Heavy versus Light Weight [Archive]

Balladeer

06-05-2006, 01:37 PM

I play a Guardala DG501BN tenor. The horn seems quite heavy and, even with the Oleg neckstrap, is tiring to hold. I have held the belief that the amount of metal in the instrument has a positive effect on the sound. Recently, I played a friend's Buescher 400 TH&C. The Buescher played like butter, sounded great, and felt great. In addition, the Buescher felt as light as a feather compared to my Guardala.

What are your opinions and experiences with heavy versus light horns?

ssleb

06-05-2006, 01:42 PM

ssleb

06-05-2006, 01:43 PM

I don't have much experience with this, but I thought that the lighter horns sound better as they resonate more, and so, can give a bigger, more projected sound.

Balladeer

06-05-2006, 02:14 PM

ssleb -
When a horn is relacquered the buffing removes a tiny layer of metal. Most players try to avoid buying a relacquered horn because the tone may be too bright due to the loss of metal.

DukeCity

06-05-2006, 02:43 PM

I don't have much experience with this, but I thought that the lighter horns sound better as they resonate more, and so, can give a bigger, more projected sound.

There's big debate in the trumpet world regarding heavy vs. light. The concept behind the heavy Monette horns (like Wynton Marsalis plays) is this: A lightweight horn vibrates more, and so it sounds more lively around where the player is standing. The heavier horn vibrates less, and thus projects the sound out into the hall. Some players get that, and love the heavier horns; some players just want the sound around them to be full, so they go for lighter horns.

As for saxophones, my own belief is that other factors (mouthpiece/reed set-up, player's air/technique) make a bigger difference than horn weight or the finish.

Canadiain

06-05-2006, 05:47 PM

Surely there are so many different variables at play in the acoustic design of a sax that its impossible to pin down any one set of sonic characteristic to the weight of the horn alone.

There are just good horns, bad horns and OK horns, regardless of weight. Heck, most of them seems to vary from horn to horn even within the same model made by the same company.

Canadiain

06-05-2006, 05:50 PM

ssleb -
When a horn is relacquered the buffing removes a tiny layer of metal. Most players try to avoid buying a relacquered horn because the tone may be too bright due to the loss of metal.
Do they not play them first to see what they sound like and then decide based on that rather than arbitrarily decide that a relaq sounds bright? I would think any minimal change caused by the loss of a tiny fraction of the wall thickness would be easy to tune out with the right mouthpiece:?

Balladeer

06-05-2006, 06:54 PM

Canadiain - When comparing two used horns of the same brand/model the thought is that the one that has been relacquered will not be as deep and rich-sounding as the one that is in the original finish. Why are we often advised to avoid a relacquered horn when shopping for a used sax?

My father was trained at the Martin factory in Elkhardt, Indianna, after WWII. Except for the Mark VI, which was not available until the mid-1950's, he told me that the best horns were the ones made up to WWII because once the U.S. entered the war the metal composition of the new instruments changed.

Also, in recent conversations with Randy at Tenor Madness and Curt at Music Medic, both techs mentioned the aging of vintage horns having a desirable affect on the tone and playability. They contrasted this to the 'stiff' feel of many new horns.

I have not read much about this. As we SOTWers are obsessed with tone, I thought I'd pose the question here.

J.Max

06-05-2006, 07:14 PM

I like heavy horns, personally. The tone always seems darker, and I never feel like I'm going to break it.

Canadiain

06-05-2006, 07:24 PM

Or alternatively the original laq might be a friday afternoon dodgy dog of a horn, put into storage as not worth playing 50 years ago, and the relaq a sweet sounding horn that was someones pride and joy in another time when there was not this unhealthy obsession with the "originalness" of any given horn, and they just wanted to make it look pretty again?

Generalisations just dont work on vintage horns, there are too many variables in each horn. Too many people have too many preconceptions, and there is too much mythology and mystique that goes along with them to trust anything other than your own ears.

I am unconvinced that quality control techniques and machine tollerances back then were far enough advanced for all horns made in a certain period to all be fantastic, but maybe the thing with vintage horns is that if its survived in use this long its because it was one of the good ones in the first place and people persisted with them, and its been debugged by subsequent users over the years.

There is no scientific basis to think brass ages in any way without heat treatment (unlike say aluminum alloys that have a distinct precipitation aging mechanism that changes the material properties over time). If the metal composition changed significantly, how is the MkVI explained? If its design, how come none of the other makers adapted to this "different" brass?

