The trouble with Asian horns

[Jeff Foster]

In a word. GLUE. I'm new to Asian horns. About 2 months ago, I purchased a brand new J. Michael tenor. This past week I bought a used (like new) Cannonball alto. I love them both. The tone, action, playability are all very nice. The only problem I've had so far has been glue. Last Sunday I played my tenor at church. About midway through my song I hit a side key high C and the mechanism got stuck. When it was over, I realized that the little cork on the back of the octave key had fallen off which caused the octave key to depress too far and get in the way of the side C key. I found the cork on the floor and when I got home super glued it back on. Good as new. Then I was polishing the horn and happened to bump into the cork on the bottom of the side C key (ever so slightly). It fell off on the floor. More super glue. Good as new. Day before yesterday I was practicing my alto and suddenly noticed the middle D, E, etc. were sounding kind of stuffy. Turns out the neck octave key was holding open just a little because the cork had fallen off the bottom of the mechanism. Looked around on the floor and there it was. More super glue. Good as new. Then yesterday I was practicing my tenor and felt something hit me on top of my shoe. Looked around on the floor and there was the little white disk of a pearloid dealy that fits onto the biss key. More super glue. Good as new. Has anyone else had these problems or is it just me? In 30 years of owning and playing a Mark VI I don't recall ever having to super glue anything back onto it. Maybe the Asians need some better glue. Perhaps we could take up a collection here on the SOTW and send them a case of super glue. As for me, I'm not going to complain too bad as long as it's just corks falling off. I just hope they used a little better quality glue on the pads.

[Harrell]

I have a Saxophone.com tenor that I really love. It is a great, pro-quality horn and I really love playing it. But, I've had a couple of experiences like you described.

In the summers I play in a orchestra. Just before a concert, my horn would hardly play at all. I had no idea what had happened. The felt under the "A" key came off so nothing below A would play. Needless to say, I had to excuse myself and just leave. I've had those spacer-felts come off the lower stack as well, which influences the intonation (the height of the pad above the tone hole when open). I have "The Music Medic Clarinet Repair Kit" and I have used the glue that comes with it. I glued my sax felts back on with that stuff. But, the spacer felts on the lower stack are hard to get to unless you start taking the instrument apart.

I am very much looking forward to my Steve Goodson Unison tenor. I am expecting that there will be adjustment screws to take the place of these falling felts. I expect the Goodson Unison will be far superior. (It is so hard to wait, Steve!)

BTW, my youngest son plays a Selmer tenor and he has had felts and bumpers fall off it too.

[W. Minier]

I know it seems very trival but most people and manufactures don't know how to use contact cement correctly. You have to apply glue to both the cork and the key and wait for it/them to become tacky. But ,of course, manufactures can't do this. It, probably, takes to long. LOL :?

[jazzbluescat]

Also...., the differences in climate(primarily humidity) between where the horn was made and where it is shipped, is probably the main culprit.

[Knight Ender]

I've been playing a Cannonball Tenor for almost two years now, and I haven't had any problems at all. Next week I'll be putting it in the shop for a pad replacement and checking the adjustment....but it has been a very solid horn. And I am a bit of a rough player.....made the B key pearl on my Conn fall out last week :roll: . I've also heard that Epoxy is better to use.....but I'm not a tech.

[morgan]

The octave key collides with the side C? What the ...

[Andrew]

This doesn't only happen on asian horns. It has happened on my selmer mark vii once. During a solo at a concert, the left hand middle finger pearl just popped right off! I kept my cool though :)

[Jeff Foster]

The octave key collides with the side C? What the ...

Yep. The side C hole is very close to octave key. Weird design if you ask me. The cork on the octave key keeps it out of the way but when the cork is missing it depresses too far and they actually bump into each other. Can't complain too bad though. The horn sounds fantastic.

[Gordon (NZ)]

I agree that there are many non-Asian horns that have serious glue problems.

Note that Yamaha (at least the ones I see) and Yanagisawa are Asian.
It is very rare to find glue problems on these.

[pknight]

Yeah, Asia is a big place. Too big to paint with a single brush stroke.

