Parisian & Parisian Ambassador differences?

[AhCheung]

I just got a Parisian alto from another SOTWer and was wondering if there are any differences with the Parisian Ambassador which seem to be so common (and cheaply available) on ebay.
The Parisian I got seems well built and sounds nice and in tune (although in need of some regulation/work). It has a very peculiar octave key mechanism.

Could anyone comment about possible differences between Parisian and Parisian Ambassador and the merits of both models?

[bruce bailey]

I sold those new in the 1969-70 time and I didn't think there WAS a difference. Maybe they labeled them differently in different years.

[AhCheung]

Thanks BB.
Someone mentioned on this forum once that the Parisian preceded the Parisian Ambass so I was wondering if there had been a change in materials/workmanship/quality.
If one day I get my hands on a Parisian Ambass alto (in decent playing cond.) I'll update this thread...

[Sax Magic]

I have a friend who has an Olds Parisian Ambassador alto. We played in the same high school band together in the late 1960's. He still has it, as I asked him lately. I'll try to connect with him and give it a play test.

Sax Magic

[stevesklar]

AhChueng - i have one sitting on my shop bench right now - the ambassador. I'll try to post some detailed pics of it then you can compare it to yours.

[bruce bailey]

These things are all over ebay and probably a good one to watch.

[goodsax]

As aucheung now knows, I picked up an Ambassador a couple of months ago and left it at my tech friend's house in AZ to work on remarkably flat left palm key notes, specifically E3 and F3 (palms). Here are a couple of photos of that sax:
http://img.clubphoto.com/jerboa/167776142/400/null/image.jpg
http://img.clubphoto.com/jerboa/167776139/400/null/image.jpg

IMO, these are real sleepers/bargains now. I find the sound and ergos very satisfying except for the intonation issue with this one example, and I hope my tech is able to resolve that soon.

[learningTheAlto]

Hi GoodSax and all other players

Long story.....

OK, so this is my first post and you have a tons of posts, so you’ve been around the block a few times.
I saw your generally positive post about your newly acquired Parisian and figure you’ve tried a lot of horns.

I am new to the forum and new to the world of saxes. I am a middle aged fellow learning the alto.
I’m in need of advice as to what to do about the sax that I have. Buy something else or repair what I have.

I have an Olds Parisian, not a thing of beauty and in need of some new pads and adjustment.
But it does play and I am learning on it. When I inquired about a partial or full repad at two reputable
repair techs, I got the news that the Parisian is not very well thought of, not worth repairing and that there are lots of other student saxes that would be better to learn on. These folks did not have anything to sell, so there was no sales incentive to their opinion. Two saxes that were recommended were the Selmer Bundy II and the Q series Yamaha, both of which cost about $400 in used, but good condition.

For whatever reason, I was resisting their advice and would like to repair the Parisian. There is something about the tone that I really like and somehow think it’s a bit unique and what I am looking for. I think I got confirmation of that last night as I got the chance to try a Bundy II for a few minutes.

I thought the action on the Bundy II was in general lighter, but the distance you had to press the keys was longer than the Parisian. I also thought the Bundy’s sound was honkier, less refined, and the Parisian being more lyrical (if that’s a good description of the sound, I don’t know). Is the sound supposed to be honkier?

Is there something that I am missing? Is it possible that since I am a beginner player that I have not yet discovered the shortcomings of the Parisian that are obvious to the repair techs and advanced players?

There is a repair tech that will do a complete dissasemble, new pads, corks, felts and regulation for $200.
Shipping is $30 each way. Curt at MusicMedic will do a student sax rebuild for about $300.

Would you toss the Parisian and go for one of the many student horns out there or fix the Parisian?

Thanks for reading this saga.

Best Regards

Curt

[goodsax]

Learning: I don't think you can do any better than the Parisian for the $200 you've been quoted by one tech for a rebuild. That said, there are many fine saxes in the $400 & up range that probably would be as satisfying. I just sold an Antigua Winds A520LQ for $375 that was in perfect shape and ideal for an entry level alto. I also know Yamaha YAS-23's are often recommended for starters, and there are YAS-23 stencils (Vitos) on eBay a lot for around $300 - $400, sometimes less. What others will tell you is that anytime you buy a sax on eBay it's best if you assume it will need a trip to your tech for at least fine-tuning/regulation. I've not always found that to be the case, but YMMV.