If you play a horn and like the sound, really that all you need to know.

hornimus

06-05-2006, 07:52 PM

Keep in mind that the heaviness of your horn may to a large extent depend on the weight of the keywork. Comparisons with old/new horns are not clean-cut along weight lines. The sheet brass used for the body tubing of that Guardala may in fact be a thinner gauge or have less tensile rigidity (er, better techno word for this, I'm sure) than the stuff the Buescher was made of. Not only that, but makers like Buescher probably relied on whatever gauge of sheet brass stock they had in inventory at any given time, as long as it was within their accepted range of tolerances. There ARE measurable differences in the weight of body tubing from different examples of the SAME make/model.

heath

06-05-2006, 08:00 PM

It's the vibrating air colume inside the horn that gives you a saxes overall playing charateristics.

The idea that material, thickness, plating and other things have much affect have been shown to pale comparison to the affect that the overall shape and size of the bore has on a great playing instrument.

Look at the effects of the light weight hard rubber mouthpiece and one made of heavy metal. If the mouthpieces are made exactly the same then its next to impossible for the listener to tell the difference between the two.

Your DG tenor is of heavy duty german contruction and a great horn by all standards, I wouldn't however say their extremely heavy as I've played one and I thought it was middle of the road as far as weight.

Also when you're practicing use a Neotech sax strap, it has neoprene and elastic that will take the load off. When your performing you can use the Oleg to keep your horn from shifting during performance, something the Neotech will do, but you can adjust the strap when your practicing. The Neotech saved my neck and allowed me to shed for hours without pain. And don't get caught up in fashion, nothing erks me more than someone using a strap because it's a fashion statment. You can get them with metal hooks if you scared of the plastic hook breaking, I've personally never broken a plastic neotech hook in ten years and mine holds up some expensive tenors.

J.Max

06-05-2006, 08:20 PM

Or, if you really have back/neck problems, use a BG Harness. I have never liked the Neotech straps because they bob around too much when I'm playing...the BG harness works great though.

Mactenor

06-05-2006, 09:27 PM

If you want to feel heavy, pick up an early Conn 10M and feel the weight on your neck. These horns were built like Tanks, but are extremly versatile, lush, soft tone and a Monster when you push it. To me, the old Conns are the best of the vintage horns.
Best Regards Mactenor

JfW

06-06-2006, 12:16 AM

As far as I can think of, the loss of base metal can maybe have an effect on tone if the walls become thin enough to allow a loss of accoustic energy from the standing wave inside the horn. Truthfully, since high (energy) frequencies attenuate and escape more readily, such energy loss would probably effect the higher overtones first, making such a horn sound darker.

I think.

heath

06-06-2006, 01:32 AM

J.Max what are you doing that caused the neotech to bob around. Truthfully I use my ligaphone strap when I'm performing, but the neotech won't bounce around if your not bouncing around. I mean I wouldn't wear a neotech for marching band, but I'd never play in a marching band anyway.

The only thing I've noticed with the neotech is that the horn will settle over time and hang lower, which means you have to raise the strap up, but that takes only a couple of seconds out of my practice time. The harness while great at relieving neck problems can be cumbersome and not allow the range of motion that a regular strap has. I've found a harness holds the tenor too close to my body and puts too much weight on my right hand thumb.

58tenor

06-06-2006, 03:49 AM

The above post about brass is correct. Certain aerospace aluminum alloys do change properties with aging. It's a bit misleading though,as the aging process is pretty fast,usually measured in hours after being heat treated. After that the only change comes from load cycles (fatigue) or corrosion. Brass is a pretty low tech alloy of around 75% copper and the rest is mostly zinc.

Brass' metalurgical properties do not change sigmificantly over time excepting corrosion if exposed to an oxidizing environment. There is insufficient mechanical stress from vibration and fingering to cause metal fatigue (hopefully).Drummers cause metal fatige in cymbals all the time. Do not hit your sax repeatedly with a stick.In extreme cases a phenomenon called de-zincification can occur which is exactly what it sounds like. The alloy is destroyed. It is an electrolytic process which sometimes happens to brass plumbing fixtures. Your horn will probably be OK.

NOW, let's get scientific here. Heavy horn,light horn. One would think that any newer horn would be heavier because of the greater amount of keywork vs the vintage "tanks". I bet that the heaviest tenor is not more than a few ounces more than the lightest. It is not possible to discern such small differences accurately by hand on something as large as a tenor sax.

