Mental disorder/illness/disability

[k-ghost]

Is the musical mind more frail than "normal" minds ?. What are your personal experience(ses) with mental disorders, illnesses, disabilities ?.

do you have any, or know anybody who are diagnosed and play music ?.

-k-ghost

[Razzy]

I find I'm more mentally stable than most... so I think it's to the contrary. Musicians, especially classical and jazz-oriented ones tend to be intellectuals and have strong wills. I mean really, how else would we get to our professional level. Right now many might call me a semi-pro, but I still feel that I know JACK in terms of music. I find myself surrounded by those who experience depression, bipolar disorder (my mother), drug/alcohol problems... sure we all get our down times and mopes but I wouldn't say I have any of those things. Nor do most musicians that I know. However, you'll probably find more musicians than non-musicians that tend to be melodramatic, over emotional, and "frail" like you say. This, I think, is not specific to music but rather a trait more common in those pursuing intellectual goals.

[morgan]

Bipolars and depressives aplenty - - but with music as an inner healing force, better off than if they weren't musicians.

I also know at least one diabetic musician -- he does great.

[Nefertiti]

I don't know. A while back I read David Burns "Feeling Good" His list of ten forms of twisted thinking all related to me and music. See where you stand.

1.All or nothing attitude. You see things in black or white categories. If a situation falls short of perfect you see it as a total failure. You hit one bad note on a solo so the whole thing was awful. Your not making enough money as a musician to get by so your a failure as a musician.You play on stella great but someone calls Giant Steps you fall apart and that means you suck as a musician.

2.Overgeneralization. You see a single negative event as a never ending pattern of defeat.You have a bad practice time. You think about how every practice time sucks and you can't grasp concepts and you should quit music instead of wasting your time.


3.Mental Filter. You pick a single negative detail and your vision of reality becomes dark and negative.

4. Discounting the positive. You reject the positive experiences by telling yourself that any one could do it. Or that they don't mean anything. If you did good you tell yourself it wasn't great and are bummed instead of being happy it was good.

5.Jumping to Conclusions. You interpret things as negative when the bass player makes a face . Or you predict that things will turn out badly when you go the open mic.

6.Magnification. You exaggerate the importance of your short comings and minimize the importance of your strengths. You always think about all the stuff you can't play instead of maybe giving yourself some credit for the things you can play.

7.Emotional Reasoning. Your feelings dictate the truth. I feel guilty for not practicing enough so I must not be practicing enough. I feel insecure so I must not be good enough to hang with these musicians.

8.Should Statements. You tell yourself that things should be the way you hoped or expected them to be. I should have practiced more when I was younger. I should be better than I am by now. I should practice 10 hours a day. I shouldn't have made so many mistakes on that tune. You motivate yourself by setting up a list of shoulds for yourself and when you don't do them you say I should have done the impossible thing that I wrote down that I should do. Now I really won't be as good as I should be!!!!

9. Labeling. Instead of just saying I made a mistake you label. I'm a loser. I suck. I can't play. ......

10. Personalization and Blame. You hold yourself personnally responsible for an event outside of your control The bass player plays the wrong changes you sound like crap on your solo and you think "I should have been good enough to hear what he was doing"

Maybe I'm alone in all these things. If you've never thought some of these things then ugh!! never mind . Me neither :lol:

[Balladeer]

It's not just applicable to musicians. Those who feel the calling to express themselves via an artform are often vulnerable to the various sufferings of the soul. People of the arts must become strongly attuned to their feelings and the feelings of others. This may result in hypersensitivity which can lead to moodiness, depression and euphoria.

I've tried beating this and the only thing that works for me is faith in the Lord and belief in Jesus.

[Nefertiti]

Balladeer,
The Lord Jesus and Grace can work wonders for this mindset but I know from personal experience that if you get involved in a works or legalistic type christianity twisted thinking will invade right into your religious beliefs also. After 12 years of being a christian I'm really appreciating why Paul wrote so much about Grace.

[Razzy]

Interesting how many musicians I've met turn to religion and beliefs to deal with the stress, or have since a young age. Since the age of 7 I've been pretty much atheistic, areligious (not necessarily anti-religious though, or anti-god, I simply do not believe in it), and have always done pretty well for myself. I deal with stress by writing fiction, poetry, prose, drawing and painting landscales, now and then just sitting down and fleshing something out on the piano.

Those ten things you've listened are applicable to everybody's life in some way, not just musicians or even just artists. But I will agree that artists have more attuned and sensitive emotions and thus are probably on some level more susceptible to those things.

[Ivy]

In my 25 years plus being a musician, I've run across many players with bipolar disease. It is the highs of this disease that can make a person feel inspired and creative (until it gets to the point where it's counter productive). The depression also makes you play tunes like "you've changed" with so much feeling.

I wished it is just a question of will, as Razzy said, or knowing intellectual concepts which makes a musician great. But I think it is emotion which makes music so powerful. This is what the greats really have: an ability to evoke emotion over the listener. As Stan Getz said, "it's not the mode, but rather the mood".

I don't want to name names but there are countless well known musicians and artists who have bipolar disease.

[morgan]

...I read David Burns "Feeling Good" His list of ten forms of twisted thinking all related to me...

