that just sing out effortlessly.

What I particularly liked was that the horn was generous in offering a range of voices. You can whisper gently. Give it a little more muscle and it gets full and serious. Crank it some more and you can turn it either into a screamer or a balladeer or a R&B belter depending which way you handle it. It seems like it would give a really big emotional range.

Background:
I have played saxophone at a 'weekend pro' level for 30 years, and play mostly tenor.
I do not work for, employ, or have trade agreements with LA Sax , Sax Gourmet, or Steve Goodson.

For more details on this model
http://www.lasaxophones.com/saxgourmet.htm
http://www.saxnation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=74&sid=6632007398b7257630d1332358541523

[retread]

Intonation is razor-accurate
This is a saxophone? We must, indeed, be living in an age of miracles. Or hype.

[saxymanzach]

You should be impressed at the fact that you recieved it.

[morgan]

razor sharp ... hype

Okay, for the language-challenged: Intonation ranks at 97th percentile or better among horns I have played. Happy?

[hornimus]

How much? Morgan did you buy the tenor?

[morgan]

Didn't buy it - - I already have a tenor, and in order to improve my sound I am inclined to do more practicing than spending.

[jazaddict]

I am inclined to do more practicing than spending.
What the..???

How the heck are you gonna function in our need-it-now, keep-up-w/-the-Jones, microwave, instant-message, throw-more-money-at-problems society, huh? HOW?
;)

[Morry]

Didn't buy it - - I already have a tenor, and in order to improve my sound I am inclined to do more practicing than spending.

Boy, are you ever on the wrong forum. :-)

[gary]

Yeah, Morgan, get a life!

:D ;)

[mvspur]

As promised, I finally had the opportunity to play the Saxgourmet line of saxophones. I spent 3 hours with Steve and the Saxgourmet horns at the TBA Convention here in San Antonio. I spent a significant amount of time with both the alto and the tenor respectively and I have to tell you that I just might have played some of the finest saxophones I have ever held in my hands.

What I am about to say holds true for both the Alto and Tenor in the Saxgourmet line. While we can honestly say what works for some, may not for others when discussing horns, pieces, reeds, etc, I promise you this: No matter who takes these for a spin, they will unanimously agree on my findings.

I paid particular attention to these aspects of the horn as they are important to me.

Aesthetic Quality - How does the horn look just sitting there on the stand?
-----------------
If you can imagine a glowing heated peace of metal, that's what these horns remind me of. The copper content is so impressive, to say the least. Steve said they put a very thin clear coat over it to keep it from turning as copper would if left raw. This horn is georgeous with very nice engraving too. I really loved the abalone key touches.


Ergonomics - How does it feel just holding it? How are the keys positioned relative to my hand size? How flexible is this to adjust to someone who may have smaller/larger hands than I do?
----------
I have always found fault with at least one thing on every horn I have had the pleasure of playing throughout the years. This is truly a constant. It has either been the left and/or right-hand pinky keys, the lower right hand stack rotated too far over "to the right" causing discomfort on the thumb. Steve actually measured all of his student's hands to get an idea of what he felt would be a good model for key positioning. I think folks with large or small hands will find this horn very much to their liking. Speaking of the right hand thumb: I will be putting a Saxgourmet thumb rest on every one of my horns ASAP. I can't believe how long I've gone without experiencing how comfortable that little piece of ingenuity is! Ok....back to the horns. Imagine a Selmer Mark VI in absolute perfect adjustment, but only better. I'll comment on the action in the next section. You also get your choice of three positions with the three-ring strap clip. I liked the middle one, myself.


Key Action - How is the spring resistance? Too Heavy? Too Light?
----------
The action on this horn is slicker than greased owl poop, but with just the right amount of resistance. I ran through some fast scales and arpeggios and it was right there with me the whole way. I have absolutely nothing negative to say here. The horn will play faster than I can, for sure.


Response - How much effort is required to get the horn to speak?
--------
This was probably the most impressive aspect of the horns to my taste. They speak incredibly well from the very top to the very bottom. I will go on record and say that I have never played a horn that was as effortless to play in the notes below the staff. You can easily get a low Bb out at ppp if you so desire. AND NO WARBLING!!! If I understand correctly, the rifling in the neck has a great deal to do with this. I was really blown away by consistency of sound production at varying levels of air support.


Intonation - How well does the horn play in tune with itself? Palm Keys? Middle D? Open C#? Low C# thru Low Bb?
----------
Ever play a saxophone that played low-middle-high D effortlessly AND in tune? Yes, I said it.....MIDDLE D IN TUNE! This one does! Man, the D above the staff is dead-on accurate as well! Open C# speaks very clearly and in tune. I've already praised the lower end of the horn for it's ability to produce sound. The notes are very well in tune as well.


Price? - How much will it cost me to own one?
------

If my memory serves me correctly, (and I'll apologize in advance if I'm wrong)

Alto lists retail for $5950 - can have for around $4200
Tenor lists retail for $6150 - can have for around $4500

They ain't cheap, but judging from my experience, they stand up to the price tag.

The guys told me that anything you've seen on WWBW so far has not been accurately represented. The proper info and photos were sent. I believe the corrections are suuposed to be made.


For those of you that have read any of my other posts regarding how much I truly enjoy the horns I presently own, I have to tell you....these Saxgourmet horns have me thinking again. I will honestly say that horns I played are just as good if not better than anything on the market today. To quote Steve: "This horn is everything the Mark VI should have been."

I hope you will find this information useful. I wanted to follow up with you guys and give you my impression of the horns, as I promised I would do. Please do not trash my level of enthusiasm. I was not paid to be this excited about the horns. They speak for themselves, plain and simple.

Have a great day all.

Mike

[Mark5047]

Mike,

I am sure others will be jumping on you - but let me first off thank you for your review. I know you are already a fan of the company doing the distribution, and I also know we agree on the quality of the LA Sax brand... That being said, I do have a few things though that I would like to point out.
First off, the closest you came to saying anything negative was They ain't cheap
Well, I find it hard to believe price is the only downside to this instrument. What would YOU change about it if you could? Also to be honest, I really doubt I would part with that kind of money for an instrument and not have it be a Ref 54 or something else with a real reputation backing it.
Please dont take this as being critical, just being honest.

[gary]

Thanks for taking the time, Mike. I might've read right over it, but I didn't notice tone. Bright-dark, thin-full bodied? More akin to a Yamaha than a Paul Mauriat? Can you give a little more info on this most important aspect? Thanks.

[Dr G]

Aesthetic Quality - If you can imagine a glowing heated peace of metal, that's what these horns remind me of.

Ergonomics - I think folks with large or small hands will find this horn very much to their liking.

Key Action - The action on this horn is slicker than greased owl poop, but with just the right amount of resistance.

Response - They speak incredibly well from the very top to the very bottom.

Intonation - The notes are very well in tune as well.

Price? - They ain't cheap, but judging from my experience, they stand up to the price tag.

For those of you that have read any of my other posts regarding how much I truly enjoy the horns I presently own, I have to tell you....these Saxgourmet horns have me thinking again.

Bonus points for exercising your creative writing skills!

To answer Gary's question, I'd guess that it'll sound just like you want it to. It's the true chameleon horn - it fits everyone, will make everyone sound great.

The real test will be when people actually buy these horns, play them long enough to learn what they are about, and then commit to the Goodson horns by selling their Mk VIs, Super 20s, etc. I'm sorry that Steve's previous venture didn't work out. I'd really like to see these come off as advertised and wow the market.

Hmmm, what would Grumps say?

[mvspur]

Gents,

After reading back over my post, I realized I left the tone part out, so I'll pick up at that point and then try to find a negative aspect for you so that I don't lose what tiny amount of credibility I have.

Tone - In my mind, these horns have a voice that is big and rich with just the right amount of edge. I played my usual setups on each one. You guys know that the player's choice of setup has alot to do with this so I'm not even going to go there.

To recap:

Alto - Meyer 6M/Olegature/Vandoren ZZ #3
Tenor - Link STM 7*/Olegature/Vandoren ZZ #3

I'm sure you could shove an old C* with a blue box #4 reed and Rovner dark ligature on this horn and it would do just fine. However, that sound is not for me. My evaluation leaned more to the jazz tonal quality of the instrument. It's a very free blowing horn as well.

My time on the alto was mostly spent playing Charlie Parker tunes from the Omnibook or playing bebop duets with this cat that walked up and started playing the horns while I was there.

My time on the tenor was mostly spent playing old jazz standards from the 40's & 50's and a few contemporary tunes. I threw in a few gospel things that came off really nicely.

Ok.....I found a negative (if you can even call it that). I asked Steve if he planned to offer an array of finishes with this horn and I learned that what we see is what we get. Having said that, and after listening to his reasoning, I have to say it makes sense.

Here it is:

The copper content is so high with this horn that it stands out from anything else on the market. I have not seen another horn that looks like it yet. I swear it glows. He feels that this is a good thing and I would have to agree to some extent. At present, he doesn't want to cover it up with another color lacquer or plating.

I'll be real honest with you, though. I'd like to see this horn in either all sterling silver, sterling and gold, or black nickel and sterling. I'm a fan of those finishes if they are done properly. I see on the web that a silver neck might be available for it. Man, it would really scream then.

So, for what my opinion is worth (probably not that much, to most of you), you now have it. I am not employed by these people. I'm just a friend who gets an opportunity from time to time.

Thanks for indulging me.

Mike

[Dr G]

The copper content is so high with this horn that it stands out from anything else on the market. I have not seen another horn that looks like it yet.

I see on the web that a silver neck might be available for it. Man, it would really scream then.

So what makes you think the copper content is so high? And so what if it is?

Your statement regarding necks is really telling to me. That a horn would scream just because its neck is (or looks) silver.

Thanks for keeping us up on the progress of the horn however.

All the best to you and yours.

[Grumps]

Hmmm, what would Grumps say?
Now that the horns are out in public, is it indicated where they are made anywhere on the horn? Can you (mvspur) now tell us?

[gary]

Cummon Grumps. Does it matter if it's made in Tasmania if it's an excellent horn? You're just trolling for yet another way of quibbling if SG is being forthcoming about all the info or not - another shot across the bow of the man's credibility, as it were.