My only issue with the Parisian Ambassador that's with my tech as I type this reply, is intonation in the left palm (high E & F) keys; high Eb, or Eb3, intonation is not too bad, for some reason. We played with key height while I was visiting him a couple of months ago, but didn't see much improvement. He wasn't finished with it yet, so I left it with him, not being in any hurry.

I too like the tone of the Parisian Ambassador, which is why I asked my tech to do what he could to improve the intonation. If he does, I intend to keep it as a backup alto. If you're not sure what I'm referring to, get a digital tuner - Korg is the most common for around $15 - and check the intonation of your horn from top to bottom. If it proves to be in tune, I'd say keep it.

Another good cyber friend of mine, a long time sax player, also is favorably impressed with Parisian Ambassadors and considers them highly undervalued. His recommendation is why I have one today.

Best of luck in whatever you decide to do. And, welcome to the sax playing community.

Rob

[AhCheung]

Learning... I share your impression about the tone of the Parisian. Again... it seems the Parisian precedes the Parisian Ambassador... maybe there are differences in the quality of the brass or workmanship that would toss in favor of the Parisian.
Anyway I'd say like goodsax that if you can have an overhauled alto for $200 you should go for it -- provided that the instrument is in tune.
I'll have mine play-tested by a pro friend of mine (MarkVI owner) this week-end and you can PM me if I forget to post his comments here. It seems the Parisian shares many features with the Super Artiste model from Pierret which was a professional model in the mid 50s-60s I believe.
Enjoy it!

[learningTheAlto]

Hello goodsax, ahCheung and all the gang

I got your pm ahCheung but thought I would post here.

I believe I have created a bit of confusion. I was too careless in saying that I have an Olds Parisian, what I have is an Olds Parisian Ambassador. I did not realize until reading your post that there might be another instrument that Olds made simply called the Parisian (as oposed to the Parisian Ambassador).

The serial number of my Parisian Ambassador is 046229. I have seen ebayers selling this instrument and quoting the year it was manufactered based on the serial number. I wonder where they get that info to quote?

Anyway, while I am but a rank beginner, I am sticking with this sax. Ive tried a few others, but there is just something about this one that I dont hear in the others.

OK, so heres a beginner question. The mouthpiece I am using is, of all things an original Brilhart #2 mouthpiece. A kind of funny but true story here. The fellow I bought this sax from charged me $100 for the sax and the mouthpiece, $5 for the sax and $95 for the mouthpiece. Thats the way he saw it!

Anyway, I know that the mouthpiece in part contributes to the total tone quality, a tone that I really like. But am I shooting myself in the foot by starting out on this mouthpiece? I know the number has to do withthe facing.
But I dont know how a Brilhart #2 compares with, lets say a Selmer or Yamaha #4, those being mouthpieces I see recommeded a lot for beginnners.

Ive tried this mouthpiece on other saxes and still prefer it on the Parisian.

OK, so thats my story for now. Take care everybody.

Regards

Curt

[AhCheung]

Yes I pm'd to Learning following an interesting test play of my friend's MarkVI (sounding out of this world with custom made brass resos), a Buffet SDA, Dolnet Royal Jazz and the early Parisian (28xxx) -- all French vintage from the 50s... it would have been interesting to have an SML as well.
The tone of the Parisian was inbetween the VI and the SDA (SDA considerably brighter than the VI) but of course the ergos of the SDA were close to the VI while the Pierret are more antiquated (but not as much as the Dolnet). Both the SDA and the Pierret stencil had been delacquered. All three were comparable in terms of evenness of tone, excellent intonation, and power (the Dolnet being big bore had a bigger sound). In our opinion, the huge price difference was not justified (between VI and SDA, and SDA and Pierret stencil)!!! PIerret to VI, eightfold or so, Pierret to SDA, threefold or so....By the way we used Selmer S90-190 and Meyer NY replica (5M) mouthpieces with Rovner/BG ligatures.