Unless I'm mistaken, the point of that book is not
---->"o my gosh I have that problem" [boy am I in trouble now!]
but rather: by
---->recognizing these patterns (you've already excelled at this) and
---->discovering/practicing other ways to perceive the trigger situations,
you can
---->end a lot of needless misery
---->more effectively pursue what you actually wanted to do

As to whether you can do it just from a book, I'm dubious. A thousand bucks spent on a good CBTherapist might effect changes in your life that you find worth a million.

The degree to which these cognitive issues are correlated, or unrelated, to physiological mental illness - - fascinating and unclear.

[pepper]

i think that i would be a lot less sane if i never took up music.

i started playing about two years ago now, and possibly due to a slightly obsessive streak, have thrown myself into it fully. i've always had bouts of depression from time to time, but find if i have something to focus on (music) then i can work through it.

the amount of time i've spent on playing or thinking about music in the past two years could easily have been spent being miserable or drunk or wiped out on drugs.

i really dont know how i'd fill my spare time without it to be honest. the fact that music fills a hole and keeps part of my mind occupied is a very positive thing for me.

[Grumps]

Perhaps there is also a correlation between those with mental disorders, illnesses and disabilities and those banned from further use of this forum?

[jazzbluescat]

I don't know. A while back I read David Burns "Feeling Good" His list of ten forms of twisted thinking all related to me and music. See where you stand.

1.All or nothing attitude. ...
2.Overgeneralization. ......
3.Mental Filter. .....
4. Discounting the positive. ....
5.Jumping to Conclusions. ....
6.Magnification. ....
7.Emotional Reasoning. ....
8.Should Statements. ...
9. Labeling.......

10. Personalization and Blame. ......
Maybe I'm alone in all these things. If you've never thought some of these things then ugh!! never mind . Me neither :lol:

Holy smoke, batman! You're skeering me. :shock:

I believe that I've gone thru 'bout all these; and swung from one to another....bounced around like a ball in a handball room :roll:

I think often times that musical folks feel compelled to "pay dues," and therefore self-impose a lot of these stressful perceptions upon themselves.

[Subtone Sam]

Charlie Parker,Bud Powell,Thelonious Monk,Ludvig Van Beethoven,Van Gogh,Charles Mingus etc.etc. were all diagnosed as "mentally ill" in some point of their lives.These people had highly creative,sensitive minds and when it comes to headshrinkers and their craft,anything that is too far away from their opinion of "normal",is sickness.
Alcohol/drug problems,which often include mental disorders,were and are very common amongst musicians and other artists,sadly.

[Grumps]

...better known as medicalization of the human condition.

If you can medicalize it, you can treat it.
If you can treat it, you can charge for it.

[morgan]

Charlie Parker,Bud Powell,Thelonious Monk,Ludvig Van Beethoven,Van Gogh,Charles Mingus etc.etc. were all diagnosed as "mentally ill" in some point of their lives.
The diagnoses are not really controversial. These guys had some serious personal problems.

These people had highly creative,sensitive minds
Which often occurs along with mental illness, but is not the same thing. It shines through, or around, or is impeded by, or leaves one vulnerable to, or is unrelated to; but the creativity is not the illness.


and when it comes to headshrinkers and their craft,anything that is too far away from their opinion of "normal",is sickness.
What a grotesquely ignorant statement. Shame, Subtone: I expect better from you.


Alcohol/drug problems,which often include mental disorders,were and are very common amongst musicians and other artists,sadly.
And often the root cause of addiction is undiagnosed, untreated mental illness. Given proper treatment, many (late lamented) musicians might never have got hooked on the booze or smack in the first place.

[1saxman]

In a nutshell (pardon the pun), the musical brain is demonstratively more 'frail' than 'normal'. This is because the most truly gifted always seem to be the most tortured. They also rarely achieve measurable material success. Many musicians do, but with few exceptions, they are not considered 'greats', except by their fans. You see, only the real natural-born musician would be expected to fall victim to this frailty, not the everyday practicioners who have learned an art to perfection - I mean the inspired innovators - so reeking with talent that there's no end to the music, no stopping it as it threatens to burst your very skull to get outbeforeyoucanwrititdow......
Ahem. You see what I mean, of course.

[Subtone Sam]

morgan,you have good points there but they are really matters of opinion.Its actually a case if you BELIEVE in this science called psychiatry or not.There is very thin line between "normal" and "abnormal" but psychiatry claims that they are able to draw the line and many people believe what they say without questioning it.Psychiatry is relatively young form of medicine and lots of the theories (like Freud's) have been proven totally wrong yet still much of psychiatry is based on these false theories.All I'm saying is that its worth while to try to think outside the box and try to accept people as they are,to question what we usually think as "normal" or "abnormal".With people like Charlie Parker,Mingus,Bud Powell or van Gogh,we are talking about exceptional people with exceptional talent.You can't really expect these kind of people to create masterpieces from 9 to 5 and then go home and sip couple of martinis while watching "Wheel of Fortune".It doesn't work like that; these people were and are geniuses and should be treated as such.