[Media Lint]

I'm always putting cork and felt on my horns. Use contact cement in the prescribed manner (glue the part, glue the cork, let dry, adhere).

[Jake 35]

My Yani is amazing, as with the yamaha i previously played. I compared them to a Selmer Serie III and a Keilwerth Sx90, and i liked the Yani better. As far as long term maintenence goes for my Yani, it has never had a problem like that.

[MusicMedic]

I have "The Music Medic Clarinet Repair Kit" and I have used the glue that comes with it. I glued my sax felts back on with that stuff.

:cry: Warms my heart.....

[tomsch]

The other saxophone player in our band had two pearls fall off his Unison tenor. My Cannonball also had the plastic left-hand thumb rest fall off. Nothing that a good dab of glue would not fix but still pretty funky.

[kevvieg]

Asia is a large continent, but I think that the Japanese horns are well made (Yani, Yamaha), but the Taiwanese horns compare to Japanese horns like a Hyundai compares to a Honda.

[Merlin]

You driven a Hyundai lately kevvie? Damn, but they've improved.

[kevvieg]

I know they have improved, and they are now an excellent car. My point is that they are less expensive and less refined than thneir Japanese counterparts despite major improvements. The same goes for the Taiwanese horns. 5 years ago I wouldn't go near one. Now there are some that are quite good (ie. Cannonball) and some that are utter junk. Just like comparing a Hyundai (good) to a Daewoo (ok monitor, bad car). I know you will recommend the Jupiter. I haven't played a recent model. The ones I tried 3 or 4 years ago were horrible, but I acknowledge that a lot can happen in a few years, so I make no judgement.

[Anonymous]

The trouble with asian horns is that, an hour after you finish practicing, you need to practice again!

[MusicMedic]

That Ain't right

[retread]

A guy went into an auto parts store, said "I want a wiper blade for my Daewoo." The counterman replied "Sound like a fair trade to me."

[Anonymous]

But if that ain't, what is?

[Joe Jazz]

I think whomever ended up with the wiper blade got a steal!

[meacklof]

I bought a new Jupiter (Taiwan) alto two months ago from a guy who primarily does repairs to wind instruments. He gave me free adjustments for a year in addition to the manufacturer's guarantee. So far there's no aspect of it that dissapoints me. I play it about 15-20 hours per week.

[Bloo Dog]

I owned a '92 Hyundai XL (Korean). Okay car but wasn't a Toyota.
Owned an early 90's Jupiter. So so horn.

Own 1999 Jupiter 787. Excellent instrument (better than the VI I played through the '70's and '80's).

Bought a 2003 Hyundai Santa Fe after testdriving Subaru and Toyota SUV's. So far danged good. Chrysler bought ten percent of Hyundai's new American operation being built in Alabama (scary thought).

The Hyundai drives better than the Jupiter.

Jupiter plays MUCH better than the Hyundai. In a blindfold test 9 out of ten people could differentiate the Jupiter from the Hyundai. That's saying something.

I'm not sure what it says about either, but it sure made me scared of the tenth guy who couldn't distinguish the Jupiter from the Hyundai.

[singlereed]

If I had to buy a horn on-line or mail order knowing I had to take it out and gig it as soon as it arrived (i.e. no tweaking) I'd order a Yamaha or a Yanagisawa.

[Vader]

The trouble with Asian horns

Their horns? What about their drivers?

[girl]

Super Glue?! Repair technicians will hate you for that! When the pads wear out, it will be very difficult to remove them. Try something a little less strong.

[Leotomcov]

Asian is a broad term...clearly there is a quality difference between yamaha/yanagisawa and most of the Taiwanese horns.

[JL]

If you have a MK VI, why are you bothering with those Asian horns in the first place?

[Subtone Sam]

Its better to stick with well-known brands and their pro models,Asian or not.Yamaha and Yanagisawa have good reputations for a reason if you decide to go for Asian horns.Another choice is to go European or US made horns.If you get horn that has no reputation,its likely that there will be problems with quality.Stick with the major brands and you are better off.Thats my experience.Period.

