Should I bother with a new mouthpiece?

[Jazz Ambassador]

I'm a newbie; I've been playing for a little over 3 months and, while I have a decent music teacher, he's not much good at giving me equipment advice (long story short: I'm in the Philippines, and Filipinos are incredibly deferential, especially to older white guys who represent the US government. So, basically, he won't give me a direct opinion on anything; as this is a common cultural trait here, I doubt a different teacher would be an improvement). Anyway, absent my teacher's input but thanks to SOTW (in this thread) (http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=258), I've only just figured out that I could be playing with a softer reed than I have been, and now I'm finally getting a tone I like.

I'm playing on my Kessler Custom Tenor and the mouthpiece it shipped with -- the Kessler Custom 50OL7, modeled on the Otto Link 7 -- using a Vandoren 1.5 reed (I was using a 2.5, which was killing me). My goal is to play jazz and swing, so this is a good set-up for where I want to be eventually. My question is, is it a good set-up to start on, because I want to play on it eventually? Or should I start on a smaller mouthpiece with a stiffer reed, to build embouchure and tone consistancy more effectively?

I'm impressed by the knowledge and thoughtfulness on this board; thanks in advance for any advice you'd care to offer.

John

[Dave Dolson]

John: Kessler's horns and mouthpieces are really competitive, in my experience. I have the same set-up you have on tenor (not my best saxophone, though - I'm mainly a soprano/alto guy), except that I use #2 reeds on that piece. It does everything I want it to do on my Kessler tenor.

If that Kessler mouthpiece is working for you, I'd experiment more with reeds than with mouthpieces, at least at this stage of your development. To be specific to your question, I see no reason for you to switch mouthpieces and increase reed-strength - you can strengthen your chops with what you have now just by constantly playing. DAVE

[Jazz Ambassador]

Dave: thanks for the input! I don't really have anything to compare the current mouthpiece to, since it's the only one I've ever played on. It may be just fine for me. My big problem with it right now though is tone consistancy. My notes are pretty "wobbly." But maybe going up to a #2 (perhaps with a Rico instead of a Vandoren) would help that.

[jbnez]

At this stage you would be better served with a different mouthpiece, one that would allow you to learn to produce a quality sound and control it with ease. I teach saxophone at a couple of universities and run into this issue frequently with my students. The mouthpiece is a means to an end, your sound comes from within. My students progress much quicker and enjoy playing more after I change their set-up. What you will learn about embouchure and support from playing the more moderate mouthpiece will make the transition to a jazz mouthpiece much easier later on.

I would recommend for tenor, a Vandoren V5, T20, with Vandoren #3 reeds. Enjoy!

[ssleb]

I think a 1.5 reed is too soft for anyone's good, unless you like to solo in the lower octave in subtones. I recommend practicing with a 2 and eventually going up to at least a 2.5.

[JL]

So, basically, he won't give me a direct opinion on anything; as this is a common cultural trait here,.....John

Well, you won't have that problem on SOTW! LOL..

I think the real issue is you've only been playing for 3 months. It's really going to take you some more time to develop your embouchure. At this stage you could just stick with what you're using now and gradually work up to at least a #2 reed on that mpc. Or you could take jnez's advice and get a more "middle of the road" mpc with a moderate tip opening, use a #2 or 2 1/2 reed and give yourself a year or so playing long tones, etc, until your embouchure gets strong enough to play with a consistent tone. Then start on a mpc search. But my guess is the problems you're encountering now have more to do with an undeveloped embouchure than with any equipment issues.

[Canadiain]

"GAS" is a very common side effect of learning to play the sax, so I would say there is always a good reason to acquire more mouthpieces:)

I think you know my opinion allready, although your link linked to the forum, not the thread (http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=40012)

To work on that pitch stability and build up those chops I think its at least worth the small investment in a smaller tip mouthpiece, and you can still play the pseudolink when you want to cut loose, there is no law says one sax one mouthpiece!

Interesting about the psychology of the teaching there.

Either way the solution is practice practice practice...as usual! Good Luck

I guess it really depends how much the pitch stability is an issue. The quickest solution to that is probably to go for a more "medium" tip opening, with perhaps a harder reed that will work better with it. The trade off to that is you might have more problems at the bottom of the instument, and you wont be able to bend notes in a jazzy way as much...but then that ability to bend notes is the reason for the pitch instability...takes work and control to play a larger tip opening in tune, but that will come in time unless you have a "wooden ear"

Iain

[Dave Dolson]

Canadian: I agree . . . John posted a question and then received totally conflicting advice, one from a so-called saxophone teacher who has never heard John play. How ANYONE can advise someone right off the bat that he needs a new mouthpiece is beyond me. John implies he is doing okay with his set-up, but now he's advised to change mouthpieces. Amazing.