:D Don't deny it. We're on to you, dude. :D


George - there are credible players here who swear that the neck is vitally important and who use either alternate manufacture necks or after-market necks and some of them (as well as pro players) use silver necks. I don't think morgan's statement necessarrily calls into question his judgement.

(Personally, I ain't gonna put out several thou on a horn and then go out and buy another neck; seems to me it should be understood that a quality neck is provided with a pro instrument.)

Mike - personally I don't care if you're Valdemort's mother. You have given a good description and like most such descriptions here, it is subjective and the reader is at liberty to take it or leave it. I appreciate the chance to read someone's -anyone's- take on a new horn. It seems that lately no one can post a thanks for a retailer or info about a new product without taking a beating for it. I for one appreciate it when someone takes the time to do so.

Phew! I must be out of my ever-lovin' mind, disagreeing with both grumps and george at the same time.
There will be a price to be paid. :violent1:

[Mark5047]

Mike,

Thanks for the update. I still think he is starting at a VERY high price point. Maybe they should take an example from the cannonballs / antiguas / jupiters of the world and make them priced 'reasonable' until a real reputation is developed - THEN go for the jugular!
Just my 2 cents. And to be honest, there is ZERO chance I would part with 5 heavy unless I play tested one and was able to buy the one I tested - and even then, well time will tell how they hold up.
Seriously though - if anyone else gets a chance to play test this, other opinions would be welcome......

[Grumps]

Cummon Grumps. Does it matter if it's made in Tasmania if it's an excellent horn?
If Tasmania had been known for producing fine professional horns, then no, it wouldn't matter. Thing is, one insider claimed PRC, which up to this point hasn't been known as a producer of fine professional horns. In fact, they're known for producing the complete opposite. A valid issue, I believe; and one that's put more than just the designer's credibility on the line.

[mvspur]

I knew when I did this that I would take a beating.:cry:

Regarding the silver neck. I believe that is really just a matter of preference. Come on guys.....was there something wrong with the original neck that came with Michael Brecker's Mark VI to make him go to a silver one? I think not. There is obviously a nuance that he prefers with that silver neck. Anyone who knows anything about saxophones and metalurgy will tell you that silver livens up the sound. That's why people like it so much. Why is the original Super 20 with the sterling neck worth so much more, or in higher demand?

You guys probably have forgotten more than I will ever know regarding saxophones and their history.

Play the horns and be your own judge. I offered my honest opinion. If you get your hands on one and relegate it to "clinker" status, then come here and post that I'm full of crap and I obviously know nothing about anything. You are entitled to do so. I doubt very seriously that you will have that experience. As for me, all it took was the opening riff to "Parker's Mood" to make me smile.

[Grumps]

Play the horns and be your own judge.
Thing is, not everybody can get into these trade shows to see them. Are they available anywhere else, or do you have to order them sight unseen? Were they selling them at the event where you tried them, or taking orders for sale? If they were taking orders, were they asking for deposits?

[Dr G]

George - there are credible players here who swear that the neck is vitally important and who use either alternate manufacture necks or after-market necks and some of them (as well as pro players) use silver necks.

No argument, Gary, that some credible players choose to use proven aftermarket gear. To judge that a horn is going "scream" just because it's neck is silver is a long reach. If if came with a Gloger or Boesken silver neck, that would be one matter but if the neck comes from an unproven maker of questionable experience, it just doesn't matter what the material is. I'm guessing this horn falls somewhere between those two extremes.

There, I said it - material doesn't matter :D (especially if the design is flawed).

[Morry]

Thing is, not everybody can get into these trade shows to see them. Are they available anywhere else, or do you have to order them sight unseen? Were they selling them at the event where you tried them, or taking orders for sale? If they were taking orders, were they asking for deposits?

You're right. A couple of hand-tweaked horns does not a product line make.

[hgiles]

I am interested in where these horns are made as well. The price seems high for a new (unproven) line. There are way too many good horns out there at half the price to just throw this kind of money at an also ran.

This review has me a bit mystified actually.

[Mark R]

was there something wrong with the original neck that came with Michael Brecker's Mark VI to make him go to a silver one?


Actually I think I recall either someone telling me or reading that the original neck suffered from "pull down" and Michael's main reason for using the silver neck is not because it plays better than the original but that the angle of it is more comfortable for Michael VS the pulled-down original neck. This is hear-say so if someone else knows other actual facts VS this bit of info please offer it up.

[Dr G]

Given that neck angle is fairly consistent (moreso that interior dimensions), I find it hard to believe that he didn't make sure that the silverplate neck plays well too - at least as good as, or better, than the bent one it replaced.

[jimmitch]

I paid $4500 for an Oleg tenor at the time I did not know that it was maybe made in Taiwan.Now I think it was although I cant get a clear answer.Would I have plaid that much if I knew that, maybe not.It does look and play great but he said it was custom made.It cant be custom made if it made in Taiwan. I have seen a lot of horns from there that look the same just engraved different.They should have to label these horns made in Taiwan so we know were there made.

[JNAORPH62]

Mike

Hey, just wanted say really enjoyed having you at our booth for the TBA conference in San Antonio.

A Two Thumbs up on the Saxgourmet review you posted!!!!!! They really are GREAT HORNS!!!!!!!!!!!

Although I did not realize you would have to face an Iraqi war situation on a sax forum regarding a saxophone that just might be the next Mark VI.

Again GREAT JOB!!!!!!!!!! And Thanks a bunch for your honesty and knowledge!

P.S. Those of you wondering who I am you may contact me at 800-821-9448 if you have any questions regarding these horns.

Cheers!

[Grumps]

Although I did not realize you would have to face an Iraqi war situation on sax forum regarding a saxophone that just might the next Mark VI.
If folks like you (and you do sell them) didn't so agressively push them with such unrealistic expectations, I'd suppose there wouldn't be any problems.

[JNAORPH62]

Hey, I understand your frustration! All I ask is that you don't smack something down to the ground without trying one first!

That's all!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers!

[Morry]

Hey, I understand your frustration! All I ask is that you don't smack something down to the ground without trying one first!

That's all!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers!

But you must realize that when previously unknown posters show up to hawk some new widget, it makes people suspicious.

[Randall]

Been reading this thread and while I have no definite info on the origin of the horns, HOWEVER, looking at the the type/style of stamp that the serial numbers are made with, I would suspect they are made in the PRC.

I have a pretty good eye for type fonts the Chinese use and the serial numbers on these horns look typical of PRC produced goods. If I could actually see the box the horn came in with stenciled lettering I could tell in an instant.

So for now, it is just an opinion.

Does that mean it is a bad horn?

I will be the first to say wait till you can try one before you judge. I know from personal experience that there are some Taiwan horns that are killers now, and I have some very knowledgable and talented friends who are telling me increasingly good things about newer PRC horns.

When I play them, I will know for sure, but until then....:)

[schneidt]

So back to the original subject of this thread, has anyone had the chance to try one of these horns. There's a dealer near me that used to carry LA Sax but they don't seem to carry them anymore. I'm certainly not going to special order one since I wouldn't be able to return it if I didn't like it. Currently I'm out of the horn market, but if I was in the market, I'd see if I could try one out. (I played everything, and I mean everything I could get my hands on when I was looking for my horns)

[Morry]

So back to the original subject of this thread, has anyone had the chance to try one of these horns. There's a dealer near me that used to carry LA Sax but they don't seem to carry them anymore. I'm certainly not going to special order one since I wouldn't be able to return it if I didn't like it. Currently I'm out of the horn market, but if I was in the market, I'd see if I could try one out. (I played everything, and I mean everything I could get my hands on when I was looking for my horns)

The last time a bunch of people pre-ordered an SG endorsed product sight unseen it didn't work out so well.

[schneidt]

Are these horns not in the hands of dealers yet? I assumed by now they would be. (I haven't been following this thread closely so please forgive my ignorance.)

[Harri Rautiainen]

Are these horns not in the hands of dealers yet? I assumed by now they would be. (I haven't been following this thread closely so please forgive my ignorance.)For anything designed or associated with Steve Goodson, never send any money in advance.

That is the lesson learned by some of the SOTW members a hard way.

[Randall]

Well, with great sadness I have to add to this thread a bit more.
I have been a participant on the saxgourmet board and the saxnation board as well as here and others. So I have never really taken much of position on others experiences with Steve Goodson, and preferred to only rely on my own dealings and take the advice of others into consideration.
So, I just received the totally (uncalled for) following email from Steve directly The subject line of the mail reads as follows:

IS THE TYPE FONT POST ON SOTW YOURS?

Then the body of the email:

Hello Randall Pennington,

The following is an email sent to you by admin via your account on Sax Nation. If this message is spam, contains abusive or other comments you find offensive please contact the webmaster of the board at the following address:

steve@saxnation.com

Include this full email (particularly the headers). Please note that the reply address to this email has been set to that of admin.

Message sent to you follows
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If so, please see my response on this forum in the Saxgourmet heading. If not, my sincere apology.


Site Admin


So I went to the saxnation site and found, first, that I could no longer post there (so much for the insincere apology over any confusion about who I am! lol). Seems da judge and jury are one person indeed. So I have not replied to the administrator directly.

Then I read the following, which totally misses the mark of my post (which I must again say was an opinion)....he is talking of the engraved logos, etc...

The whole tone of this tends to make me think that my suspicion is indeed correct. But, as I stated before these are only my thoughts/opinions expressed on this forum, something that seems lost on Steve.

That post is copied for your enjoyment, below:


Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 96
Location: New Orleans


Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:45 am    Post subject: Logos, typefonts, and serial numbers



They're at it again over at The Saxophone Misinformation Site, and I want to correct something that was said. A poster there states that he's able to tell from the logo typefont the nation of origin and that these look like they're from the PRC. This is, of course, not correct. I've examined all of the pictures we have released, and none of them show anywhere near that sort of detail. But then, maybe my eyes are failing. Or possibly someone wishes to simply imply something that is not correct. I don't know the answer, but here's the full and complete story on the logo and the typefont used.