[beth]

weird, i was just discussing a similar subject with my friend last night while we were aimlessly driving about and talking. i(we) felt that musicians (and all artists for that matter) are a different 'breed' than the rest. there must be something different with our minds that lends itself to better our creative persuits. we found, as someone mentioned earlier, so many musicians are intellectuals as well as in touch with their emotions, and thus, musicians are often more over emotional than non.
as for mental illness, i can atest to that as well.
as someone mentioned, many great players had been diagnosed with diseases.
as for personal experience...yeah.
i myself am a borderline, and have battled with bouts of depression and anxiety. many of my friends and fellow players too suffer from depression, as well as a laundry list of other diseases ranging from bipolar to OCD. i think i have come to know more people with mental diseases than not, and most, i suppose if not all are involved in the arts (music, art, writing, dance, drama)as a major peice of their life.
i truly think that we are different, and our minds work and function in different ways than the "normal" mind. and i guess these "abnormal" functions get labeled as diseases.
im not saying that all artistic people have disorders or that non-artistic people can't, that's not it at all....i'm just saying maybe the creative mind ticks a little bit differently...

[clem]

There are a lot of mentally ill people who do not have drug or alcohol addictions. However, there are few addicts who do not show symptoms of mental illness. In other words, mental illness is usually the cart drawn by the horse addiction. Many studies have borne this out.

So why do so many jazz and rock musicians seem to get caught up in addictions? The answer more likely has something to do with environment. The lifestyle of a musician makes it much easier to function while addicted than would be the case for, say, accountants. There is little routine and it is possible to even perform while high. But classical musicians don't seem vulnerable to drugs and alcohol, because they simply could not do what they have to do when high or hungover.

Read Art Pepper's "Straight Life" sometime. It is one of the most brutally honest autobiographies I ever read. Pepper was pretty sane and normal except when he was strung out. Then he had to cnmmit robberies and break-ins to get money to support his habit.

[Subtone Sam]

:shock:

[max]

I don't know about anyone else's experience, but when I was studying in a conservatory, the classical players could take all comers when it came to hard (and I mean hard) partying...

[morgan]

morgan,you have good points... thin line between "normal" and "abnormal" but psychiatry claims that they are able to draw the line ...Psychiatry is relatively young form of medicine .... try to think outside the box and try to accept people as they are,to question what we usually think as "normal" or "abnormal"... people like Charlie Parker,...exceptional... geniuses and should be treated as such.
First, I apologise for getting a little overheated.
Second, modern psychiatry has real validity. The treatments of fifty years ago were pretty feeble. Modern treatments with new knowledge of neurochemistry -- a whole new story, a whole new capacity to help.
But the issue with psychiatric treatment isn't abnormality. It's suffering. People don't seek out -- and pay for -- psychiatric care because they want to become normal, or lose their individuality. They do it because they are in agony. Psychiatric treatment is ALL about accepting people for who they are, and giving them a chance to live the life they choose instead of losing it behind a dark painful struggle with inner demons. The key question for patients trying a new psych med is "do you feel more like yourself on this drug?".

Give Charlie Parker good psychiatric care (and that is not an oxymoron -- nowadays, anyway), and you don't take away his genius. You take a passionate, dedicated man with a burning love of music and give him the freedome to make it thru the night without heroin; to (show up and ) play gigs without alienating everybody in the music business; to grow, decide to compose longer pieces or orchestrate his own string section or whatever direction he chooses; to survive past 35 years old and let his genius flower.

[navyvet]

As a certifiable disabled person, who was diagnosed with PTSD, I can tell y'all that having an anxiety disorder and being a musician is a really tough combination. I mean talk about "stage fright"! With the always present fear of having a panic attack or agoraphobia, it makes it so stressful to perform in front of an audience, having a bunch of strangers' eyes looking at you. And solos? Forget it - impossible - I freeze up. I consider myself lucky to even be able to leave the house. For 12 years I made a living at playing sax - it was a job I got totally burned out on. Now I play it just for my personal enjoyment, and that helps make me feel better.

[saxophone_volume1]

i am a budding young musician and i have a few mental disorders and anxiety is one of them. However i dont think it makes stage fright worse, because frankly if you get it, you get it.

this might be a deluded thought to a degree but i know many musicians who get stage fright and do not have mental issues. I dont mean to be defensive or anything but i think some of you have to take a look at the big picture like past the frame.

no offense to anyone

[Helen]

Interesting topic...I know quite a few musicians who suffer from bipolar and other psch. disorders...However, I know many more non-artisitic individuals who have those same disorders. I therapist friend of mine once told me that approximately 80% of the population has some form of diagnosable mental disorder spanning the range from mild to severe...I don't know how accurate this is, or where exactly this stat. came from, but it is does provide interesting food for thought...

[hannibal]

"Give Charlie Parker good psychiatric care (and that is not an oxymoron -- nowadays, anyway), and you don't take away his genius."

Bird was Bird not depsite all the mad things he did and felt, but because those myriad afflications and addictions combined with his natural abilties and personality to make the complete whole we know of as Bird. If you erase/alter some bits you affect to totality of the individual. Give Bird a good dose of psychiatry (a very difficult challenge, even now 50 years on- not a complete oxymoron, but a crap shoot at best) and at the end you will have a different Bird. Full stop. Perhaps happier, perhaps sober and living longer, but certaintly different. And who knows how that different Bird would play? Perhaps being drug free and mentally healthy he would take more of an interest in other things (his family?) and stop playing altogether. Who knows? Not us.

Psychology/psychiatry is a messy unexact science by definition. No one completely understands how the mind works so no one can 'treat' a supossedly 'ill' mind with 100% confidence.

Majoring in Psych (while my friends were all musicians), I did a few quasi-interesting studies on mental health and creativity. The psych. literature generally points to bi-polar disorder (manic-depression) as being more prevelant in novelists, musicians and especially actors. The other connections between mental health and creativity are more tenuous and less clinically significant.