[michaelbaird]

I've had a Cannonball knight alto and royal crown soprano.... the pads and corks routinely fell off. The silver plate was off in several places. I never did trust the pitch on the horns. I traded the alto for a selmer USA AS 100 alto and the soprano for a buescher trutone 1923 soprano. I do not miss the cannonballs and would be very suprised if I ever own another. I paid $1700 new for the soprano and got $600 for it. I paid $1300 for the alto used and got $600 for it also. Nashville Used Music has yet to sell either one! I traded the alto a year ago. I had several pads fall off the soprano. I think most of the Asian horns are over-hyped over-priced garbage.

[werkinsnake]

I'm with Mike. For the price of 1 "professional" Taiwanese horn, you can have 2 great playing CONN's/Bueschers/Martins/and possibly 2 King Zephyers. From the prices that horns have gone for recently, you may also be able to find 3 great playing stencil (made by one of the companies previously mentioned) horns for the price of one of these "professional" Taiwanese horns. The oriental market has made leaps and bounds in the past few years, but I truely doubt that in 80 years from now saxophonists will talk about the fabled JUPITER ARTIST SERIES. I'll be 99 years old by then, so I may just live long enough to find out. With everything that I've said about the more expensive oriental horns, keep in mind that I do endorse looking for a rare no name GREAT PLAYING horn in the $300-$500 price range. Such a horn is a diamond in the rough. I found one, and I never thought that I would even consider buying a knockoff horn. If you can try a horn that is ridiculously underpriced, then by golly TRY IT :!: If it plays like garbage, you've just educated yourself on what horn not to play.

[Bloo Dog]

If you're concerned about prestige and resale value, DON'T buy anything except a Selmer.

You know, thirty-some years ago, Yanagisawa was considered a trashy horn until its persistent marketing campaign put it at the forefront of the Asian market. The first yamaha tenor sold for $ 500.00 when Selmer Mk VI's were fetching $1200.00 new. Neither the Yanagisawa nor the Yamahas have changed appreciably since then. They were great horns then... they're great horns now.

Junk, everyone said. Myself included. I owned an played Mk VI's. Anything else was inferior, I thought.

I gladly parted with my Mk VI's after 15 years of professional playing (4-6 nights per week). They were not what they were cracked up to be. The finish on them wore comparatively quickly and the keys bent very easily. (owners of Mk VI's don;'t like to mention this).

DON'T buy any Jupiters. Please. And don't test play any either. It'll really mess up the market if this brand of instrument were to find its way into the "professional" market. This instrument actually targets the student market. If "serious" players (by my standards---guys who practice/ perform 30 or more hours per week) were to begin buying them, the students wouldn't be able to afford them. KHS (Jupiter) has manufactured musical instruments for 53 years. Its instruments are not new arrivals.

If you're playing a Selmer, and you play often enough that you can't afford NOT to have a horn ready to go, you should own a backup. Check out a used Jupiter as a backup. I think that if you were to spend time with a Jupiter 787 tenor or a 767 alto, you'd probably think more highly of it than if you never owned one.

I'm serious. Thirty years ago, you couldn't get me to change my mind about my Mk VI's. Now, when utility and manufacture is more important to me than brand name, I'll consider something besides a prestigious name.

And don't get me started on mouthpieces either...

[michaelbaird]

Actually, I consider the Asian horns the Tiawanese horns. I think the Japanese horns have proved themselves. I want to see the Tiawanese ones do the same.

[KEN K]

Bloodog..Have you looked at a NEW Jupiter horn lately or any of the other Taiwan horns? Many of the horns made now in Taiwan have been upgraded many times and are not the poor quality of decade ago.Some are pretty good .

[Sigmund451]

I wont say Ive never used superglue for a small cork or two but its far from ideal. The stuff sticks like crazy alright but its also very brittle so the risk of the event happening again is pretty high as compared to using contact cement and or something with a little flex to it...Im sure Gordon knows which glue is better for those little jobs. Super glue can also mess up a finish on a silver horn as I understand it. I try to keep it away from my horn in general.