Interesting pricing of the sax+mouthpiece, Learning!! Why don't you sell the piece to finance your overhaul, unless this setup works well for you?
YOu should be able to find sax pieces tip opening comparisons on the web, eg on saxophone.org (Jason DuMars website).
By the way the Parisian Ambass and Parisian differences seem subtle (hence my post!).
It is just a theory, but I am starting to wonder whether earlier ones (Parisians vs. Parisian Ambassadors) are "better" for some reason (eg quality of the brass? consistency of production?), like pre-100k Mark VIs are vs. post-100k and early digit SDAs vs. later models... (no doubt that earlier VIs are heavier, for instance)...

[AhCheung]

I had the opportunity to test play a Parisian bari last week and would like to share the differences I noticed vs. my Parisian Ambassador bari.
All of the Parisian's posts are conventional (conical in shape, made me think of a Noblet's) whereas the PA's are typical squarish Pierret's.
Astonishing because my Parisian alto has all of the squarish posts and the one-piece double post for the palm keys and side C & Bb keys (like my PA bari).

The LH cluster on this Parisian was "pre Balanced action", with the Bb spatula coming up to the side, much like the Pierret Super Artiste if memory serves me right. The G# spatula is the nail-file type, too. All the rest, neck, keyguards, RH keycluster, engraving, seemed identical (I didn't schlep my bari with me to compare them back to back).
The Parisian's intonation was not as good as my PA's which is my main horn at the moment but pretty decent in comparison with other baris I have t/played.

Now the question remains: any differences between the Parisian and Parisian Ambass altos?

[Saltosax]

I have a parisian sax that I bought at a yard sale. I am not sure when it was made. the serial number is 24318 If anyone has any information I would very much appreate it.

:space4:

[bluejeans]

Help - I found this Parisian Ambassador alto - which needs quite a bit of key work on it - but I just love the tone quality and really want to keep this horn. Big question - - I can't find a serial # anywhere on the horn! I remember seeing someone's post to the effect that the # was in an unusual place. How unusual can it be?

[goodsax]

I have a Parisian Ambassador alto and, although I was told to look at, or under, one of the keyguards for the serial number, I am unable to find one. Let me know if you find yours as mine could be in the same location.

Rob

[bluejeans]

I looked and looked, no serial number under or around the keyguards. These are fairly old instruments, and I'm just getting started again with alto sax so don't have much info background, but is it possible that a re-lacquer job in the past could have destroyed a serial #?

[goodsax]

I don't think so. Mine is defintely not a re-lacquer and I can't find a serial number, either.
Rob

[xax]

I have a Parisian Ambassador alto and, although I was told to look at, or under, one of the keyguards for the serial number, I am unable to find one. Let me know if you find yours as mine could be in the same location.

Rob
Look on the inside or outside of the back F# key guard for the serial#. If it's a Pierret "Artiste" stencil, you'll probably find it there. 8-)

[bluejeans]

Look on the inside or outside of the back F# key guard for the serial#. If it's a Pierret "Artiste" stencil, you'll probably find it there. 8-)
Eureka! I found the serial # on the back of the keyguard as suggested. It's 36214.
Now, how do I find out when and by which maker this horn was made? I've seen other postings asking about lower numbers, but gathered no info from them.

[goodsax]

Me too. After finding out it is the F# "trill" key guard, I found the s/n, 38122. I couldn't figure out what an F# key guard was. Learn something every day.

[xax]

Eureka! I found the serial # on the back of the keyguard as suggested. It's 36214.
Now, how do I find out when and by which maker this horn was made? I've seen other postings asking about lower numbers, but gathered no info from them.
I'm fairly certain that if the serial number is on the F# keyguard, then it's a Pierret made horn. Go to the Pierret forum for more info. 8-)

[AhCheung]

OK folks, time to answer my own question!

Having now played, owned or test played a few Parisians and Parisian Ambassadors (ATB, they made no sops... I mean Pierret did manufacture sops but not for Olds), here are my observations:

Besides the model (“Parisian” and “The Parisian Ambassador”), the bell engraving, simpler in earlier models (P), is much more circumvoluted in the latter models (PA), but I have seen a P with the same elaborate engraving as a PA (call it a "transitional" model if you wish!).