To make it worse, someone else says he should move up in reed strength. Why? I have some 1 1/2 reeds I like on alto and soprano and have no trouble being heard, playing in tune, or playing with a good tone. Playing harder reeds for the sake of bragging rights is indefensible. DAVE

[Hurling Frootmig]

There's probably nothing wrong with your present mouthpiece. Getting a setup sorted out is always a great first step. If the equipment is good work on practicing and developing your own sound.

Personally, I would wait a little longer or keep an eye out for a good deal on something like a hard rubber link. The only issue is that they are quite variable. Try as many as you can and when you find a good one buy it.

[jbnez]

Dave,

This is the "so-called" saxophone teacher replying to your post.

There are certain issues all new saxophone students need to address when beginning a new instrument. The correct combination of mouthpiece and reed can make the learning process much easier and prevent some very bad habits. This comes from experience, thousands of hours is a studio working with students of all levels.

Jazzambassador asked for some advice and I offered my opinion based on my experience.

By the way, when I go to work I'm armed with a saxophone! You?

[Carl H.]

By the way, when I go to work I'm armed with a saxophone! You?

Lose the attitude fast, and you asked the WRONG guy about being armed at work!:shock:

[Dave Dolson]

Jbnez: I'm retired now from my day-job, but when I work with my saxophone I always have two pistols. In fact, I have those with me, working or not.

I'll stick by my earlier comment. I will agree that a good mouthpiece and reed combo will assist a beginning player (heck, ANY player) develop faster and play better, but the poster's initial question implied his current set-up was working for him. I have that same set-up and it works good for me, too. Why tell him to change everything when you don't know what progress, if any, he's made?

Are you saying that if I took a class (or lesson) from you, the first thing you would do would be to change my set-up? Here's how it might go . . .

Jbnez: "What mouthpiece and reed are you using?"

Dolson: "A Super Session J with a shaved Vandoren Java 2 reed on soprano. A Meyer 6S-Medium Chamber with a shaved Vandoren Java 2 reed on alto. A Kessler Custom OL7 with a shaved vandoren Java 2 reed on tenor and C-Melody."

Jbnez: "That's not any good. Change everything."

And now that I have your attention . . . what is a "jazz" mouthpiece? A mouthpiece is a mouthpiece is a mouthpiece . . . if it works for the player and the player plays jazz, is THAT a jazz mouthpiece? DAVE

[jbnez]

No Dave, that's not what I would say, you just made a totally incorrect assumption about me.

How long have you been playing? Jazzambassador mentions he's been playing 3 months. Players of that level have different needs than people that have been playing years if not decades, like I'm sure we both have. A mouthpiece is a means to an end, the greatest mouthpiece in the world is useless without the proper approach to embouchure and the use of air.

No, I am not familiar with the mouthpiece he mentioned, I went strictly on the comparison to the Link 7. I'm sure it's a great piece. I have just found through many years of experience that a middle of the road setup is much easier for learning good fundamentals.

[Canadiain]

And now that I have your attention . . . what is a "jazz" mouthpiece?
Isnt that an expensive metal piece that Selmer makes? ;) :toothy7:

Everyone needs to take a deep breath here...its a forum FFS, and opinions here are like assholes..everyone has one that works for them. Seriously, any advice offered here is by definition not going to be based on spending time with the guy, that how the internet works as I understand it...its a "virtual" thing.

[Hurling Frootmig]

The OL7 is made by the same company that makes the Otto Links - J.J. Babbitt. The chamber on them is slightly smaller than the Otto Link with a bit more of a rollover baffle. I actually prefer the baffle profile on this blank than that of the modern rubber links.

[jbnez]

And now that I have your attention . . . what is a "jazz" mouthpiece? A mouthpiece is a mouthpiece is a mouthpiece . . . if it works for the player and the player plays jazz, is THAT a jazz mouthpiece? DAVE[/QUOTE]


I couldn't agree more.

[Jazz Ambassador]

Well, I hadn't expected this thread to come back from the dead, let alone start an argument! :shock:

Dave, I appreciate your encouraging me to stick with my current set-up, because that's the cheapest answer. :D I guess my latest thought is this:

I know nothing can take the place of practice, practice, practice, and right now I practice as much as I can. Unfortunately, that's less than I would like; I work long hours and frequently have to attend evening events (eating and drinking for my country ;) ), so I'm lucky if I get in 10 hours a week. So I'm wondering if, given those time constraints, I might find it more efficient to try an "easier" set-up, because it would help me build my embouchure more quickly. I don't know. Whaddaya think?