I feel the greatest correlation between artists of all types and their mindset generally is that because artists tend to comment on the society that they live in, they tend to feel that they themselves are an observer looking in on a play or whathaveyou. That crucial sense of perspective allows the artist to observe and absorb the myriad interactions and events of society without directly take part in them. Jazz is more abstract than some art forms but the gener`l concept applies- and jazzers originally existed on the margins of society, looking back in and portraying what they wtinessed as emotive music.

Ah, and one last warning- :evil:

Be mindful of 'pre-med student syndrome' when reading some of these posts. Young med students (and psych majors) routinely diagnose themselves with all kinds of ailments after reading about them in a text book for the first time. After the first year of my degree I convinced myself I had most illnesses in the DSM III R (the checklist book shrinks use to diagnose people so they claim fees back from insurers). In reality, I wasn't depressed/schizophrenic/altistic, just plain weird. Which is cool, because it is helps makes me me :D

[hannibal]

"therapist friend of mine once told me that approximately 80% of the population has some form of diagnosable mental disorder spanning the range from mild to severe...I don't know how accurate this is, or where exactly this stat. came from"

You may want to the check out the Diagnostic and Stastical Manual used by shrinks to diagnose people- I think the current edition is the
DSM IV- R(evised). It is basically a description of mental disorders and a checklist shrinks use to diagnose you.

The first DSM (1850's?) listed a disease (forget it's name) that described slaves who ran away from their owners as having a mental disorder. Homosexuality was also included at the turn of the century as being a certifable mental illness. Today you can have your child diagnosed with a fear of doing maths! (Not to sound unempathetic, because I'm sure some kids actually do have a a dreadful phobia of mathmatics that affects their health).

Don't know where the therapist got his statistics but I'm sure 80% of us could be 'diagnosed' with some ailment or another. And they have to diagnose you with something from the DSM to claim fees back from insurance companies or the government. And as therapsits are human beings and living in a capitalist society... I'm certain that if you produced a copy of insurance details and walked into any shrinks office anywhere 9 out of 10 of them would diagnose any of us with something.

And before people start thinking that I'm a hardened cynic, the above is fact and proven by shrinks themselves. (In one study, a set of psychiatrists diagnosed a group of people as mentally healthy. These people were then placed in a mental hopsital. A second set of shrinks examined them and diagnosed them with disorders and wanted to keep them locked up!)

[Tenorsaxer]

I have always thought music was good for the mind on account of it using all sides of the brain. I myself am a stable person as are all of the jazz musicians I know so maybe I just got lucky on the friend department.

[Nefertiti]

I think we need to be careful of judging others or giving advice when we haven't walked in their shoes. I was one who thought that people with severe depression or anxiety just had to get their act together. I would offer advice to people that in retrospect was simplistic and clueless. A couple of years ago I went thru a 6-8 month depression. Thinking about suicide all the time. Sleeping all the time during the day. Not being able to get to sleep at night. Crying for no reason. No hope. No dreams. Just wanted to end it all. I went for counseling and took some medication and after about 6 months I felt like I was back to my self.
It was a rough time of life with my health and career but looking back I have no idea why I was so depressed. I've had situations that were worse before this and some since but for some reason that time was bad for me. I have the utmost sympathy for anyone who struggles with this on an ongoing basis. I can't even imagine. I could barely make it thru those 6 months.

[hannibal]

Nefertiti

Been there myself and know 1st hand that major depression is a real (and very frightening) experience.

I didn't mean to dispense advice to anyone or judge people; I certainly live in a glass house in that aspect.

But I do think how you define what is a mental ilness vs what is a personality trait, and wheter you can treat a mental illness without destryong the person connected to it is a fascinating area. And it does overlap with artists and musicians freqently enough to merit discussion here.

When I was living in the USA and my fiance was in Europe, the sense of sadness and melancholy, that pain, gave my music an emotional edge and made me a better sax player. When I had major depression, I couldn't get out of bed more over assemble my horn.

That's what I meant by the way artists look at their world from kinda the outside looking in. Serious mental disorder isn't the same.

[mostly alto guy]

Grumps is right. And to the idea that society did it, so now the government must pay, I blow a sustained, high-volume raspberry.

[morgan]

.. Thinking about suicide all the time. Sleeping all the time during the day. Not being able to get to sleep at night. Crying for no reason. No hope. No dreams. Just wanted to end it all. I went for counseling and took some medication and after about 6 months I felt like I was back to my self.
....

I get a little riled at the popular notion that I paraphrase as "psychiatrists just want to coerce everybody into their version of normal and bulldoze your individuality -- their diagnoses are useless and subjective -- treatment distorts the individual", because I fear it discourages others from seeking help in a similar situation.

Appreciate hannibal's more moderate statement:

how you define what is a mental ilness vs what is a personality trait, and wheter you can treat a mental illness without destryong the person connected to it is a fascinating area.


Fascinating, maybe, but not futile. There are plenty of reasonable and solid distinctions that you can make without throwing up your hands and saying "it's all a mystery!".
And I will continue to bristle at the extension that geniuses (or the rest of us creatives) should be untreatable or undiagnosable, and, out of reverence for the purity of their state, left alone in misery with a needle and a razor.