The logo was designed by Dr. Mike Tyner of Birmingham, Alabama in 1995 and has been in continuous use on my Saxgourmet brand products since 1995. Dr. Tyner was my first webmaster and is a citizen of the USA and has always resided here. The rest of the typefonts were added to the logo here at my temporary office in New Orleans using Adobe Photoshop 7. After all of this material was put together, a template was made and examples of the engraving were sent to me for my approval. At no time did any of this originate anywhere but my office.

We use boxes that we buy from UUline in Dallas, Texas. As far as I know, the boxes are made and printed in the USA. The horns come to us bulk packed in plain air freight containers.

The serial numbers on the Saxgourmet horns (the source of the typefont is Adobe Photoshop 7) all begin with the same four digits. These four digits are my wife's birthday. The horns are then sequenced according to production order. There is no distinction between alto, tenor, or soprano horns as far as serial numbers go.

As always, I am happy to answer any questions, and am always eager to put a stop to incorrect speculation.
_________________
Steve Goodson
Forum Owner and Benevolent Despot,
Saxophone Guru and Visionary


Frankly, I am through with this.
8-)

[retread]

He cleverly avoids the issue of where the horns are made.

[schneidt]

Yes, he does avoid addressing the issue...but, the boxes are made and printed in the USA, that's better than most saxes, right? :D

[JNAORPH62]

I apologize if I have caused any kind of confusion as to who I am. Looks like I am being mistaken for someone else.

My name is Jerry, I work for a company who is involved in distribution and marketing of this fine instrument. If you feel I am being arrogant in speaking my mind then you may contact me at the USA number which is 210-637-0414. I feel I have a right to speak my mind about a horn that I truly believe is an incredible horn regardless of who is the designer, and distributor.

Cheers!

[rgone]

I just tried their MODEL VI and the STEVE GOODSON MODEL acouple of days ago. I had the money with me and really thought i would buy the goodson horn. I was in for a big dissappointment. I couldn't get the horn to speak.Now, before you guys start saying that it was the player and not the horn,let me say that I tried a red burnished 850 model tenor, just to make sure it was the horn and not me. I made that sucker scream from low Bb to a B4. The salesman was so impressed that he offered the tenor for $799.00.I told him that the reason i was there was because i was interested in the goodson model . He told me that they had just returned from a trade show in New York and that everyone that tried it there, wouldn't want to put it down, they just wanted to keep playing it. If that was the case,then i guess i'm a beginner sax plyer....nottt!!!!! I believe that the horn went out of alignment while on transit or by the mishandling of the horn, which is what i told him.The thing is that if the horn went out of alignment from usage ,from one day to the next,makes me think that the horn is not dependable.I'm not used to playing a horn that goes out of regulation that easy,especially one at that price. I really wished that i could had been able to play-test the darn horn.If the guy had been a sax player,he would had known that the horn was not in playing condition before i got there. The salesman seemed pretty embarrssed about the situation. I hope they iron out all the imperefections before those model VIs and goodson models hit the market.

[morgan]

Which store was this?

[rgone]

TO MORGAN;

It was at the LA SAX warehouse.One of the reps. there gave me a call when the horns were available for testing.When I play-tested the Goodson model horns,I had a hard time adjusting to the 2nd register key,which is located to the left side of the left hand thumbrest.I kept pressing the 2nd octave key by accident.I have to admit , even though the horn wasn't playable in the middle and high octaves,due to the problems already discribed in my previous post,the altissimo was a whole different story.I was able to hit a D5 easily,with the altissimo key.The altissimo range seemed to just pop right out of the horn ,with no effort at all.

[Grumps]

So I went to the saxnation site and found, first, that I could no longer post there...
I don't think you're missing much; other than about half of his own posts denigrating this very site. And that's rather funny considering the Gimish adventure, and what apparently is his desire to remain on this board. I'd have left his forum after his post-Katrina tirade (from the previous forum) where he implored his readers to take a good look at the ones commiting the crimes, and remember. I lost a lot of respect for the folks that wished him well after that one.

[morgan]

It was at the LA SAX warehouse.One of the reps. there gave me a call when the horns were available for testing.

So if I am in .. is this Los Angeles or what city? .. and I call LA Sax and ask for .. Name Of Rep? .. then I can try these horns?

[Hurling Frootmig]

I just tried their MODEL VI and the STEVE GOODSON MODEL acouple of days ago. I had the money with me and really thought i would buy the goodson horn. I was in for a big dissappointment. I couldn't get the horn to speak.Now, before you guys start saying that it was the player and not the horn,let me say that I tried a red burnished 850 model tenor, just to make sure it was the horn and not me. I made that sucker scream from low Bb to a B4. The salesman was so impressed that he offered the tenor for $799.00.I told him that the reason i was there was because i was interested in the goodson model . He told me that they had just returned from a trade show in New York and that everyone that tried it there, wouldn't want to put it down, they just wanted to keep playing it. If that was the case,then i guess i'm a beginner sax plyer....nottt!!!!! I believe that the horn went out of alignment while on transit or by the mishandling of the horn, which is what i told him.The thing is that if the horn went out of alignment from usage ,from one day to the next,makes me think that the horn is not dependable.I'm not used to playing a horn that goes out of regulation that easy,especially one at that price. I really wished that i could had been able to play-test the darn horn.If the guy had been a sax player,he would had known that the horn was not in playing condition before i got there. The salesman seemed pretty embarrssed about the situation. I hope they iron out all the imperefections before those model VIs and goodson models hit the market.


Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the 850 the standard LA SAX tenor? $799 sounds like a fair price for one at wholesale.

[JNAORPH62]

This is Jerry Atencio with Orpheus Music. I'm the saxophone sales specialist here, and am happy to answer any questions about our products at any time.

We're more than a little concerned about your post here, because it could not possibly have happened as you described events. Here's why:

(1) We haven't shipped any Steve Goodson Model tenors to any dealers. Only alto models have been shipped. The only tenor examples are in Steve's possession. You could not possibly have played one.

(2) We haven't shipped any Saxgourmet tenors to your area. Where did you play one?

(3) We haven't participated in any trade shows in New York since January 2006, and the prototype Saxgourmet tenor used at that show is in Steve's possession. You could not possibly have played it. The production models that we now have were never shown at trade shows.

(4) I find it hard to believe that a dealer who just received horns in inventory would offer to sell you one at considerably below dealer cost. All horns that are in dealer inventory now are very recent arrivals, and it defies logic to think that a dealer would take a loss on an instrument that they have not had the opportunity to show to their customers.

I hate to have to point out that the story you relate to us here is impossible, but it is.

Again, let me know know of your questions. We would sincerely appreciate an explanation of your post, and more details if any are available.

[fballatore]

:sign5:

[Stacey]

I'm the saxophone sales specialist here, and am happy to answer any questions about our products at any time.

Again, let me know know of your questions.


My turn, my turn! I haven't gotten to play this game in a long time, and I want to give it a shot:

Jerry, in what country are these instruments manufactured?

I'll make it easy for you. You don't need to write a lengthy reply. It doesn't even need to be a full sentence. Just a name of a country - something similar to the following model answers:

"France"
"Taiwan"
"People's Republic of China"
"Germany"

Hey - that was fun! Thanks for letting me spin the wheel once again!

[Grumps]

This is Jerry Atencio with Orpheus Music. I'm the saxophone sales specialist here, and am happy to answer any questions about our products at any time.
Hi Jerry,
I'll take you up on that one...

On his web forum, the designer claims that these horns are designed in the U.S.A. with final adjustment being done here as well. Where are the horns manufactured and put together? Answering this simple question would go a long way in establishing credibility on this board. It does say where the horns are manufactured on the body of the instrument, does it not?

[Grumps]

Oh well, looks like Stacey beat me to it...

But there is one misconception that needs to be cleared up:

(1) We haven't shipped any Steve Goodson Model tenors to any dealers. Only alto models have been shipped. The only tenor examples are in Steve's possession. You could not possibly have played one.

(2) We haven't shipped any Saxgourmet tenors to your area. Where did you play one?

He didn't state that he played a Goodson tenor, but an LA Sax 850 model tenor (which was offered to him for the $799 figure). You assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that he was talking about tenor Goodson models when he made his comparison. Good to know the tenors aren't out on the market yet... at least before putting down a substantial deposit for one. Thanks for that.

So back to Stacey's question...

[JNAORPH62]

Hello Again!

Wow Guy's, Guy's Does it really matter where they are made?

I have very gutsy feeling that by reading some of these posts that even if I did tell you where they were made you still would not buy one or better yet probably smack it down to the ground faster.

Try one out and it will not matter where they are made trust me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And may the wheel keep on spinning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers!

[Grumps]

Wow Guy's, Guy's Does it really matter where they are made?
Obviously it must, at least to you and your ilk who refuse to disclose this material fact. So much for answering any questions. What we've come to expect though, with these offerings.

[Stacey]

I'm not in the market for any saxophone at all right now. I didn't think that was a prerequisite to discussing these saxophones or any others. I am actually quite happy with all of my instruments, which for the record were manufactured primarily in the following countries:

my soprano: France
my alto: France
my C-melody: United States of America
my tenor: Taiwan (yes, I recognize that its status as an independent country is not universally recognized)

See how I did that? I rattled off a list of my four saxophones, followed by the name of the country where each was made.

Why is that so hard?

[Morry]

Oh well, looks like Stacey beat me to it...

But there is one misconception that needs to be cleared up:



He didn't state that he played a Goodson tenor, but an LA Sax 850 model tenor (which was offered to him for the $799 figure). You assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that he was talking about tenor Goodson models when he made his comparison. Good to know the tenors aren't out on the market yet... at least before putting down a substantial deposit for one. Thanks for that.

So back to Stacey's question...

Actually, Grumps, I hate to come down side on SG in any argument, but the poster did say he play the Goodson model. He said it didn't speak very well, and then he played an 850 model which he sounded great on.

No dog in this fight. Just trying to keep the facts straight.

[Stacey]

He didn't specifically say the Goodson Model was a tenor.
He did say the 850 was a tenor.

Morry, I agree that he certainly IMPLIES that the Goodson model was a tenor.

Dog fight? Where?!? I love dogs, and hate the people who run dog fights.

[retread]

Could they be from Elbonia, where Dilbert's company does its outsourcing? That's one of the few places that would cause enough embarrassment to justify this level of secrecy.