So if one of you guys with a buncha horns would use a SCALE:shock: and produce some accurate weights we could have fun with this. A fish scale would work perfectly and be safe for the horn. As far as mass influencing tone; there has been much research which debunks this. It really is only a small factor, way down the list from MP, reed, player. Ever play a gig up in the mountains at 8000 ft? or in really cold outside air? See what happens to the tone.

The manufacturers would have us beleive that silver horns are brighter, special alloys do this, black nickel does that, ad nauseum. A saxophone or trumpet for that matter can be made from almost any material. I wish for a carbon fiber sax with titanium keywork. We'll call it the raptor.

Canadiain

06-06-2006, 04:27 AM

In extreme cases a phenomenon called de-zincification can occur which is exactly what it sounds like. The alloy is destroyed. It is an electrolytic process
Technically that would be another (different)form of corrosion.:) and IIRC its more of an issue with phase separation in castings.
Not sure how "low tech" brass is still, there is a lot of control over the minor elemental make up now, for environmental reasons as much as anything. Its certainly a well understood alloy though metallurgically speaking, doesnt hold much mystery.<takes technical hat off>

I wish for a carbon fiber sax with titanium keywork. We'll call it the raptor.
Me too! after I win the lottery and get my Ferrari:)

ssleb

06-06-2006, 10:18 AM

It would look kick *** wouldn't it...not sure about the sound though... :p

Balladeer

06-06-2006, 01:16 PM

NOW, let's get scientific here. Heavy horn,light horn. One would think that any newer horn would be heavier because of the greater amount of keywork vs the vintage "tanks". I bet that the heaviest tenor is not more than a few ounces more than the lightest. It is not possible to discern such small differences accurately by hand on something as large as a tenor sax.
I'll bet five bucks that the difference in weight between tenors can be much more than a few ounces. When I can, I will weigh my Guardala. I'd like to find a Cannonball to weigh, also, as they are rather heavy. I would compare those weights to the weight of a Pan American (Conn) or the 1950's Buescher 400 TH&C. I'm betting that the difference will be at least 1/2 pound.

betelsax

06-06-2006, 01:29 PM

If you can get your hands on a 20s Martin, it would be interesting to see how it compares. Martins have a reputation for being some of the heaviest saxes out there.

Nefertiti

06-06-2006, 01:31 PM

If material doesn't matter then a sax made of brass should sound the same as a sax made of marshmallow? Hmmmmmmmmm?

ssleb

06-06-2006, 01:35 PM

If material doesn't matter then a sax made of brass should sound the same as a sax made of marshmallow? Hmmmmmmmmm?

I'd bet it'd sound soft and sweet. :D

Canadiain

06-06-2006, 01:49 PM

If material doesn't matter then a sax made of brass should sound the same as a sax made of marshmallow? Hmmmmmmmmm?
Erm...no one said material didnt matter. Thickness perhaps doesnt matter (and thats basically what weight is in this case given any two similar brasses are not going to significantly differ in density)

Brass has particular values for Youngs modulus (Stiffness) and tensile strength that will affect its response to the various forces that the standing wave puts upon it, and the way those waves interact to make the unique interesting noise it makes. With a composite like CF in theory you can tailor the response to some extent, but make the whole thing much lighter.

Pinnman

06-06-2006, 04:51 PM

In terms of weight, a Dolnet alto is about a pound heavier than a 1920s Martin which is about 4 ounces heavier than a TrueTone.

Jolle

06-06-2006, 05:05 PM

I've found a harness holds the tenor too close to my body and puts too much weight on my right hand thumb.
Absolutely, I know the drill. It's possible to adjust to this way of playing, but the tenor will always be too close to be comfortable. I use a harness though, simply because I value a painless neck more. I have a bad neck, so...

On topic : my horn weighs a lot : heavy keywork, silver plating. It's not only the thickness of the brass that determines how much your horn weighs...

greetzz

J.Max

06-06-2006, 10:21 PM

Ari

06-06-2006, 10:44 PM

There is a list of factors that affect a horns sound.

High up on the list are things that are closest to the mouthpiece and further down are things that are closer to the bell.
Very high up on the list are the general shape and volume of the airspace that contains the standing wave of sound. High up are the positions and size of escape openings (tone holes). And very low down is the rigidity of the wall material.
The rigidity of the wall material is influenced by factors such as elasticity, thickness etc..

So while theoretically weight does affect sound its basically insignificant compared to the overwhelming affect of other factors - Its a drop in a bucket.

Neotech

06-08-2006, 05:18 PM

... I have never liked the Neotech straps because they bob around too much when I'm playing...the BG harness works great though.