[Merlin]

Ken K - reread bloodog's entire post. He's NOT dissing Jupiters.

[KEN K]

Merlin ...Yes he is...Don't buy Jupiter-don't even test play one ?????

[werkinsnake]

Don't buy Jupiter-don't even test play one

That sounds like some friendly advice to me. :)
Seriously though, I haven't played a Jupiter newer than 3 years old. All but one were school owned tenors. Obviously when you let a bunch of high schoolers touch and use a horn on a daily basis, it's gonna get messed up. Regardless of this, the Selmer Bundy's hold up to anything you can dish out at them. The Jupiters seem to come out of adjustment if you stare at them too intensely. The rods on the Jupiters are also quite flexable. Too flexable if you ask me. The Bundy's as well as the Yamaha student models, student Armstrongs, and student Kings have very durrable construction. The metal on the later three horns mentioned is also thicker than the Jupiters. As I said, I haven't played on the newer models of the Jupiters. They may have made a 180 degree turn around for all I know. But the fact remains that I cannot get a chance to play a new Artist model because none of the music stores around here carry them. I would think that there is a reason for this considering that the big outlet around here carries the BIG 4 horns as well as many student models. The Tawianese horn market it still not that big. Anyone want to take any guesses to why?

[Morry]

Merlin ...Yes he is...Don't buy Jupiter-don't even test play one ?????

He's saying that he doesn't want folks to discover what good horns they are, because then the prices will increase like they did for Yamahas and Yanagisawas.

[Bloo Dog]

Morry,

That's exactly my point. They're excellent instruments. I own three of them.

They are much better made than my MK VI's. The finish is better and the key rods are actually LESS prone to bending than the MK VI's.

Werkinsnake --- have you ever seen the rods on the upper and lower stack on a Selmer MK VI?

I'd recommend that advanced players run away from them as fast and as far as possible--- until I buy my baritone sax. Then I hope they're "discovered" and the prices are driven up and out of reach of the average buyer. The Jupiter 767 and 787's are excellent instruments. the only way to know is to own one.

[Merlin]

Bloodog - give the Artist Series horns a try. They're even better than the 700 series.

[werkinsnake]

I've played a VI tenor before. If memory serves, it was a 1965 model. Construction seemed pretty sturdy. Much sturdier than the Jupiters from a few years ago. I haven't had a chance to play on any Jupiters newer than that. I'd be interested to see what they are up to now.

[sw3119]

I have a sax.com alto that I played on for 2 1/2 years.

I never had any pads or cork fall off. It always played well.

I have a series II now and I just picked up a mark VII.

I think I'm going to sell the series II and keep the .com
as a back-up. (can't get what I paid for it anyway)

But in hind site, If I were in the same position today I would
not buy another .com when I know I can pick up a used
markVII or series II for almost the same price.

[Bloo Dog]

Werkinsnake:

The rods on the right hand palm keys and the rods on the left hand spatula keys (C#, B, Bb) sagged on my Mk VI's. There was no support fpr the relatively long expanse of soft brass.

Consequently, the left hand spatula keys tended to require close monitoring.

Look at most of the better saxophones now. You don't see such construction. Even the disparaged Jupiter provides support for these keys.

My jupiters don't go out of adjustment from proper handling. A highschooler on a marching band tends to treat his instrument with less care than, say, an older musician.

I won't argue the merits of this instrument until I buy a new Baritone sax.

So until further notice, I will say that the later Jupiters are really crummy.

[Andres]

I would not buy another .com when I know I can pick up a used markVII or series II for almost the same price.

:!: :?: Heh? :shock:

The most expensive sax.com alto runs about $950. If you can pick up used VII's and Series II's for that price, please let us know where you're shopping. I've not seen a used VII or II alto for less than $1400 (even from private sellers) anywhere.

Not that I'm in the market for one. My Prestini Classic tenor has been just fine for me, and has held up better than my teachers' 104xxx VI tenor.

[sw3119]

I picked up my mark VII alto for $1100 on ebay
and the series II I got for $1300 also on ebay. :D

[Andres]

Deal(s) of the century. Lucky you!