[clem]

A mental illness or an addiction is not part of a person's personality. If you want to know how Bird would have sounded when he cleaned up, listen to the tracks he recorded after he left Camarillo. But he was very ill when he played "Lover Man" and the Cole Porter songs he did on his last album. Y ou can see the same thing with Art Pepper and Prez and Chet Baker. A person taking drugs may certainly feel like he's playing brilliantly, but that's part of the delusion.

I would also challenge the notion that an artist performs better when he is suffering. Here again, the guy may think he is performing well because he is feeling such passion, but probably he isn't. So, do I really have to be sad to play "Willow Weep for Me"? I don't think so. Art requires skill and intuition. It's hard to create the beauty of sadness when you're distracted.

[saxtub]

Gee, I'm not depressed,bi-polar,schizoid,psychotic,suicidal,taking meds,undergoing psychotherapy,on drugs or alcoholic. I've been a musician most of my life. I know many players that suffer from various mental abnormalities and addictions. Is it a byproduct of creativity? Maybe so. I don't consider myself creative. I've never written any music that was published. I always play someone elses tunes. I'm just happy to play music and be free. I'm single and not tied down. Most of my friends are not in the musical profession. My responsiblity is to myself alone. I guess I'm what you call self-centered. I do the gig, collect my bread and split. I really don't care about the problems of other players. That's how I've maintained my sanity in this business.

[hershel]

clem, what does it mean "A mental illness or an addiction is not part of a person's personality." how do you define the terms 'mental illness, addiction and personality'? what do you think of the common phrase, 'addictive personality'?

i agree you don't have to suffer to make great art.
i play my best when my ego is out of the way, and i can often (not always)get it out of the way regardless of my emotional state when picking up the horn. and when i can do it, i am able to pick straight from vast stores of emotion, intelect and sheer energy to imbue the music with whatever mood i sense is appropriate. now, when i can't get to this place it is often because i am distracted by some problem. something like having just had a trivial personal tiff, or feeling sluggish, or wanting to show off or being depressed beyond just 'feeling blue'.

there is much mystery to how we operate.
there is so much that occurs chemically thru what we ingest, what we think or what we've inherited that creates highs, lows, sicknesses and healthfullness. so many of our choices are made consciously and with some self honesty we can deal with them. but how many are made unconsciously? and how many don't seem to be choices at all, but come from heredity or accidents or who knows what else?
there ARE some good people working in the mental health field. there ARE some good friends, some good diets, some good medicines(from the labs or the 'natural world') some good people communicating right here on this forum. hopefully, we can get some GOOD help when we need it.

[clem]

Hershel: I'm not a professional in psychology, but I've learned a good bit about mental illness and addictions from people I've known, books I've read, and let's say some personal "research". As far as the "addictive personality" is concerned, that is now generally considered a myth, if what you mean is a set of personality traits that can be taken as a predictor of future problems with addictions. However, once addicted, the "addictive personality" is what you will have, which will be very different behavior and thinking from what the person usually does. So Stan Getz tried to pull off a really poorly planned robbery and wound up in prison.

There are whole aisles in bookstores for books on mental problems and addictions. Better yet, read Art Pepper's autobiography "Straight Life". It seemed no matter how many times he went to prison or Synanon, he would go right back and do it again! If that isn't crazy....

[saxtub]

With the advent of psychiatry and the field of psychology, dosen't it make you wonder how the human race has survived these past couple of million years? Imagine, no antidepressant medications, no psychotherapy, no self help books. How did they do it?

[k-ghost]

thanks for the replies everybody, and even though this topic was intended to deal with the human mind and music. i´m actually happy that it´s not confinede only to that.


Saxtub wrote:

With the advent of psychiatry and the field of psychology, dosen't it make you wonder how the human race has survived these past couple of million years? Imagine, no antidepressant medications, no psychotherapy, no self help books. How did they do it?.


Well i guess they survived, but we have no means of measuring their life quality. Also life back then could have been less stressfull and more simple ( no cars, no comercials to tell you how you should look,eat and live ). perhaps our culture is evolving to fast for the human body/mind to cope with ???.

But psychology has always existede in some form or another, thinking of shamans/priestes driving out devils and demons. And people being confined in small cages and hosed with water. The only difference between then and now, is that todays psychologists and psychiatrics are a LOT more aware of what is going on today than back then.

Mozart was a genius in his field of work... But did he also had Asperger syndrome ???. If he had, were his asperger syndrome the reason why he was such a genius at his work. And if so, have his mental state made the world a better place...

contrary to many belifs, the field of psychology was evolved to help humans, not just to diagnose and confine them....

[saxtub]

We should all be greatful for psychologists. Things sure have improved, the world sure is a happier place now.

[morgan]

With the advent of psychiatry and the field of psychology, dosen't it make you wonder how the human race has survived these past couple of million years? Imagine, no antidepressant medications, no psychotherapy, no self help books. How did they do it?

Many of them suffered horribly.

And there's more - - until the last century, child mortality was dreadfully high. It was a pretty common experience to start the week with houseful of beloved children; and end the week with all of them dead. Hence Mahler's Kindertotenlieder.

The modern world may be stressful and full of evil, but it sure offers some big improvements over the olden days.

[saxtub]

Andrea Yates killed her five children in a few hours.