[fballatore]

JA -

I think you've pretty much figured out your answers. Obviously the Kessler mouthpiece with the 2.5 reeds wasn't working for you. There are usually 2 solutions to this problem - use a less open mouthpiece with the same reeds, or use the same mouthpiece with softer reeds. You've gone with the latter, and you say that's working for you. IMO, you could have gone the other way with basically the same results. The answer to the main part of your question:

Or should I start on a smaller mouthpiece with a stiffer reed, to build embouchure and tone consistancy more effectively?

is practice, practice, practice. That will work with either mouthpiece/reed combination. If anything, there is a danger to trying to work with a reed that is too stiff for you, and that is developing the bad habit of biting down.

Sounds like you're on the right track. Good luck.

Frank

[bonzo]

Hi Jazz Ambassador,

I've been playing a little longer than you but until recently have been in the same dilemma.

I bought a British branded tenor with stock plastic mouthpiece, which didn't suit me. The horn's fine but the mouthpiece was too closed (about .70) and squeeked like crazy. My teacher at the time insisted I use a #1.5 reed, which again caused me problems. I have a fairly strong embouchure naturally and soon realised that going to a #2 reed improved the situation. However, I changed the piece for a HR Link #7, which is okay but a bit stuffy.

Then by chance I read a recommendation on the Rico Graftonite pieces
(about $10-15?). I didn't want to keep paying large sums so tried the A5 (medium opening, largest bore size). This piece, with whatever reed suits (I use Vandoren V16 #2 and Marca 2 & 2.5s), will I am sure give you the confidence and chance to develop as it has me.

Initial set-up does cause 'headaches' and a bit of angst, so get settled and enjoy your playing at whatever level you aspire to.

Good luck!!

[Dave Dolson]

John: No one can pick a mouthpiece for you. All we can do is make recommendations based upon what we have experienced, plus echoing what others have reported about their mouthpiece experiences (although other's experiences are only mildly interesting because of the individual nature of mouthpieces). That is why I recommended that you stick with the Kessler mouthpiece, since you initially reported getting along with it okay.

But on the other hand, there is absolutely nothing wrong with trying other mouthpieces. I think part of the problem in this thread is that others didn't understand the nature of Kessler's mouthpieces. They are far from the inexpensive, stock pieces that usually accompany a new saxophone, especially the inexpensive models from Taiwan, such as Kessler's Custom line.

I have three Kessler pieces (two alto and one tenor) and while the alto pieces are not my favorites, they play good for me (better than any stock piece I've received with a new saxophone) and others have reported success with them.

The KC tenor piece was a surprise for me when I bought the KC tenor. I'd tried other tenor pieces in the past and this one really worked for me. So, while I preach that everyone reacts differently to any one mouthpiece, I wasn't surprised to read that you were doing okay with it. It is light-years better than most stock pieces.

The quality of any one reed you use is also at issue. The best saxophone in the world can sound bad when the player's reed is not right for the mouthpiece and the player's embouchure. Experienced players usually know how to prepare (break in) reeds and adjust them to be better players. Maybe your uncertainties are caused by not knowing how to deal with reeds - believe me, a good reed can make a HUGE difference in your playing ability and endurance. DAVE

I encourage you to experiment with other mouthpieces, if you are so inclined and can afford the GAS prices. If a more experienced player or your teacher is available to assist in mouthpiece testing, that would be even better. DAVE

[Pinnman]

The advice I received from a number of sources when I started was to use a mpc with a medium tip opening. I think that advice was sound and, on that basis, hold the view that a 7 is too open for a relative beginner.

Jazz Ambassador appeasr to be looking for some ideas, so here are mine, which tie in with some other posts to some extent.

Get in touch with a music shop which will send out three or four mpc's to try. Woodwind and Brasswind is one option. Ask for mpc's with medium openings; as for makes, well Otto LInk, Selmer, Vandoren, Yanagisawa, Morgan Vintage and Rousseau are all worth a try (my preference being for the last three). Try each one out with reeds of 1.5 to 3 strength (although I think 2 is probably best at this stage).

If any of these are a real improvement, go for it. If not, stay as you are. I do think, though, that at this stage of development at least, it is best to go for ease of playing rather than tone or embouchure development; these will come in good time.

[Jazz Ambassador]

I'm impressed by the knowledge and thoughtfulness on this board

Well, I stand by what I said. :D You guys are great, and very helpful. Lots to think about -- which is just what I wanted. Thanks! :thumbrig:

[jacobeid]

I too would suggest staying with your current set up. I've never played the kessler piece but I've heard good things (remember, the keyword is heard). Also they are based on great pieces and aren't too open. If it's working for you then why change? The only reason I'd recommend changing was if it was causing a problem or something you didn't like.