[fballatore]

(1) We haven't shipped any Steve Goodson Model tenors to any dealers. Only alto models have been shipped. The only tenor examples are in Steve's possession. You could not possibly have played one.

(2) We haven't shipped any Saxgourmet tenors to your area. Where did you play one?

I hate to have to point out that the story you relate to us here is impossible, but it is.

Wow, what the heck happened to your post that was in the place of this one?? The one that prompted my :sign5: post?? Now I wish that I had quoted your post in mine. It started out something like this:

HI RGONE!!!

You should really get your facts straight if you're going to post on the web.

Then you proceeded to take rgone to task for twisting the facts on his visit (where, according to your "disappearing post"), you were right there with him while he was trying out the SG tenor. You even said in that post "we both know that the lower stack didn't play well", but then said that the upper stack and altissimo sounded great! Then you went on to tell rgone how great he knew the horn was, and you made several comments that indicated to me that you're either clairvoyant or a mindreader regarding how rgone really felt about the horn. Hence my :sign5:

Now you've changed that post and claim that not only is rgone lying, but you've never met, and his story is "impossible".

Several people have asked the simple question, "Where is the horn manufactured?", and yet you refuse to answer.

You haven't shipped any SG tenors to dealers, yet we should take you on your word that this is "an incredible horn". The definition of incredible is "So implausible as to elicit disbelief." I'd say that's fairly accurate here.

You've pretty much attacked everyone here, and have nothing to say except how great the horn is.

Wow. What sales training courses did you attend?

Geez, makes me want to sell my LA-650.

Oops, guess I just got myself banished from Saxnation.com.

Frank

[Mark5047]

It does appear someone is hiding something regarding the manufacture origin. If it were Japan, France or Germany, you BET it would be screamed from the mountaintops. Look at the Chicago Jazz - the fact that they are/were made in Germany is no secret at all. Try finding a piece of marketing fluff that doesn't tout that little tidbit.... I have zero problem with being made in Taiwan, Japan, Germany etc. Heck, every single horn I own is from Taiwan. Got no problem with that! My guess is then maybe there is a new place that is trying to break into the market and maybe this is a "you wash my hands I will wash your hands" deal.
Maybe they are made in Elbonia. Then if/when the general public gets an opportunity to play these instruments and IF they are as hot as the spin doctors say, then the next logical step is to say "and look, they come from Elbania" - next thing you know, there are little Elbanian sweatshops all over the place crankin out instruments......

[morgan]

1. They're not going to tell you where the horns are made.
2. They're not going to tell you why they're not going to tell you.

That pretty much sums up that topic. Speculate, complain, laugh - - it's going to come back to 1. and 2.

[morgan]

My questions for RGone were:

If I am in .. is this Los Angeles or what city? .. and I call LA Sax and ask for .. Name Of Rep? .. then I can try these horns?

I travel quite a bit and would like to know. I have played a Gourmet tenor but not the other alto/tenor flavors.

[Grumps]

Actually, Grumps, I hate to come down side on SG in any argument, but the poster did say he play the Goodson model. He said it didn't speak very well, and then he played an 850 model which he sounded great on.
My post was only to point out that the Goodson models he tried may indeed have been altos. Only the 850 was specifically stated to be a tenor.

But now with fballatore's post, you'd have to wonder what the heck was going on. Perhaps JNAORPH was thinking of another individual he knew that was unhappy with the horn when he made that (allegedly) altered post. Either way, I think someone who cares might want to call Orpheus Music and let them know that there is an individual using the screen name JNAORPH62 that is doing wonders for their customer relations. And hey, should he turn out to be legit... just have a good laugh. I mean... it's pretty funny. Should be a masterclass; How Not to Sell a Saxophone.

[Grumps]

2. They're not going to tell you why they're not going to tell you.
Not entirely accurate. The designer alleges that he has a confidentiality agreement (not sure with who) in which he cannot disclose his vendors. That is his rationale. He'd have done better of course to just have stuck with #2 above. No one has ever asked him, to my knowledge, who his vendors are. Just where the horns are made.

Comical.

[Morry]

How about this? I will emphatically state that THESE HORNS ARE MADE IN CHINA!!

If I'm wrong, someone connected with the company correct me and I'll publish a full retraction and apology. :-)

[gary]

I know this will incur wrath but, well...

What in the heck difference would it make if it was made in Tasmania?

The poor horse has been flogged, shot and thrown off a cliff. It would seem that bad blood is still festering over the former SG Sax fiasco to such an extent that the lines between passion and objectivity are getting blurred. Maybe it's time to take a little pause and regroup.

The point about the current SG Sax's country of origin has taken on a life of its own out of proportion to whatever significance it might have had in the beginning. It seems now to simply be a vehicle for yet another hard shot at SG and anyone having anything to do with a product that has his fingerprint on. The consequence is the berating of those who have expressed positive reactions to this new sax. I really think if we have some bona fide criticisms of the instrument we can do better than this.

Either these saxes play exceedingly well and justify the price or they don't. It's that simple. Obviously, some scepticism is justifiable, but it seems to me it would be more even-handed to reserve judgement until one of us has actually played one, since it's obvious that the opinion of any "outsider" with a positive experience is most unwelcome.

Scepticism is fine, but how about an even hand? Certainly a higher ground can be taken. :)

[tophatsax]

Well said, Gary. I've been trying to figure out a way to express that for quite a while. Thanks.

[Al Stevens]

The point about the current SG Sax's country of origin has taken on a life of its own out of proportion to whatever significance it might have had in the beginning.

It stopped being about where the sax is made a long time ago.

[ALVEGASAX]

I got a chance to play the new la sax sax gourmet and steve goodson models.This babies are something to look at.They look like jewelry.I tell you.....these babies rock. I played the alto vi....bam!!!!the sound blew me away. With this horn, I was able to hit a 5th octave D.The altissimo sounded in tune and clean.The tone is dark with power to boot but becomes edgy when pushed without getting too bright. The altissimo range on these babies is so effertless to play,the notes just pop out of the horn. It would be an injustice if you dudes disregard or downgrade these horns simply because they were made in china or whereever they were made at. In my oppinion, I couldn't care less if they were made in the north pole,.....as long as they played great and had a great tone.

rgone, if you are who I think you are,...your time's up dude....I want that tenor back.I'll be in your nick of the woods next month.I soppose that challenge is still on.You never showed up that last time.I'll have someone get in touch with you when I get there,maybe we can get that grudge match over with,once and forall.I'll be at the Valdemar's Karate studio on the 12th.

[CircaRevival]

rgone, if you are who I think you are,...your time's up dude....I want that tenor back.I'll be in your nick of the woods next month.I soppose that challenge is still on.You never showed up that last time.I'll have someone get in touch with you when I get there,maybe we can get that grudge match over with,once and forall.I'll be at the Valdemar's Karate studio on the 12th.

Woah guys...this is an internet forum. No need to fight in real life- no matter what degree of black belt you are. This should tell you how good and rare the horns are, people are fighting over them!

;)

[Bernards20040]

i Just went to the web site and had a lok at the goodson models and the saxgourmet ones and with all the hype one name sprung to mind.

[HOLTON

[Grumps]

I know this will incur wrath but, well...
Not wrath, just wonder... as in, I wonder where you've been the last three or four years.

When a product is marketed in an unethical and deceitful manner, I'll be sure to point that out. If that's a dead horse to you, or somehow uneven handed, well, I can take your admonishment. You ought to know better at least, but it's the others who might be fooled by a flashy website or incredible boasts of stature. They're the ones that need to know. Not everyone is so handy with the search feature as you are Gary. You can't expect everyone to know what's been posted last week, let alone several years ago. A lot of good people work to defend their own on this site. Don't undermine their efforts.

[mvspur]

GARY.......It's about time someone grounded this discussion! I could not have said it better myself! BTW....what does it take to shed "Outsider" status? I have a life and most of my free time is spent with a horn in my hands and not at the keyboard. I played the horns myself and I gave you my honest opinion. Do I have to have 2000+ posts to have credibility?!?!?!?!?

I even went so far as to apologize for a misunderstanding and this is what became of it?!?!?!?

To the rest.....

You guys are crazy! This is one of the best forums on the web for more reasons than I can count and there is so much angst among you. I don't get it. While I'm at it, I DO NOT WORK FOR THESE PEOPLE!!!! I DO NOT GET ROYALTY CHECKS FROM STEVE GOODSON BECAUSE I "PIMP" HIS LATEST CREATION!!!!

Instead of spending so much time spitting venom at people, why don't you strap up and go to the woodshed. Last I checked, no one is too good to be above practice. I don't want to get into a pissing contest about how many of you actually play the horn to some degree of skill because that would be a waste of time. Does every grammy-winning jazz artist have to dump their axe and start playing this one for you to calm down?

Play the horns.......THEN TALK.

What is it going to take with you people? I have had exchanges with some of you in the past and they have been nothing short of exemplary. Why does this change now?!?!?!? I could give a rat's butt about who designed these horns or where they are made, or whatever. Play the horn BEFORE YOU SAY ANYTHING NEGATIVE.

You (I, We) will never know where they are made and you (I, We) will never know why you (I, We) will never know where they are made. This holds true until someone who really knows decides that it can be revealed. If there really is a confidentiality agreement and legal boundaries that can't be crossed, why can't you respect that? I can. I played the horns and I don't care if they are made in East L. A. It's very obvious that whoever is manufacturing and testing them knows what they are doing.

And furthermore.....If someone came here and posted that they were told where the horns were made and revealed it, how are you going to prove that what they say is correct? When I had the horns in my hands, nowhere on them was it stamped where they are made.

I know it doesn't matter to you people anymore, but I can't wait to get mine.

Go ahead.....rip this post to shreds.

Geez........

I just shake my head. I guess I'll go back to talking about all of the other aspects of playing the best musical instrument in the world with folks in the other threads. At least they don't want to jump through my PC and cut my head off at first chance.

Respectfully,

Minion

[whaler]

The hair sells it, just ask Kenny G and well, before, Michael Bolton.

[rgone]

mvspur,
Are you sure your last name isn't Atencio by any chance?Your way of wording sounds very familiar.