[hannibal]

If you ever care to extend your reading, two modern academic fields shed light on some of the recent comments-

Evolutionary psychology examines how the human brain developed in a Darwinian sense and how it struggles to cope with the modern world. We are currently blessed/cursed with a brain that evolved at least 50,000 years ago to cope with sabre tooth tigers, drought and ice ages. Very stressful indeed! But modern stress is different, more prolonged and longterm (daily work stress as opposed to 'watch out for that bear!').

Medical anthropology examines how disease/mental disorder varies and changes form culture to culture. For example, although schizophrenia is just as prevelant in Latin America as it is in the USA, in Latin America schizophrenia tends to raise its ugly head and then vanish, whereas in the States it tends to be a lifelong afflication.

There is some intersting modern research into how music fits in with all this. Some scientists now believe that sites like Stonehenge and the prehistoric cave dwellings in southern France were chosen for their acoustic properties! And as we know music seems to be an essential part of most cultures, including ancient ones (there is a flute made of bone found from a Neanderthal site).

By this logic, playing music should tap into some ancestral primordial human drive and help make EVERYONE musician and audience alike more sane, settled and happy :D But we didn't need a team of scientists to tell us horn players that, did we?

[Ivy]

Was that flute found in the Neanderthal site closed hole or french open hole? Probably a Yamaha.

[saxtub]

hannibal, "watch out for that bear", are you referring to the "flight or fight" response of human behavior? This most ancient of "animal instincts" has and still does serve us well. Although its no longer necessary to be on guard against sabre toothed tigers. We still must maintain a certain amount of vigilance against each other.

[hershel]

ahh yes, the ol' fight or flight bit. many of us today are great at getting reved up and not so great at cooling down. our adrenals are often overworked or burned out. too much sugar and caffeine are often used to compensate.

there are good stories of the ancients corresponding different notes of scales to different organs or nerve centers of the body. probably crosses paths somewhere along the line to the acoustic properties of their 'sacred places.'

clem, thanks for the response. i'm actually interested in how you and not the professionals would define those specific terms.

[clem]

Hershel: I'll try to explain what I mean, but like I said, I'm not a psychologist, I play tenor.

I consider the usual ways I consciously behave and think to be personality. I think of things like Nefertiti's list above to be personality defects, or even personality disorders if they cause problems with my health, relationships, or work. It's like my style of playing that others in my band are familiar with. It's how you can tell it's Stan Getz playing and not Wayne Shorter.

A mental illness can cause drastic and prolonged changes in my perceptions, to the point where they cause problems with health, relationships and work. I might be depressed or have hallucinations or think someone is following me to kill me or whatever. This is a major distortion in my thinking or perceptions that people who know me can tell something is wrong. A mental illness can be treated and I can recover. Personality disorders are part of the personality and usually can't be treated. My Dad's miserliness was a personality disorder. When I had a major depression I had a mental illness. I didn't want to play or hear music or even get out of bed.

You can get addicted to almost anything--drugs, people, ice cream. But Alcohol and narcotics distort thinking and perception, and if you use enough of them often enough and for a long enough period of time, you will get physiologically as well as psychologically addicted. Because you become ill when you don't get your fix, you will see the drug as a "friend" and won't want to give it up. Getting the drug becomes the #1 priority in life and anyone who tries to keep you from it is trying to hurt you and they "just don't understand". Thus Chet Baker jumped from his hotel balcony and Art Pepper committed robberies to pay for his heroin.
Perceptions are so distorted that you become mentally ill: depression, hallucinations, violent behavior against wives of friends, and so on.

I don't think musicians have anything wrong with them that makes them more vulnerable to addiction or mental illness. I believe that one thing that is special about musicians is that they are more sensitive to emotional stimulation from music than civilians. But because drugs are so available and generally tolerated in the music business that addiction and mental illness are occupational hazards. And by the way, I was not slighting classical musicians when I said they are less likely to have these problems. I think they emphasize precision in their performance more than intuition or inspiration. Jazz has long suffered from the myth that drugs somehow stimulate the creative imagination. Writers (alcoholic ones) have long claimed that they do their best work while they are drinking, but that simply isn't true. Faulkner used to say he needed whiskey to write, but we know that actually he went on binges AFTER he was finished writing.

Next time you feel "inspired" by the "spirits", try recording yourself and then listen to it when you're sober.

[Razzy]

Good stuff there, but drugs don't always hamper the creativity or precision of a performer or artist. I went to see Chris Farr play tenor in the Mike Kennedy quarter, and Chris was knocking heiniken's down like they were water, probably on about his 8th one by the time the last set was over. Man, he just kept sounding better as the night went on.

[electricninja]

I totally fit those 10 points. Another problem is when music as expression is too effective; it magnifies whatever unhappy feeling I'm trying to shake off.

It's like that Steely Dan song, "Deacon Blues".

[navyvet]

I don't know much about psychiatry, etc. All I know is I suffer from PTSD, which is more accurately a psychiatric injury than it is a mental illness. I won't go into the whys or hows, but I've learned to manage with it. That I am a musician is just a coincidence, has nothing to do with the disorder. It just makes some things harder when you worry about panic attacks, fear of crowds, memory loss, concentration problems and general brain fog. I just either tell people that I'm slightly brain-damaged or having a PTSD Moment. :? Thank goodness for Paxil and therapy. :)

[paulwl]

Depression here, related to ADD (ADD shows up in my music as a systemic left-brain disability - problems reading, counting, concentrating, and understanding verbal or conductor directions).