[sw3119]

Believe it, or not, but the mark VII was a 3day auction
and I was the only person who bid on it.

[Bloo Dog]

Andres,

When i was looking to replace my horns, I looked at the Prestini, but only on Ebay. I've never seen one in person. What is your evaluation of this instrument? Do you have any photos you could send me?

I know that the Prestini pads are or were manufactured in the U.S., but what about the horn itself? I looked through the Thomas Register a few years ago, but i found no Prestini listed as an American manufacturer of saxophones or any other instrument. Is this a brand name of another manufacturer? Do you know?

Bloo

[frobig]

Prestini horns are Taiwanese (or maybe mainland Chinese) horns marketed by Prestini Pads. If you think American stencils are confusing, don't even mess with the Taiwan/China stuff! There are probably dozens of factories turning out hundreds of brands over there, and some of those brands may come as a batch from one maker, a batch from another maker, etc. Some of them are pretty bad, but some are fine for students and even intermediates. At least there aren't as many crappy Chinese saxes as there are crappy Chinese trumpets...yet. And watch out ahead. I recently saw a Vietnamese alto. I didn't get to play it, but it didn't look bad...
If you're not a tech, there are lots of things you may not know about lots of horns. For instance, no American sax of the last 30 years has left the factory with level tone holes. You might like the way a Bundy plays, but trust me, if you had to make them play yourself, you'd be less impressed. And no Asian sax could possibly drop pearls the way a late-model Conn does. The Yamaha YAS-23, and the Vito alto that's its twin, consistently leave the factory with leaky low C's, and you can't fix them without shimming the pad.
Personally, I have a King Super 20 tenor and a Yanagisawa A-880 alto, but I think the best horn to work on is probably a Martin. The keys are stout as hell, and nothing can budge those battleship-armor tone holes.
By the way, if you're going to glue your own felts and corks, you're really best off using contact cement. Super glue is okay for pearls, but it ain't so hot for the softer stuff.

[werkinsnake]

If you think American stencils are confusing, don't even mess with the Taiwan/China stuff! There are probably dozens of factories turning out hundreds of brands over there, and some of those brands may come as a batch from one maker, a batch from another maker, etc.

On a seperate note...
Did you know most batteries (name brand to generic) are all made in the same factory?

If you're not a tech, there are lots of things you may not know about lots of horns. For instance, no American sax of the last 30 years has left the factory with level tone holes.

I think that may be overexaggerated. However, I'm not ruling out this possibility. I mean, what worthwhile horn has been made in the United States in the past 20 some years? Selmer USA is the last of the Elkhart companies. I bet that they're still using outdated machinary.

And no Asian sax could possibly drop pearls the way a late-model Conn does.

I presume that you are talking about the last ones made in Elkhart? I have heard that thier consistancy around this time was horrible. I don't pay attention to models after the move. I consider these horns CINO's (CONN's In Name Only)

I think the best horn to work on is probably a Martin. The keys are stout as hell, and nothing can budge those battleship-armor tone holes.

Have you worked on the soldered tone hole models? They are an absolute nightmare to work on!!! Leaks are everywhere, and difficult to find. I'll admit that their metal is very thick, but I'll stick with their drawn tonehole horns.

[frobig]