Mechanically, the main differences are:
- stopper feet on the low C and Eb key rods on the P models, therefore no felts are needed on the keyguards. The low B& Bb levers are thicker on the P and there again, no felts are needed; the PAs have felts on these keyguards like most brands;
- a single metal piece that works as a combined low post for the Bis, hi E and C trill keys on the P, whereas the Bis key has its own lower post on the PA;
- a single forged key arm & stopper foot for the hi E key on the P, whereas the foot is separate and placed lower on the rod on the PA.

Minor differences are: MOP buttons on the earlier models (but I’ve seen them on several PA too) as opposed to whitish plastic ones on the latter models – MOPs being sculpted, either convex or concave while the plastic ones are flat --; a LH thumbrest with a pearl on P and some PA, and black plastic on latter PA; slightly different bow braces; a squarish post/guide for the hi F key and neck octave key on P whereas they are rounded like on most saxes on PA, and a few more.
The brass sheet used for early P I've seen seems thicker than on latter PA, for instance, the bell diameter varies by a few mm, the lyre holder position differs…

We did a blind test with a (pro) friend on 2 altos, a P (28xxx) and a PA (38xxx), both with equally good intonation, the P had been more played in than the PA but had had less repairs than the newer horn.
The P's body had been chemically delacquered, whereas the PA was original lacquer. The listener couldn’t tell them apart and to the player they felt pretty much the same in terms of power and action (although one had steel springs and the other piano type springs).
Admittedly, we got two good numbers...

[goodsax]

I didn't check my most recent PA tenor.

[AhCheung]

Ask the buyer what the S/N is.
From your pics in your FS thread it has several characteristics of an earlier (or "transitional") horn....

[cfile]

I've posted this before, so if you've searched you know this. My folks bought me a new parisian ambassador in 1963 and the serial number was 38,9xx. At that time the serial number was on the back of the horn in the normal place. I think earlier horns had the serial number on a guard or something and later horns added a "0" in front of the serial number. My horn played great and I never had any of the problems folks mention, such as bad solder joints or bent keys. Mine had mother of pearl, not plastic. I played it for many years before giving it to my daughter in the early 90's to play in the school band on old pads. Had it repadded when she entered highschool about 94 and it's playing great today. I do find the keywork to be a little sloppy, but it never affected the playability. Intonation was great, tone was very smooth and rather fat but not honky, selmerish I suppose. Much less resistance than the Bundy my son had or an old Dorfler Jerka that I currently have. If I thought the older Pierriets played as well and had better keywork, I'd go out and buy me one.

[cfile]

One more thing I thought of after hitting submit. The key heights on my horn were a little high and a tech told me that these horns require that. This wasn't much of an issue on my alto, but I later bought a used tenor and didn't like this horn nearly as much. Seems the keys felt even sloppier on the bigger horn and the key heights were a little much. I'm now playing a Conn 10m and the sound is bigger, plus the keys are tight.

[soybean]

OK folks, time to answer my own question!AhCheung, thanks for doing this valuable research. You point out the differences in keywork between the two models, but do you prefer either type?

Here is some information about the Olds Parisian from the Doctor Sax site.

Quote from Doctor Sax:
This sax was manufactured by Pierret after their flagship model "Competition" of the early 1950s. As far as one can tell, only the keyguard feet differ from the Competition besides the (improved!) left hand pinkie cluster.

This solidly built model, with very good intonation and power throughout, attracted the attention of Santy Runyon who had Pierret stencil a few hundred altos and tenors with his name. The major differences between the Santy Runyon horn and the Parisian lie only in the LH pinkie plateau and the fact the bell keys are on the opposite side of the horn. Until recently, these horns have been mistaken -- probably due to their solidity and tone qualities -- with SMLs, another famous French manufacturer who stenciled for several brands including King.

[This particular] Parisian… appears to belong to an early lot marketed by Olds, whereas its sequel, the Parisian Ambassador was somewhat simplified, (e.g. lighter gauge brass was used for the body, posts instead of strong brackets in places, plastic buttons instead of mother of pearl) with the exception of the engraving which became more elaborate. Compared to the later 'Ambassador' horns, this earlier 'Parisian' is a sturdier, professional model.