I sometimes make the hollow joke of calling ADD "Adult Discipline Deficiency." And in fact I have had the word "discipline" thrown at me so often it feels like a claw hammer to the back of the neck. :x In many areas of life I give people the impression of being ill prepared, ill organized, confused, and caring either too little or too much.

A strong basic natural ability helps, but yet it does not help, because what I can do gives people the idea that I am complacent (or maybe defensive) about what I can't do. In reality, some things are a LOT easier and others (sometimes very basic things) a LOT harder.

In this situation one learns early to punish oneself. The intent is a) to test oneself by other people's rules, because you want and need to live in the world with them, and b) to keep steeled against others' potential unkindness or misunderstandings.

In reality, it doesn't work. But the habit is learned in childhood before you understand the cost, and it's very difficult to break, except at the cost of all your ambition and desire - living "dead." A punishing personality OR a "dead" existence could cause depression all by themselves. Having to balance them (or at times battle both at once) compounds the problem.

Music is a focus for ADD/depression for me because I do feel a great need to at least try to bring more left-brain, systematic activity to my music. I have too much musical ability to ever want to keep it isolated or disabled, but it is a daily struggle to do it on my terms and feel proud and okay about that.

There is not much reinforcement in high-achieving musicians' circles for anything but the highest commitment and discipline. Everybody knows talented undereachievers, and nobody cries much over them: "they had it coming," "it's a tough business," "art demands more." All that has become a trigger for depression in me, which I deal with by doing music only on my terms.

I am always mindful of the reason Artie Shaw gave when he left music: "I couldn't become a half@ssed human being in order to be a whole musician."

[navyvet]

paulwl,
I can relate to a lot of what you are saying. I sometimes come across to people as being disorganized or just plain confused. I'm sure there are some who think I'm a total "wack-job". I tend to get easily overwhelmed, so I strive to not take on too much and work at keeping my stress level low, so that I maintain an even keel.
Normal functioning people often don't have a clue as to what it is like to be in our shoes (or in our heads I suppose). The worst are the ones who say "oh just get over it" when they don't have any idea of what you went through. I mean, how insensitive is that?
Sorry if I got off the track in regards to relating this rant to playing sax.

[Josh]

Through reading up on the Alexander Technique I've seen quite a few examples of a direct link between posture and depression. In many cases, depressed people who took Alexander were cured. Anybody have any experience with this?

[JL]

I think that most great artists, whether they be musicians, painters, poets, writers, etc. operate somewhat "close to the edge" in order to tap into the emotional elements and aesthetics of their art. Some of them get too close to that edge, perhaps.

Regarding those 10 points from "Feeling Good," I'd say they represent a negative mindset that must be overcome to achieve success in any artform, especially a performing art such as music.

For myself, music actually helps keep me sane. The enjoyment and discipline involved seems to fill a void. Since I'm not religious in the normal sense of the term,--I have no problem with those who wish to believe in whatever they want, but it all just sounds like fairy tales to me--- I guess music takes care of my "spiritual" needs.

[morgan]

Through reading up on the Alexander Technique I've seen quite a few examples of a direct link between posture and depression. In many cases, depressed people who took Alexander were cured. Anybody have any experience with this?
It's called "anecdotal evidence". Don't get your hopes up. The key question isn't "did a bunch of people get helped". It is, "supposing 1000 people with clinical depression tried this: how many of them would report a dramatic cure?". Generally the answer is: quite a few -- roughly the same as the number (out of 1000) that would report a dramatic cure if you gave them pink sugar pills but told them it was a new experimental drug ...


All of which is not to fault Alexander technique in its core application, which is better posture for fewer aches and better performance.

[Josh]

Generally the answer is: quite a few -- roughly the same as the number (out of 1000) that would report a dramatic cure if you gave them pink sugar pills but told them it was a new experimental drug ...


I understand what you're saying, but I feel that Alexander is different. In his book on Alexander, Richard Brennan says, "I wish point out that, of course, drugs do have their place and many people gain tremendous relief from them, but they are not in most cases the long-term solution to so many of our problems. In the case of depression, it is easy to see the body shape which accompanies such a condition. If you can alter the body shape through muscle release then the mental and emotional condition of the person will also change."

The principle of the sugar pill is tricking the mind into thinking you've been cured, while the Alexander principle would be more along the lines of fixing the problems. Regardless of whether or not you agree, both Alexander and sugar pill do present effective alternatives to medicines with potentially harmful side effects.

[morgan]

... If you can alter the body shape through muscle release then the mental and emotional condition of the person will also change...

As my grandpa used to say:

Interesting, if true.

[hershel]

robert fripp and his league of crafty guitarists were into alexander technique. they walked, sat, stood, and held their guitars all alike. kinda robotic. it was creepy, but l don't doubt at least some of them were healthier for it.
i am greatly imprdssed with the latest developments that are incorporating, for one example, the chinese model of meridians with the cutting edge of western fitness techniques. a very holistic and personalized approach.
paulwl, i have alot of respect for you doing music on your own terms. i wish more artists would do this, and i suppose they would if they were more appreciated for it. somewhere along the line a teacher told me 'we all have limitations, push them as far as you can then make the most of them, they belong to you, they can be beautiful and they can be your strength.'

allright clem, now l'm gettin ya. thanks for fillin in the deatails!