Drawn tonehole Martins? Weren't you just talking about CINOs? What about MINOs? A real Martin has thick, soft-soldered tone holes. I've only been fixing horns for a little more than a year now, including school, but I've personally worked on three Martins, and had first-hand experience with at least a half-dozen more, and none of them had solder-joint leaks. If it leaks, heat it up and fill it in. Meanwhile, I'd have to say that Nogales-made Conns are as much Conns as any drawn-tonehole Martin is a Martin, and I'd have to say that I doubt that Martin actually made any drawn-tonehole horns, no matter what it says on the horn. There were a couple of Yanagisawa-built "Martins" on eBay last week, maybe there's a connection.
As far as "Mexi-Conns" and other Nogales horns--Kings and Armstrongs, for instance--my point is that, technically, they are American-made saxes, they are in the field in quantity, and they stink. Pearls fall off these horns almost universally, the keywork looks like it belongs on a dollar-store kazoo, and yes, the toneholes are notoriously un-level. Along with these, the Bundy II and the Yamaha 23/Vito have very poorly-drawn toneholes and ridiculously off-center pad cups. Look thru a dozen of any of these horns and see for yourself. I'd venture to say that not one example of these brands, manufactured in the last 30 years, would have passed the quality control at any American factory before 1960. So, American horns have devolved from original designs built with outstanding quality, to simplified copycat designs with quality you wouldn't accept in a twenty-dollar toaster, whereas Asian horns are moving in exactly the opposite direction. (Well, maybe the originality is just wishful thinking...) Jupiters and Winstons built in the last two or three years are much better horns than anything now being built in the US, or the 23-series Yamaha, for that matter. Maybe that's why the American sax factories are closed or closing. It's sad to see the industry go, but it isn't hard to see why it's happening.

[frobig]

Drawn tonehole Martins? Weren't you just talking about CINOs? What about MINOs? A real Martin has thick, soft-soldered tone holes. I've only been fixing horns for a little more than a year now, including school, but I've personally worked on three Martins, and had first-hand experience with at least a half-dozen more, and none of them had solder-joint leaks. If it leaks, heat it up and fill it in. Meanwhile, I'd have to say that Nogales-made Conns are as much Conns as any drawn-tonehole Martin is a Martin, and I'd have to say that I doubt that Martin actually made any drawn-tonehole horns, no matter what it says on the horn. There were a couple of Yanagisawa-built "Martins" on eBay last week, maybe there's a connection.
As far as "Mexi-Conns" and other Nogales horns--Kings and Armstrongs, for instance--my point is that, technically, they are American-made saxes, they are in the field in quantity, and they stink. Pearls fall off these horns almost universally, the keywork looks like it belongs on a dollar-store kazoo, and yes, the toneholes are notoriously un-level. Along with these, the Bundy II and the Yamaha 23/Vito have very poorly-drawn toneholes and ridiculously off-center pad cups. Look thru a dozen of any of these horns and see for yourself. I'd venture to say that not one example of these brands, manufactured in the last 30 years, would have passed the quality control at any American factory before 1960. So, American horns have devolved from original designs built with outstanding quality, to simplified copycat designs with quality you wouldn't accept in a twenty-dollar toaster, whereas Asian horns are moving in exactly the opposite direction. (Well, maybe the originality is just wishful thinking...) Jupiters and Winstons built in the last two or three years are much better horns than anything now being built in the US, or the 23-series Yamaha, for that matter. Maybe that's why the American sax factories are closed or closing. It's sad to see the industry go, but it isn't hard to see why it's happening.

[werkinsnake]

I had to laugh about your comment with the pearls dropping out of the Armstrongs. I have an Armstrong, and it's SOOOO true! My Armstrong alto is my emergency horn, and I think that I had to re-glue every pearl at some point. Regardless of the pearls, the horn has served me well in every other way. I've had the horn for 10 years, and I was NOT the original owner. Despite this, there is not one ping, ding, or dent in the entire body. I take it that you started working on horns in marching band, or some other school band, well I did too. I will tell you from my experience that the American horns (even the newer ones) held up much much better than the Asian horns. For instance, I have seen an Armstrong (NOT MINE) dropped from 3 feet hitting a lynolium floor comming out without a dent. In contrast, I have bent the keys on a Jupiter from playing it too hard (they just weren't designed with the Omni book in mind). On an Antigua Winds alto, the springs started breaking from average playing after a year of the kid playing it. Now I'm not saying that it's not possible to get a decent tone out of one of these horns, but a good player will sound good on anything. Why I DON'T like Asian Horns is that they are still not produced at a high quality level. Though it may be true that the Bundy's and 23's have ridiculously unlevel tone holes, I do not know ANYONE who had difficulty playing on one with this fault. But there is a reason why I LOVE Asian horns. Being the only person who could fix these horns in the school, the Asian horns offered me a lot of repeat business. 8) Well keep learning how to repair those horns. After a while you will like taking those saxophones apart as much as you like playing them.