[mvspur]

Nice try.....I don't hide behind anything, people. I'm not Jerry, but I know the man very well. My username, MVSPUR is actually portions of my real name. M-first letter of my first name. V-first letter of my middle name. SPUR-first four letters of my last name. My name is Mike Spurlock. I live in San Antonio, Texas. I'd even give you my address and phone number if I thought the exchange would be positive. If you want to discuss anything with me, feel free to send contact information to me privately and I'll call you. I don't pay for long distance so that doesn't matter. In fact, I welcome it. I've been acquainted with the saxophone for over 20 years. I know enough about the horn to be able to tell the difference between a good one and a not-so-good one.

This is so pathetic. I think it bothers some of you that someone actually has a positive thing to say about something SG related. I've played them. So I can talk all I want to. That's alot more than most of you can say.

For the life of me, I can't understand why you guys are so nasty. Ask very pointed questions to the people responsible for the instrument. Accept the answers to those questions in whatever form they come. And get on with life. The horns will speak for themselves. Plain and simple.

You put so much emphasis on where a horn is made. Why? I've played Mark VIs that are just good enough to hang a lamp shade on, or plant tulips in the bell. Does that mean that I should come to SOTW and tell everyone that Mark VIs are trash?

So, rgone.....what is your real name?

Next question......

Mike

[Grumps]

You put so much emphasis on where a horn is made. Why?
No, the emphasis isn't where the horn is made, but the reluctance of the designers/marketers/minions to disclose same. Why is it important? Well, so far, we've only heard from one insider that the horns were made in the PRC. Do you know of any pro model horns coming from there? I know there are plenty of disposable, cheap horns coming from there, but that's about it. Oh, they're getting better you say... Why would they? That's where the money is made. Disposable horns. So you have to keep buying them. Now more top of the line horns are going to be made there? Why? Is it the epitome of saxophone artistry and detail? No. It's cheaper to make them there. That's the only reason. Now there's a new horn out, an insider claims it's from the PRC, and guess what? It ain't inexpensive. What gives here? The designer has gone to great lengths to actually cover up where the horn is from, both here and on other forums. That is a legitimate customer concern, and there is no need to play the sax to realize this. It is a serious red flag, and given the designer's history with the Unison horn, caution would be prudent.

Another thing I don't have to play the sax to comment about, is the shill marketing being done on this very site. The designer pretty much exposed himself as Gimish, who has plugged the horn here. Using an anonymous moniker to plug your own goods is both unethical and deceitful, and I will comment upon it accordingly. But hey, look what happens when somebody who has actually tried the horn makes critical remarks. First he's degraded; and most unfairly so. Then he's asked to meet a minion in a karate studio. That's par for the course. That's how they operate. Go to the thread here where folks post who they'd want to meet in the sax world. Gimish wants to meet me. Why do you think that is? Look at Randall's experience. He's been booted from the designer's forum, and he was actually trying to defend the horn. But one astute observation that sent the designer into a tizzy was all it took for Paradise Lost.

Try the horn, try the horn... You know, if it ever becomes available, I just might. But until then, I'm not going to remain silent while this site is used in an unethical and deceitful manner. What I'm afraid of is that people aren't going to be able to try the horn, other than at trade shows, and they'll have to order them sight unseen, like the Unison experience. We all know how that went. And if you've forgotten? Well, go to alt.music.saxophone and search under the designer's name (yeah you too Gary... go search why don't you). Not only will you find documented experiences by folks using their full names in regard to business dealings with the designer (none of which to my knowledge ever led to a viable defamation claim), but you will also find the designer himself spitting venom at respected folks from this very site, and often in a most profane manner. If you can do that and still respect this character, and defend his marketing on this site, then in my opinion, you will only be acting to further his most disruptive influence on the saxophone community.

[Morry]

Yeah, what he said.

[rgone]

YEA I HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION
MVSPUR,DID YOU TAKE YOUR HIGH BLOOD PRESSURE MEDS. THIS MORNING???
A simple "NO" answer would had been sufficient,on the name question.
You seem like you're about to have a massive heart attack,brotha man.As for your comment about MK VIs..,,,ouucchh(yea right).THEY/THEM/US/WE/I don't give a rat's a** about your comment about MK VIs,you probably never played a MK VI in your live anyway. You need to settle down brotha, take a deep breath, take your meds. more regularly.There's no reason for you to blow a gasket,just because they/them/us/we don't share your own views.People are always going to have their own objective opinion.You seem to be already in combat mode, itching for a fight.Over a forum discussion as to where a certain sax was manufactured???WOW, I meant that question I threw at you as a joke,I didn't think you'd get all bent out of shape and blow a gasket.By the way, I really care less what your name is,and may I say that never had any bad comments or opinions about the LA saxes.
:walk: THIS IS WHERE I GET OFF THE BUS

[Al Stevens]

My name is Mike Spurlock. I live in San Antonio, Texas.
But where were you made? :)

[rgone]

ALVEGASAX;
Yes ,it's me brotha man.Sorry, I couldn't make it to the party class reunion.I didn't even know that Master Valdemar was back in town. I thought that he was still in south America.I'll drop by his dojo and pay my respects.Thanks for the loaner,couldn't had made that unexpected gig without it.I'll have that tenor here when you drop by and pick it up.




By the way, this thread has really turned nasty, hasn't it?

[Al Stevens]

My bad! I had this thread confused with another. Please disregard this stupid message.

In case nobody noticed, this thread was significantly edited a short time ago, eliminating a number of contentious postings and other postings that made no sense out of context of the deleted contentious postings. Apparently the MFWIC (moderating fellow who's in charge) or one of his associates didn't like how things were going.

I don't like when that happens, because I find these spirited exchanges far more entertaining than the usual pablum about what mouthpiece sounds good on a slide kazoo and who plays Rocky Top better than who else. But I saw it coming.

I see it coming again. :|

[Stacey]

To some people, it really does make a difference where a product is made.

There are people who avoid goods made in Cuba if possible, because they don't like Castro.

There are people who avoid goods made in the PRC, because they don't like the regime there and its record of human rights abuses. Other people try to boycott PRC-produced goods as a way of protesting the rampant violations of intellectual property rights that most of the rest of the world obeys.

There are people who boycott goods made in the USA, because they disagree with the current Administration's policies or with any number of US actions from the past.

There are people who try to avoid good made in certain South American or Asian regions because of the fear that the goods were made by children and/or virtual slaves.

There are people who avoid goods made in Mexico, because they are convinced that "those people are stealing our jobs".


There are any number of perfectly valid reasons why a person can say that a product's country of origin is important. None of those reason must necessarily have anything to do with how well a product performs, or how well it is made.

[morgan]

Rgone, what city did you try the horns in and who is the contact there?

Thanks

[Pete Thomas]

There are people who boycott goods made in the USA, because they disagree with the current Administration's policies or with any number of US actions from the past.


I was going to do that, but couldn't find anything made there!

;)

[Dog Pants]

I was going to do that, but couldn't find anything made there!

;)

Ouch!!! Wish I'd said that. :D :D :D

I think that one's worth learning in all keys.

Thanks Pete.

[Harri Rautiainen]

I was going to do that, but couldn't find anything made there!
;)US made items to be boycotted (http://www.cafepress.com/saxontheweb), if you are so inclined ;)

[retread]

I was going to do that, but couldn't find anything made there!

;)
And what is the origin of the term "boycott", my English friends?

[gary]

Chapman: Trouble at LA Sax.
Valdemort: Oh no - what kind of trouble?
Chapman: S'ody want know wha or horn maiked.
Valdemort: Pardon?
Chapman: S'ody want know wha or horn maiked.
Valdemort: I don't understand what you're saying. Well what on earth does that mean?
Chapman: *I* don't know - Mr Wentworth just told me to come in here and say that there was trouble at LA Sax, that's all. I didn't expect a kind of -
Spanish Inquisition.

[JARRING CHORD]

Ximinez: NOBODY expects the...Spanish Inquisition!

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b388/DrJazz_/Spanish_Inquisition.png

[The cardinals enter]

Biggles: Er.... Nobody...um....
Ximinez: Expects...
Biggles: Expects... Nobody expects the...um...the Spanish...um...
Ximinez: Inquisition.
Biggles: I know, I know! Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. In fact, those who do expect -
Ximinez: Our chief weapons are...
Biggles: Our chief weapons are...um...er...
Ximinez: Surprise...
Biggles: Surprise and --
Ximinez: Okay, stop. Stop. Stop there - stop there. Stop. Phew! Ah! ... our chief weapons are surprise...blah blah blah.

Cardinal, read the charges.

Fang: You are hereby charged that you did on diverse dates commit heresy against the Holy Church. 'My old man said follow the--'
Biggles: That's enough.

[To Valdemort] Now, how do you plead?
Valdemort: We're innocent.
Ximinez: Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

[DIABOLICAL LAUGHTER]

Biggles: We'll soon change your mind about that!

:D

[Stacey]

I was going to do that, but couldn't find anything made there!

;)

:D

Too good.

[Grumps]

Oh geeze... now we've got Gary playing the victim for them, though I'd have preferred a cogent argument in response. Those posts aren't being deleted. All mine are here.

[retread]

Not offered in defense of Steve Goodson, but as a perspective on nation of origin:

I can remember when Japanese imports were considered cheap imitations, most of dubious quality. When Japanese cars were first imported I knew several first generation Toyota dealers. One had a lawn tractor store. The others were used car dealers who couldn't afford a "real" automotive franchise. Guess who's making money now.

Most SOTW members will remember the early Hyundais. They were cheap, but not known for reliability or durability. The early dealers usually sold other lines, and steered their good customers away from Hyundai. The new Hyundais are praised for quality by the automotive press.

Of course, the Yugo was so bad the source country dissolved from embarrassment.

For most saxophonists the first Japanese saxes were junk. Then the Taiwanese saxes. Now the Chinese. With manufacturing resources and dedication to quality I suspect good saxes can be made almost anywhere.

[hornimus]

Interesting or not, no saxes are made in the US any longer (presumably due not to a lack of dedication to quality, but to shareholders' bottom lines), and given a choice between a Taiwanese make or most any of the models made in the US over the past couple of decades, I think I'd be unpatriotic. They've got the technology and craftsmanship to make anything you might want in a sax these days, and chances are those are assets that can be reproduced fairly readily (with a little time) on the mainland.