[paulwl]

paulwl, i have alot of respect for you doing music on your own terms. i wish more artists would do this, and i suppose they would if they were more appreciated for it.
Yes. So much of what artists do is work-for-hire that that becomes part of our ethic - part of what it means to be really good at what you do. A sign that you're worthy of respect, not just out there in your own world, living up to no real standards.

I say "on my terms" but I do have to make some compromises. Not working steadily is one of them. Happily, I can afford that financially. Question is, can I afford it professionally or artistically? It's an ongoing struggle not to stagnate or get out of touch.

The love of playing keeps me going, but negotiating the things I don't love about playing - that's another ongoing struggle. And another compromise is involved in that - never really knowing whether you have the respect of your peers. Part of this is a depressive trait, but part is because I know I haven't paid the same dues.

somewhere along the line a teacher told me 'we all have limitations, push them as far as you can then make the most of them, they belong to you, they can be beautiful and they can be your strength.'
Could be. I often wish I had the strength to push my limitations as far musically as I do emotionally. Ideally in music, the higher your tolerance for frustration, the better.

[tledjazz]

They told me when I started playing mental illness was a preqequesite. U mean it ain't? %P

On the real, all you have to do is look at the tragic, self-destructive some of our great artists have lived to know something's going on. I think in general artists are more sensitive and more deeply affected by their surroundings. Think about it: we take the world around us and interpret it in rhythym and tone. If we're playing Jazz or other improvised music we make it up on the spot, in the moment. The mind that can do that's got to be wired a little differently.

Having battled depression in my own life, I believe there's something to it all. To make music is to open up your very soul. If it's not firmly rooted and grounded in a firm foundation, you're succeptable to all kinds of things.

[paulwl]

Having battled depression in my own life, I believe there's something to it all. To make music is to open up your very soul. If it's not firmly rooted and grounded in a firm foundation, you're succeptable to all kinds of things.

What needs to be grounded? The music? Your soul?

And what is it about the words "firm foundation" that makes me feel a Christianity rap is coming? (speaking as one who never found doctrine to be any comfort in dark times..quite the opposite in fact...)

[Pete]

Ladies and gentlemen, while I submit that religion is germane to this discussion, Harri has made it very clear that he does not wish to have further discussions about religion on this website. I ask that posters respect this.

[hershel]

artists are sensitive to the art they manifest, for example, taking an emotion and successfully imbuing a song or painting with it. but in their interpersonal relationships i don't find artists to be any more or any less sensitive than non artists. i have found artists to be just as selfish, rude, bigoted, dishonest, generous, polite, tolerant, and trustworthy as anybody else.

to my way of thinking 'being grounded' not only gets us to make every effort to fulfill our personal responsbilities, but also enables us to get that too easily puffed up ego to exist in harmony with the other aspects of our 'being'. it enables us to be genuinely kind and considerate to ourselves and others while still retaining the ability to stick up for ourselves and not be taken advantage of (unless of course you're into that sort of thing, he-he). i also find that when i'm 'grounded' (ego in balance) my playing feels and sounds better.

i am only using the terms 'ego' and 'being' here as a model to help describe what is important for me to have grounded. i dare say, there are a multitude of 'models'.
so, what, if anything, is important for you guys to have 'grounded'?

[paulwl]

My turntable. Otherwise it buzzes.

My playing, in the sense that I want to communicate real feeling and musicality through it and not just a string of notes with no soul in them.

My sense of self. The strongest and most lasting way I do this is through music and the interaction with people that it brings. It is a depression-slayer. Problem is, a lack of opportunities, and knowing that I need to be pushed harder than most people to make opportunities, triggers depression. So I often forget how healing music can be.

(BTW, I apologize for bringing religion in earlier, however indirectly.)

[AuntSaxophone]

Hmm... You know, I do kinda see myself the way you're talking... Then again I was born in the year of the Dragon, was born a pisces, but was supposed to have been a taurus so I'm pretty weird as it is... People kept saying I was depressed, but you know, they just never listened to what I needed.

[whaler]

Ladies and gentlemen, while I submit that religion is germane to this discussion, Harri has made it very clear that he does not wish to have further discussions about religion on this website. I ask that posters respect this.
But isn't there a sacred sax (?) thread somewhere? Let's keep the sax out of the church and get it back in the bars where it belongs.

[AuntSaxophone]

I have been told that I suffer from Manic Depression, but that was during a time when I did not have a sax to play. (the school I was at did not offer any music classes) I have a feeling that when I am able to play the sax, I am much better off. It is like a cure for me.

[Sax in the Snow]

i think that i would be a lot less sane if i never took up music. i started playing about two years ago now, and possibly due to a slightly obsessive streak, have thrown myself into it fully. i've always had bouts of depression from time to time, but find if i have something to focus on (music) then i can work through it.

the amount of time i've spent on playing or thinking about music in the past two years could easily have been spent being miserable or drunk or wiped out on drugs. i really dont know how i'd fill my spare time without it to be honest. the fact that music fills a hole and keeps part of my mind occupied is a very positive thing for me.

Very well put Pepper. I have bipolar depression and several anxiety disorders and my sax is really the main stable thing in my life (I have 2 kids and an emotionally absent wife but they can be more exhausting than supporting).

The main thing that got me started in music a year ago was the desire to slow down the mental aging (ie forgetfulness, etc.) and to take a desperate stab at slowing down the Alzheimers that runs in my family. They say that drilling the mind regularly can help. Giving something to keep my mind occupied and constructively filling in the time are bonuses.