[frobig]

Actually, I've never marched in my life, with or without a horn, and didn't take up playing, let alone fixing, until after high school. I work for the rental department of my company, and see lots and lots of student-level horns. As I say, I'm not a big fan of anything very recent, I think all the American factories turned out much better product before they started getting sucked into bigger companies, in the Sixties, and in fact I like these horns generally better than anything I've seen from overseas, but then I've never tried a Buffet or SML. I play a late forties Super 20 tenor, which is where I get my idea of what a sax should look, feel and sound like. I have worked on a lot of Alpines, which I'd be surprised if you've ever heard of; they're Taiwanese/mainland Chinese horns, and they're, in my experience, as tough as any Yamaha or American horn made since the Seventies, but built to a much higher standard, for about the same price. A big plus to these horns is that you don't have to fix them until after they've been used. I guess, by the way, that wavy tone holes on a sax aren't that big a deal, if the pad cups aren't level either! I guess that from a tech's point of view, the best I can say about the horns I've been putting down so far is that they're more like a Russian weapon, like a MiG or an AK-47: they're crude as hell, but it takes a lot to bring them down. Still, I don't like the way they look or feel, and it's just hard to make a horn play when the factory couldn't be bothered to do their part first (I promise you, every brand-new Yamaha 23 or Vito 7133 alto I've ever seen leaks at low C).
Now, what about these drawn tonehole Martins?

[saxbeginner]

bloodog,

how old is your Jupiter 787 tenor?

the Jupiter 767alto I've seen on eBay is 4 yrs old, not sure if they'd got good by then or not...????


thanks

[jr!]

FWIW, I own a Jupiter alto, that I bought in high school many years ago.
It's a Model 465 & it withstood all I could throw at it. I think its a 1986 vintage.
It still plays, of course its no MK VI, but it still works.
AND Supposedly Jupiter stuff sucked back then....

[Bloo Dog]

My Jupiter tenor 787-789 is a 1999 model, I believe. I bought it used from someone who bought it new in 1999. Nice horn. Very well-made. If I played as often as I did 20 years ago, I'd own three of them.

I suspect that many of the other "intermediate" level brands on the market are also Jupiters, judging by the similarities among them. Some of the "pro" level horns bearing the name of prominent endorsers resemble this horn as well.

This instrument represents an excellent value at most retail prices. Used and in good condition, they represent OUTSTANDING values.

Anyone who thinks the late model Jupiters are junk just isn't informed. My only gripe about the instrument is the cheapo "pearloid" keys.

[saxbeginner]

so a Jupiter 767 alto, that's 4 yrs old and in perfect condition (bought for daughter who hardly ever played it then gave up!), including a stand, a Yamaha mouthpiece and accessories for £280 is Good??
(for the UK that is..)

[Bloo Dog]

Well, I don't really know if that's a good price in the UK. I don't even know the exchange rate, so it's difficult for me to say. If the horn is in excellent condition and better than 25% less than real-world retail price, I'd say yes.

But I'm a cheapskate. 767's and 789's in very good condition may be gotten from Ebay for about $350.00. That's my own personal upper limit for a used Jupiter (in those models), even though i think that they are excellent instruments and worth more. The used market value for this instrument has crept upward during the past few years.

[frobig]