I don't get the impression that this thread was focused on where the SG horns are made, or any insistence that the horns have to be crap if they come from PRC, but on why the marketers wish to keep that a secret? Perhaps it boils down to some embarrassment over the hefty margins to be made? Naaaaah.... so what else is new?

I thank Morgan for providing his straightforward review of the horn. As for me, if they ever come to market, I suppose one will run across my hands someday. Until then....

[Grumps]

Now the Chinese. With manufacturing resources and dedication to quality I suspect good saxes can be made almost anywhere.
Dedication to quality? It has nothing to do with quality, but with price. And why? Well, look at China's form of government and the state of their workers. Can you still compare that with the Japanese? Well, even if you believe that decent horns can be made in China, don't you also believe it would be unethical to cover up same and price your horns on par with those made by more reliable nation states?

[retread]

if you believe that decent horns can be made in China, don't you also believe it would be unethical to cover up same and price your horns on par with those made by more reliable nation states?
Short answer: no.
Longer answer: there is nothing unethical about a vendor selling a product for what a buyer is willing to pay. And I really doubt the country of origin will be secret for long. The street price (assuming enough are produced) will probably be a fraction of the "list price."
Speculative answer: we have ample proof SG is an accomplished promoter. The country of origin question has generated a plethora of discussion about his new saxes. Could this be deliberate? The old saw is "love you or hate you, as long as they talk about you." SG may be the P. T. Barnum of the sax world, with all that implies.
Reliable nation states: do you buy gasoline?

[mvspur]

Sincere thanks for your time and explanation, Grumps. You have my admiration in the sense that you want to be the voice of reason and stick up for others. That's a good thing. I don't need a laundry list of who feels that they were wronged to understand your position. All I know of Steve is the 3 hours I spent with him that Saturday at the TBA convention when I got to got play the horns. I guess what I'm trying to say is that until something happens to me that changes my perception of the man, I will defend my position as well. Remember, there's two sides to every story.

I know a thing or two about marketing. I have a couple of pieces of paper that cost me alot of money and time that say that I do. Having said that, I am not "marketing" anything here. I'm not aligned with Jerry, or Steve, or Orpheus music to plot and scheme my way to enticing people to buy the horn by hiding behind a username and pour out honey to any sucker who will give me the time of day. Furthermore, I have willingly disclosed everything I know and who I really am. I've even apologized for not being more clear on things when I should have when all of this started. That's worth something.

I know Jerry very well. As I stated, I bought all of my horns from him. Through our interactions we became friends. It is because of this that I was afforded the opportunity to play these horns. I promised you guys a long time ago that I would come here and tell you what I thought about them. I have done that. At no time was I promised anything of value for being overly enthusiastic or anything of that nature when it came to publicly saying anything about these horns.

I have been criticized for not finding negative aspects to go along with positive ones. Fair enough. Although I have to say I did not have a negative experience. I fell in love with the 'gourmet alto just minutes after becoming aquainted with it. I chuckle because everything I heard up to that point in terms of hype was centered around the tenor. My experience with the tenor was very positive, but the alto stole my heart.

So I ask you.....is it through my choice of words here that I am being condemned for deceitful marketing? Once more....I need to stress to you that I am just an "average joe" that got a chance to play the horns and nothing more. I feel like I am being grouped with the historical angst that you guys have and that's not fair to me.

BTW.....with all of this "you're hiding" accusation, I just figured I'd put that part to rest. That's something I do have control over.

rgone.....I've played and/or owned many Selmer horns dating as far back as the old cigar-cutter. The best Selmer horn I ever owned was not a VI. It was an SBA, the VI predecessor. "Brotha"......I'm not asking for a fight. I just want this whole thing to calm down. This thread is such a waste of energy for us all. If you underdstood my point, you would know that I was not cutting down the horn, but rather making a point that within every line of saxophones, there are bad apples. The Mark VI is/was known for that. The good ones are REALLY good, and the bad ones are equally as bad.

I think the real problem here (as I understand it, anyway) is that folks have issue with Steve for whatever reason and it is because of that and that alone that any comment about anything that he is directly involved with will be met with angst. If the comment is negative, then I become part of "the group" and we all pile on him together. If my comments are positive, I'm the one that gets piled on because I don't share the same sentiment that some of you "insiders" do. Sounds pretty simple to me.

None-the-less......I wish all of you well. If we can't turn this around to something a little more positive, I'm going to have to respectfully bow out. I don't think Harri intended this forum to be a place to fight. There's too many good things going on here to get hung up on this.

Have a great day, all.

Mike

[JNAORPH62]

Hello Again!

I would like to say: Mike thanks for all the hard work you did and sorry for all the beating you have taken for simply voicing your opinion regarding a saxophone that you truly belive in. and I as well!

To ALVEGASAX: Thanks brother for posting your comments. The true person who was in our shop has spoken.

To Rgone: At this point I do not know who you are and to my knowledge have never met you as well. I know for a fact that you have never been at our facility in San Antonio TX. So please brother don't post anything unless you have really lived it..........

To all who truly believe in what were are doing regardless of what has happened in the past with the designer My Kudos to you!!!!!!!!!!

But really folks These are really good horns. I am sorry that we cannot reveal as to where they are made. (Sorry Sir China is not the origin!) But please give one a try and then speak your peace whether it be good or bad, But please be sincere. Best regards to all lets stop the dog fight!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers!

[JMac]

...I am sorry that we cannot reveal as to where they are made. ...But please give one a try and then speak your peace whether it be good or bad, But please be sincere. ...Ok, won't say where they're made, no biggie, or surprise.

Would you tell me where can I try one in the Baltimore-DC region? Production versions of the 'Saxgourmet' and Steve Goodsen models in alto and tenor, please, on the shelf and with a price tag -not a hand adjusted prototype. Thank you.

[Pete]

Bun fight on aisle 12!!!!1111oneoneeleven

I, for one, have always said that I hope beyond hope that the new Goodson horns are the best thing since sliced Kenny G. Are they? Dunno. I haven't played them.

PLAYING PERSPECTIVE:
* I'd strongly recommend playing a Goodson model next to whatever is the other top-model LA Sax horn before you buy Goodson's horn. Why? I'd like to see if there's a serious enough difference to justify the price. I am relatively unsure if there is a significant bore change between the top models.

* NEVER, regardless of make/model, play a horn that the dealer gives you, hand it back and say, "I'll take one of those, sight unseen" -- especially if it's the floor model at a woodwind show. You KNOW the sample model has been set up as good as is humanly possible.

* I DON'T particularly care where my next horn is from, just as long as it's the highest quality I can get for what I'm paying for it. I DO have a problem when a dealer just "won't" reveal where his horn is made. If the dealer is "embarrassed" over who the manufacturer is or in which country the horn's manufactured, maybe he shouldn't have those horns made there.

Or maybe, just maybe, that same manufacturer makes another make/model under a different name that's identical and thousands of $cheaper.

UNISON PERSPECTIVE:
* I've been around long enough to remember Goodson's Unison fiasco, culminating in his rapid departure from this Forum.
* I also remember that Goodson's paid endorsers were posting here, almost daily, saying how wonderful those horns were.
* I also remember seeing posts from people that said they didn't get Goodson horns after paying deposits or having to wait for MONTHS before getting horns -- and/or leaving horns for deposit and then not being able to retrieve their "deposit" horns.
* I also remember Goodson lifting quotes from this forum to repost on Unison's website as advertisements, without Harri's permission.
* I also remember multiple negative comments regarding Steve Goodson Woodwinds, LLC on the Louisiana Better Business Bureau website.

BOTTOM LINE:
* Play-test the horn. Play test the other pro model LA Sax -- and, for that matter, other pro horns, too. If you think it's worth it, buy the exact horn you play-test. Don't put a deposit. Don't have the dealer give you a random different horn.

Again, I really, really hope that these Goodson horns are the best thing since sliced Kenny G.

======================

DISCLAIMERS:
* I'm not a paid endorser of any product -- but hope to be. Send me money and horns. I'll advertise for you!!!!11111oneoneoneeleven

* If asked, I generally recommend beginning students buy Yamaha. I've been trying for MONTHS to get a Kessler Custom to review for studentia, but have yet to get one, so I cannot recommend these, either. For pros -- and people that think they are -- get whatever you think is best.

* I also have not played any of the LA Sax, Unison or any Goodson model instruments, nor do I intend to.

* I know Steve reads all my posts, personally, and I expect that he'll either post a missive on his website or send me an e-mail. Sorry, Steve. Not interested.

* Random phrases guaranteed to make some posters go *snort*: garden hose attachments. Cryogenic treatments. Bed wetting.

[Pete]

Oh. According to http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=319363&postcount=24, these horns are made in the PRC.

[thehighend]

Well, so much for that mystery.

[Randall]

Have I got an eye for fonts, or what?:D

But as I related in my first post, the country of origin doesn't always mean a lot in terms of quality. Countries DO go thru a process of growth and maturity in manufacturing.

I would try any horn to see what it is like, no matter the origin.

I want to tell you that two of the biggest and most pleasant surprises in my life were a Taiwanese 98 model Cannonball alto (an era of CB not known for its quality control), a Jupiter alto, and a later version of the Conn 21M alto.

All horns roundly panned and poo-poo'd.

I'd put any of those 3 up against anything in the world ('cept maybe an Inderbinen, and even then my CB would hold its own, admirably).

[Stacey]

Oh. According to http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=319363&postcount=24, these horns are made in the PRC.

But saxpics, that can't be true, because that would make JNAORPH62 a simple liar. Couldn't be possible.

[Bill Mecca]

*snort* garden hose... ROFLMAO!!!

[saxmanglen]

I can always rely on reading some good fiction when there's an SG horn review. God, I love these reviews! Thanks!

[Dog Pants]

*snort* garden hose... ROFLMAO!!!