I hear this comment a lot, and I feel it is important to note that Neotech manufactures many different straps with varying degrees of stretch.

Our most popular strap, the Soft Sax® Strap has the most stretch with the neoprene and elastic configuration.

The Classic Strap™ is a different configuration with a patented Internal Control Stretch System, and while it still has stretch, it is less than the Soft Sax®.

The Wick-It Strap™ has a pad made of high-tech "memory foam" which does not stretch at all.

Just as an auto manufacturer makes different vehicles for different uses, we make different straps for different uses. To say that Neotech straps have too much stretch does not take into account the full line of products we make. We try to have something for everyone!

J.Max

06-08-2006, 06:54 PM

I hear this comment a lot, and I feel it is important to note that Neotech manufactures many different straps with varying degrees of stretch.

Our most popular strap, the Soft Sax® Strap has the most stretch with the neoprene and elastic configuration.

The Classic Strap™ is a different configuration with a patented Internal Control Stretch System, and while it still has stretch, it is less than the Soft Sax®.

The Wick-It Strap™ has a pad made of high-tech "memory foam" which does not stretch at all.

Just as an auto manufacturer makes different vehicles for different uses, we make different straps for different uses. To say that Neotech straps have too much stretch does not take into account the full line of products we make. We try to have something for everyone!

Ooohhhh...Memory foam....

heath

06-08-2006, 07:48 PM

I'm aware of the full product line of Neotech, but the soft sax strap is the best for practicing long hours that I've found. I find a strap that gives a little relieves some of the constant pull and we've all read stories of guys on this forum that have screwed up their necks using standard straps.

You can have all the cushion in the world(memory foam), but if the strap doesn't give a little it's going to be your neck that eventually gives.

Neotech

06-08-2006, 07:53 PM

...You can have all the cushion in the world(memory foam), but if the strap doesn't give a little it's going to be your neck that eventually gives.

Yep. This is one reason why we make the different versions. Everbody wants something a little different. I've heard (read) comments from some that you can't get good tone if there's any stretch in a strap! ....to each his own!

danarsenault

06-08-2006, 08:13 PM

The Matit folks tried to make and market a carbon fiber flute with magnetic springs. They tried for a reasonable price. And tried. And failed. http://www.matitflutes.com/index.html. There doesn't seem to be a purchase path currently on their web site, unless I missed it. Too bad.

I think the next innovation in sax bodies will be a return to plastic. Good injection molding companies could do it justice. Now, who wants to invest in the tooling? To make it worth it, the molds would have to work for instruments produced for both pro and student markets.

I think we're pretty much stuck with brass.

Canadiain

06-08-2006, 08:31 PM

Interesting...it looks like the flutes are available in 3 different types of keywork from the product page:

There are three models of MATIT professional flutes available. The body is made of carbon fibre and the keywork of titanium, silver or silver plated brass. Flutes are available with open or closed keyholes and with C or B foot.

German catalogue listed one at 9,150 euro, $US ~12000!
http://www.pslc.ws/macrog/kidsmac/polycons/images/fibrflut.jpg

Injection moulding a sax could work, with say a short fiber filled material. Hard to keep wall thicknesses down though, and as you say tooling costs would be ugly, which is what killed off CF tennis rackets for example. I wonder though what the labour cost to material cost ratio is for a cheap chinese sax...perhaps moulded bodies are the next step to an even cheaper truly disposable instrument? But given the resistance to cheap chinese brass saxes I can only imagine the ridicule a cheap plastic sax would have to overcome, so rather like Grafton it would need a big name or two onboard for it to be taken seriously.

Would there be a problem using the same basic tube for pro and student keywork....other than getting a pro to put down their Mark VI or Super20 in the first place? As it seems that half the worlds new saxes are made in a cottage industry way in Tiawan, it seems unlikely that anyone will be trying this any time soon:(

58tenor

06-10-2006, 01:49 AM

Mr. Arsenault that is a most interesting flute link. I had no idea anyone made a CF model. Sure wish they would do a sax. However we are drifting here. Come on someone with a lot of horns- weigh them! Let's see some real numbers. This is very interesting albeit of no practical merit.

JfW

06-10-2006, 05:30 AM

If material doesn't matter then a sax made of brass should sound the same as a sax made of marshmallow? Hmmmmmmmmm?

maybe, if marshmallow wasn't such a sound dampening material. Even with a perfectly sealing marshmallow horn (with gumdrop pearl touches even), who knows? you may not be able to play all the notes from the energy loss of the standing wave by the dampening effect of the walls of the instrument.