I think I should toss in a little "heads-up" here: I've read a few posts now where people think that this brand, that brand and the other brand are all made in the same factory; as Jupiter, above. Now, one thing I was told by a Keilwerth dealer a while ago, is that their st90's are made by Jupiter. At the time, I didn't know as much about Jupiter as I do now, so I was horrified! Now I think that if Keilwerth needed to farm out their student line, they couldn't have done better. What I think bears remembering is this: almost all Asian horns built today are direct lifts from the Selmer Paris line from the Balanced Action on up. Every aspect of these horns is either a direct copy or a slight variation from Selmer practice. And trust me, I'm not some Selmer fan bragging over how everybody wants to copy "my" brand. I'm sure I'll never own a Selmer, and I don't expect to regret it. But I do think that in the last 30 years, everybody got lazy and decided that the easiest way to build a successful sax was to do what the industry leader does. So when you see similar features on two Taiwanese brands, it's really because they're both copies of the same French sax. I could be wrong, and if Jupiter makes Keilwerths, I guess they could make anybody's horns; but modern technology means that it's much easier than it's ever been to make a saxophone, and factories all over the place are doing it. I've mentioned before that I recently saw and heard a "Barclay" that was made in Vietnam. It wasn't terrible! And, it was a dead ringer for a dead ringer for a Selmer. Identifying horns these days is much more subtle; for instance, I work on a lot of Alpines, and I know that their pad cups are absolutely flat, rather than convex. This is a pretty distinctive feature. And once in a while I'll see a Winston from, say, two years ago, and it has flat pad cups. A look at the serial number shows that it's very close to the numbers on Alpines with the same features: e.g. adjustable thumbrest and key bumpers, which only appear on Alpines from above 14,000. Knowing other things about both brands, I deduce that they were made on the same line at about the same time. The trouble with comparing Jupiters to other Taiwan/China horns is that Jupiters are much more Selmerish than they were twenty years ago. I worked on a pretty old Jupiter a while ago, and thought to myself: where did they get that funky octave lever? Then I saw a Buffet S1 last week, and the similarity was obvious. That octave lever is long gone now. In comparison, Yanagisawas are largely Selmer copies too, but little things like the underslung neck octave and the double arms on some keys are giveaways, which help identify late-model Martins and some Vitos as Yanis--that and the fact that every Yani stencil I've seen has their logo somewhere on it. So, I could be a glass-half-empty guy and say the fun of sax identification is gone because they're too damned similar, or I could be a glass-half-full guy and say it's more fun than ever, because it's so much more challenging. For now, I think I'm half empty.

[TheChristianSax]

Frobig,

Funny you mention the octave key on the old Jupiter. I have an old 767 that I am no longer playing. Most of the lacquer is gone, but it has a straight body and a sturdy horn. I am now playing a 1960 Buffet SDA, which is an amazing horn!!! I did notice that the unique octave key mechanisms on both horns were identical. Though a bit different, it is not a bad design and is quite easy to manipulate. The sound and response of both horns are totally different, with the SDA being a far superior horn.

I do agree that the Asian manufacturers are really improving their quality, as can be seen with the Asian built, American assembled Cannonball saxes. I have played a Cannonball Big Bell and was highly impressed with the build quality and design. So, hopefully with all of the competition it will make prices more reasonable, and that can only help us sax players. Take care all.

[Bar-Ron]

I'd be far more fearful of low quality North American braggarts Dealing horns than the quality of Asian horns in general. At this point the Asian horns come in all levels of quality and one must be far more concerned with the type of North American instrument dealer than generalizing the manufacturers under one blanket. A few unglued felts wouldn't bother me as that's an easy fix; more so than buying on some of these outlandish claims we see on the web.

My favorite braggadoshia, unrelated to musical instruments, is on an American truck "Super Duty"???? able to leap tall buildings in a single bound!

I have a "proffessional series" Bari that has the digit numbers of the student line Asian horn from that same store, that plays alright for the dollar and has lost no pads or felts in 3 years.
Looks like crud as the finish is wearing off, as it is matte silver lacquer not blasted silver plate like dealer claimed. The dealer was false not the manufacturer, as I am sure that when they sprayed on the finish they new they weren't plating it. Also the dealer was false about the model not the manufacturer as I am sure they stamp on them what ever you want.
The "Asians" don't worry me nor their glue.

[MLP1956]

I have a China made Venus alto and a Selmer Paris Mark VI tenor and haven't had any such problems with parts falling off. Even with vintage horns I have used this has never been a problem. I would guess that this was just a quality control problem for a limited time. I would not keep such a horn, but unload it on ebay. I would want a horn I could depend on and not one I would have to keep putting back together in the middle of a set.