Bill,
Where have you been? Don't tell me you've been working, or worse still practicing?
Lawd almighty, Bill, have you actually been gigging? :)

Anyways, back to the argument at hand, didn't the Big Man play a unison tenor on the Seeger Sessions Tour? :) :D

[Grumps]

So I ask you.....is it through my choice of words here that I am being condemned for deceitful marketing?
Deceitful marketing would be a marketer coming here and using an anonymous screen name to plug their wares. The evidence is there. Been posted before. You be the judge... or not. At least you know why some are suspicious.

Peace

[Harri Rautiainen]

Oh. According to http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=319363&postcount=24, these horns are made in the PRC.Here is the posting I was quoting:

http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=225152#post225152

[JMac]

Hey, I'm willing to follow this guys advice to try one as objectively as possible - I just wanna know where I can?...Try one out and it will not matter where they are made trust me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I must admit, my first reaction to anyone who tells me to trust them, is NOT to trust them. The overuse of exclamation points further enhances that reaction. Finally, a marketing whiz telling me that this truly great horn may be the next Mark VI [er, in being over rated and over-hyped?] begs the question - do you even play the sax?

According to Mr. Goodsen's latest site, they are only shipping to places that have taken advance orders, not including WWBW. So, I checked Orpheus' website. More lessons in how not to market a saxophone. All the links to Goodsen's sites are to the old ones. To me, the real kicker is the inclusion of this extremely amatuer rip-off of an old ad -

"Son, someday you will make a girl very happy for a short period of time. Then she will leave you and be with men who are ten times better than you could ever hope to be. These men are all musicians, and they all play nothing else but STEVE GOODSON MODEL saxophones from the L. A. Sax Company."

So, if I play an L.A. Sax series II, I am only 1/10th of a 'man'?

And why do he-men need 3 ring strap hooks on a 'NINO :shock: ?????

BTW - add the 'nino to the list of production horns on the shelf I'd like to try.

As far as who is being honest where the sax is made - I assume as with most saxes these days, the parts are coming from all over the place to be assembled in another place, shipped to yet another place for final 'adjustment'. One would need to ask JNAORPH62 a more specific question than 'where is it made' - more like 'what is the country of final assembly'?

Just be certain that reports from the assemblers at the Malabar front are that, despite the double-plus-ungood marketing, the horns are indeed double plus good ;) !

[Grumps]

One would need to ask JNAORPH62 a more specific question than 'where is it made' - more like 'what is the country of final assembly'?
Oh, I did ask him where they were manufactured and put together (the designer has stated that they were designed in the US with the final adjustments taking place here as well). His initial response was that basically, we were bad boys and he wouldn't tell us. Later he said he can't tell us. Are they doing this to generate buzz and hype? Perhaps, but if it turns out that the horns are really from China and that advance, non-refundable orders are being taken without disclosing this fact, then it would just be another money grab.

So how about it Jerry? Let's move on. What's the return policy on these horns? Are advance orders being taken, and if so, must you make a deposit? If you make such a deposit, how much do you have to put down. Would the deposit be refundable?

[Pete Thomas]

Steve Goodson has already made it clear on A.M.S. that the country of origin is clearly labelled on the instrument and you can see the label if you go and buy one. ie it's only a secret if you don't buy one. It was also confirmed by Tim Price, whose opinion I highly respect and trust, that these instruments are definitely not made in China. I apologise to either of these gentlemen if I'm misrepresenting their words, but the relevant posts should be easily found.

[Grumps]

...the country of origin is clearly labelled on the instrument and you can see the label if you go and buy one. ie it's only a secret if you don't buy one.
Remember the source. Shortly after this posting the designer began inquiring of other horns that had the country of manufacture on the body of the horn. Why do you think that was? Still, keeping things secret until you buy one may not cut it for folks that have to special order them. That's why I've asked Jerry about the return/deposit policies in place. I do hope he responds to document same.

Anyhow, if it's true that the country of origin is marked on the horn, and rgone was testing the alto models, he should know. Well rgone? Was any country of origin listed on the horn?

[Al Stevens]

I think a marketing genius must be out there somewhere laughing his nether regions off.

A new product gets this kind of attention and discussion in a forum attended only by the product's targeted market? You can't buy that kind of well-focused coverage.

Given all this, who among us will not test play a saxgourmet horn at the very first opportunity? Just out of curiousity. Maybe hoping it's a dud and our suspicions are confirmed.

But then, if it does indeed turn out to be a VI killer, who among us won't consider buying one irrespective of the invective and vitriol about its designer and reports of his past business failures?

Whoever set this up ought to get a big fat bonus.

[Grumps]

Also, Tim played one at a show, didn't he? So others that tried them at shows should have seen the same markings for the country of origin. So Morgan and mvspur, was the country of origin labeled on the horns you tried? I'm not asking where they're made, mind you (this time), just if it's listed on the horn as was previously claimed. Anyone else see one of these horns at a show and care to verify the country of origin being seen on the horn?

[mvspur]

Grumps, thanks for asking. I have a question and for once, it is not dripping with sarcasm: Is my review of this horn as good as the next square on the toilet paper roll? I was beginning to wonder if I dreamt all of this. I'm not a grammy winning professional saxophonist, but my skill level is respectable enough to be objective about the subject at hand.

To answer: I do not recall that information being anywhere on the horns that I played. Furthermore (and you bring up a good point here): If this information was indeed stamped on the horn, all it would take is for one of you guys to get your hands on one, see it clearly marked there, then come post that information here.

Seems too easy to me. Pete, can you point me to the link where Steve stated this? I'd like to see it. This seems sort of contradictory to what we already know regarding disclosure of said information.

Pete, like you, I don't want to bring Tim Price into this mess, but I have to tell you. I agree with you regarding the level of respect for Tim. His ability speaks for itself. And his willingness to share his teaching and music the way that he does speaks volumes. I know that he did play the horn, but like you, I will not speak for him as that's just not a good thing to do.

It's nice to have exchanges at this level and I'll continue to participate as long as the personal attacks are absent.

Thanks again.

Mike

[Grumps]

...can you point me to the link where Steve stated this? I'd like to see it. This seems sort of contradictory to what we already know regarding disclosure of said information.

You'll see it in here: country of origin stamp (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.music.saxophone/browse_frm/thread/baa0246a0d12b320/5323218d942b2bfb?lnk=gst&q=goodson+country+price&rnum=6#5323218d942b2bfb)
He may have said it elsewhere as well, but it's also here around the 90th post (if you view it as a tree). Looking back over Tim's comments, it appears he based his opinion more on feel than a label.

[Bikedog]

there are two Steve Goodson altos on eBay right now...for $1800. Far cry from the ammount of money posted here as the price. Perhaps these horns are not the same ones being discussed.

[Swingin' Cat]

Who is this Goodson person, anyway?

[morgan]

rGone, what city did you try the horns in and who is the contact?

[Grumps]

there are two Steve Goodson altos on eBay right now...for $1800. Far cry from the ammount of money posted here as the price. Perhaps these horns are not the same ones being discussed.
They've been up for bid for a couple of weeks now, with no takers as far as I've seen. Not surprised as they're claimed to be new horns, sold by a dealer, but no listed return policy; only a one year warranty. In the past, those warranties offered by the designer used to only be good if you sent the horn back to the designer; not something everyone would do given old history. Perhaps you can inquire as to where the horns are made, as the designer did say a buyer would find out anyhow. You could also ask for details concerning the warranty. As for price, I believe the Model VI's he's offering will be priced much higher. Like Selmer pricing.

p.s. Morgan, was the country of origin stated anywhere on the horn you tried?

[morgan]

Grumps, I didn't look for a country of origin label when trying out the tenor.

[morgan]

there are two Steve Goodson altos on eBay right now...for $1800. Far cry from the ammount of money posted here as the price. Perhaps these horns are not the same ones being discussed.

The Saxgourmet model is the higher priced one. Those on ebay are not the Saxgourmet.

[Pete]

*snort* garden hose... ROFLMAO!!!
I aim to please. One of these days I will make a mug out of that cartoon, too :D.

If anyone need an explanation of this inside joke, feel free to PM me. If the PM numbers get too large, Ill post a "sanitized" version, here.
Oh. According to http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=319363&postcount=24, these horns are made in the PRC.But saxpics, that can't be true, because that would make JNAORPH62 a simple liar. Couldn't be possible.
Dunno about that, Stacey (we must do "pizza night" again, at some point, btb). That post was from http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=26310, according to Harri, and Mr. Fenno may, of course, be mistaken or referring to just one model of "Goodsen"-labeled instrument: we had gotten onto the topic about how the Keilwerth SX90 is (mainly) made by Keilwerth, but the Keilwerth EX90 is made by Amati and the Keilwerth ST90 is made in ROC (Taiwan).

[JNAORPH62]

Greetings Gentlemen!

Sorry I have not had a chance to respond to your questions at hand. I also apologize if my exclamations have annoyed you'all. It has been a tough Dog fight.

To Grumps and JMAC, Thank you for your questions Gentleman, Yes! if you are interested in trying one out we are taking orders. But,are not requiring deposits just credit card info and payment in full at time of shipping. Will allow a trial period but if not satisfied we will refund your money less all shipping and credit card costs imposed. Also, That is if there is not dealer in your area carrying these instruments. Otherwise I ask that you support you local dealer.

Also, It is correct the Steve Goodson Model is a totally different saxophone than the Saxophone we are all discussing about. This discussion is on the Model VI Saxgourmet Saxophone. And it is available in one finish Only!

I will try and stay on top of this Gentlemen, Be patient if I do not respond quickly. Been busy at Orpheus!

Cheers Everyone!

[Stacey]

Dunno about that, Stacey (we must do "pizza night" again, at some point, btb). That post was from http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=26310, according to Harri, and Mr. Fenno may, of course, be mistaken or referring to just one model of "Goodsen"-labeled instrument...

I just meant IF that were true, what the implications would be. Just a simple case of either "x" or "NOT(x)" being true, but not both true. Note that I am NOT calling ANYONE a liar - I have no clue who is right, or who is mistaken, or who is lying.

Pizza... I still need to re-lose 8 pounds, and then perhaps lose 10 more beyond those. And of course my non-income still prohibits most restaurant outings... but except for those considerations, pizza sounds lovely. We should invite toothmechanic again.

This is all so hilarious... now that Steve Sklar has tweaked my Cannonball into adjustment and removed almost all of the "play" from the mechanism, that Taiwan-made horn of mine holds its own in playtests against the best new horns Selmer has to offer. I am PROUD to have found a horn that plays so well for so much less money than I could have spent elsewhere. Ashamed to tell people where it was made? Heavens, NO - I'm very pleased to help others save money the way I did. I really can't imagine why someone wouldn't want to tell where a good new horn were made. Help bring those overpriced Selmer people to their knees. Well, that's not exactly true. I can think of one reason...

Hypothetically, if I designed and built a horn that felt and sounded as good as the horns that companies like Selmer and Keilwerth sell for upwards of $4000, I would want to sell my horn for that much as well. If my horn were made someplace with very low labor costs, such that I was able to get it for mere hundreds of dollars, I would still like to sell it for $4k-$5k (after all, if my horn were as good as a Selmer, it should merit a similar price, in my mind). There's nothing crooked or particularly unsavory about me wanting to make a lot of money from my product - it's why people make products. Raising profits by finding cheaper production avenues - that's how business works. But if the world knew the origins of my horn, they wouldn't want to pay what I perceive as the market value of my horn - they would want to pay "$1 above invoice", or in my case "mere hundreds plus $1". So I don't think I'm going to tell anyone where my product is made. Sure, the markup is huge, but I spent a lot of time and energy designing my product, and lining up connections to get it made, and I'm a freakin' VISIONARY, for heaven's sake!

But that's just what *I* might do, if *I* invented an awesome product and found a way to produce it in an inexpensive manner. I'm sure that's a complete topical diversion, and not at all applicable to what may or may not be happening here.

Alrighty, then, back to my real life.

[Pete]

I'm actually no longer allowed to eat pizza -- I need to update my "Where's saxpics?" thread -- but I could spring for wings or we can do Souper! Salad!

Anyhow, regarding pricing, the only thing I'm selling (soon) is my 2007 calendar. I'm going to price it so the folks that contributed pics can get SOME income, but I want to price it low enough so lotsa folks buy 'em -- another reason why I'm going to put the calendar out in big (somewhat expensive) and small (relatively cheap) sizes.

The quality, however, should be the same.

I do not begrudge Mr. Goodsen or anyone how much they want to charge for their services or products. That's neither here nor there. I would, however, be annoyed if I paid $4,000 for a horn and found out a couple weeks later that a DIFFERENTLY NAMED horn that's identical in all (or most) respects, other than the name stamped on the bell, is being sold for $400.

I *think* that's one of the reasons why people are interested in determining where these horns are made. China and Taiwan make a lot of, for lack of a better word, "stencils".

Mr. Goodsen has an "interesting" attitude toward beginners and he may be pricing the horns to reflect a "pro" market, only; i.e. "if you can't afford it, you aren't 'pro' enough".

(Bill should have another laugh at that.)

Now, I can also say that I've read many reports that it costs far more to make a Yamaha 875 Custom than they sell 'em for -- and cheaper than top-line Yanis, Keilwerths, Selmers, etc. The reason Yamaha has done this is to get lotsa pros to buy the horns and say how great they are, so Joe Average Consumer will buy a 275 because "Yamaha makes great saxophones! $Bigshot loves the 875!"

[tjontheroad]

Yikes!!! What a dismal way to launch a product! May I suggest to all involved some fine reading;

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=br_ss_hs/002-4402816-0195258?platform=gurupa&url=index%3Dblended&keywords=branding

[Stacey]

Wings are good, saxpics. Sounds very good.

As for salad, as I learned from The Simpsons, "You don't win friends with salad!" (There's a whole song and dance to accompany it, but that doesn't work well in an online forum.)

When will the 2007 calendar be available, and how do I order one? My new cube is 5x5, and I might as well be facing a saxpics calendar.

That's interesting about the 875 custom. Sounds like good marketing... a bit out of place in this thread.

[Pete]

The Yamaha was just a good example. It's also sorta the way I was introduced to them: a long while ago, I needed an alto. I thought about pro. I heard good things about the Yamahas. I tried an S80 (II, I think). It didn't impress me. So I tried a Yamaha 875. Much nicer (to me) than the S80.

I got a 23, though. The next year I got a YBS52, only because the 62 wasn't all that much better and Yamaha (still) doesn't make Custom baris.

===========

The due date for Calendar submissions was extended to August 31, so the pictures won't even be finalized until then -- I'm actually still adding holidays and such (I added major US, UK, AUS and CAN holidays, this time, plus about 50 more significant sax events. www.lulu.com's got some odd "date setup thingy", so I have to add the events and THEN the dates, or they get shifted when it hits 2007).

They SHOULD be available in 11" x 8.5" and 19" x 13.5" sizes. They will also be ready to go sometime in September: I want to get my proofs and then I'll let the folks that contributed pics take a peek at a PDF. THEN I'll be selling. I also have to talk to Harri to find out how much it'd cost to get a banner. On another (non-sax) website, I've already got the rates.

[carpenter]

Ref. prices for what's likely a Taiwan horn? Simple: Nope! "The next Mark VI"? Well, Maybe after VI hits of orange sunshine. Please guys..... whatever happened to common sense? Ain't so common anymore? If you're going to pay bucks, get something that's been around; something known.

[Saxaholic]

Ref. prices for what's likely a Taiwan horn? Simple: Nope! "The next Mark VI"? Well, Maybe after VI hits of orange sunshine. Please guys..... whatever happened to common sense? Ain't so common anymore? If you're going to pay bucks, get something that's been around; something known.

Like a Martin! :D

Saxaholic

[retread]

Yeah, the price of Refs and the SG tenors look kind of foolish compared to pauwl's beautiful 10M he has posted for $2300..

[Grumps]

...payment in full at time of shipping.
Shipping from where, Texas... or that other place?

Will allow a trial period but if not satisfied we will refund your money less all shipping and credit card costs imposed.
How long a trial period, and what do you mean by credit card costs imposed?

Do any of these horns have the country of origin stamped/marked/labeled upon them?

[Stacey]

Yeah, the price of Refs and the SG tenors look kind of foolish...

... all on their own, no comparison needed (IMO).

I can already say "I can remember when you could get a new CAR for the price of a Reference horn today." I fear that soon I'll be able to say "I remember when you could buy a HOUSE for the price of a Reference horn today."

[SAXISMYAXE]

Like a Martin! :D

Saxaholic
I'm with you Saxaholic;)

[morgan]

I just meant IF that were true, what the implications would be.


Kinda like, IF rgone's story was a complete fabrication, then you would predict he'd not answer what city it took place in or who was the contact.

[Saxaholic]

I'm with you Saxaholic;)

Great minds think alike! I've never been happier with my sound on any horn. Although I DID play a Chu Portrait model that SMOKED, but the intonation wasn't nearly as good as my Martin and the ergonomics weren't, either. Great sound and response, though.

Why bother to pay $3,000 for a new horn when you can get monster alto's for ~$1500 with fresh overhauls??? I guess I won't understand; I've been converted.

Saxaholic

[Hurling Frootmig]

I'm going to reserve judgement on these horns from LA Sax until such time that I actually can play one. I saw an early prototype at NAMM in Indy and it looked like a solid enough horn. I'm not sure anyone needs the altissimo key but the market will decide if that is the next thing that needs to be added to the sax.

I didn't ask where the horn was made as I knew I wasn't going to get an answer and I'm not sure that it matters. If I played one of these horns or any other product from LA Sax and it made me want to put away my other horns then I would consider buying one. I have a couple of nice VI's and a bunch of nice vintage horns so I really don't need another horn. The bar is set rather high for any further horn purchases as I don't think I can sneak anymore horns past my wife. She's noticed that there's a bunch of horns under the bed in the guest bedroom :D

LA Sax just needs all of the new inventory out into the field and people will give their opinions. If I find one in the Chicago area I'll post my thoughts.

[Bill Mecca]

I thought I read somewhere these were supposed to start shipping in March 2006, or am I mistaken?

[Hurling Frootmig]

I seem to recall a much more agressive ship date as well but having worked with multiple suppliers and vendors now I understand how estimated dates can slip.

[Stacey]

Actually Bill, they were supposed to start shipping "immediately after NAMM", that's immediately after the NAMM meetings in Indy in July of 2005.

Any day now, no doubt.

[Grumps]

Henceforth the call for the clarification of which shipping event would invoke the full credit card payment; shipping to the customer, or shipping to the dealer from whereabouts unknown...

[Morry]

I've got a hundred bucks that says sooner or later we'll see a post on here from a disgruntled buyer who never got his horn or his money back. Takers?

[Grumps]

Forget all that... I'm ready to cast the movie.
How 'bout that Philip Seymour Hoffman guy for the lead?

[Stacey]

How much are they paying the extras? I could use a little extra dough...

I could be "Man #6 in restaurant". It's the role I was born to play.

[gary]

Simple question because I'm confused.
Wasn't the original SG Sax problem with Unison?
If so, why would the same problems with distribution, advertisement, etc. carry over to LA Sax. Are they the same?

[Mark5047]

Well, that WILL answer the question as to whether it was a distribution problem or not. SG claimed that to be the real problem with the Unison SG units. Different distribution, different manufacturer - one common denominator. All this, of course IF the new SGs never hit the streets.

[Grumps]

Wasn't the original SG Sax problem with Unison?
If you believe the designer's claims after the fact... but then again, when he first began promoting those horns, I believe he claimed to be in charge of US sales and marketing. At least this go round, he claims only to be an employee designer and artist liason for Orpheus, who he claims is the parent company of LA Sax. Thing is, do you recall the past complaints about deposits? Again, I believe those complaints were made against him; not other dealers and not Unison. Do you think he sent Unison all the deposit money he received? Because in the end, he said anyone with any outstanding problem needed to see Unison, not him. He washed his hands of it, and at that time, there was at least one poster here (trumpetbil) who claimed they still hadn't gotten any satisfaction. I would really like to know if he's taking orders at these shows and accepting deposits. If that's the case, then I wouldn't expect things to turn out too differently, new label notwithstanding.

[gary]

Thanks. That is what I really wanted to know; no hidden agendas. ;)

[whaler]

But they "smell like Hippie girls". Is that good??i

[morgan]

... I wouldn't expect things to turn out too differently, new labe