Post-Selmer Buescher 400 - a student model?

[buescherbabe]

I have been playing this alto since I was a kid. I love the sound (has a nice "phat" sound, according to SteveS), I love the consistency of its action, and would never part with it. However, a couple of people have asked if it's a student model. It doesn't really matter to me, but I'm still curious in any case. My mother said they paid about $500-600 for it in the late 1960s (for my older sister to play) - sounds kinda expensive for a student model, doesn't it? :?: Anyway, the horn is gold (brass?) and the keys are silver (nickel?), which is why people ask me that. Any ideas?

[Hurling Frootmig]

If it has back mounted bell keys then we're not talking student model. The 400 slowly declined after the buyout until it didn't have snap in pads or norton springs. Many folks who have these horns still mention that they have a big sound though.

What is the serial number?

[buescherbabe]

The bell keys are indeed on the back, so that the flowery engraving stuff is on the outside (right-hand side). The serial number I BELIEVE starts with 436..., but I'd have to double check.

[buescherbabe]

No.. Oooops. The serial number is 498XXX. :roll:

[Hurling Frootmig]

Does your horn look like this photo:

http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/buescher/400_series/series2/tenor/376xxx/i-1_B_L.jpg

This horn has back mounted bell keys. I haven't seen anything with a serial number as high as yours with them.

[buescherbabe]

Yes, it looks like that horn, except mine has flowery engraving on the bell. I can't tell what's on the bell in the picture you attached. But my horn definitely has the back-mounted bell keys. I will see if I can attach a photo of it.....? Or I can e-mail it to you....?

[buescherbabe]

Actually, I found an identical one on Gayle's website. Mine looks like this one, only a little more worn:

http://www.vintagesax.com/images/bsch556a400.jpg

[buescherbabe]

I asked Gayle at Vintage Sax. Her two cents:

"This is better than a typical student horn. A later 400 was more of a stepup or intermediate horn. By today's standards, its much much better than a student level horn."

[Gregg W. Jackson]

To add another two cents to Gayle's: the Buescher 400 was originally designed as a top end professional horn. Over the years Buescher changed the materials and cosmetics, but the 400 still had most of its original qualities when Buescher sold the company to Selmer.

Compared to your 400, most of today's student horns are designed from the start to be student horns. They are intended to be economical to build and sturdy enought to stand the rigors of school band rooms. They are not built to satisfy a professional's sense of sound -- the Buescher 400 originally was.

[buescherbabe]

Hey, SteveS just made me realize the difference between back-mounted and those mounted on the "pants side." :roll: I guess to be technically correct, my bell keys are pants-side mounted, not back-mounted like the ones on the tenor on Hurling's previous post. I learn something new every day!

Thanks for all the info guys!!

[JL]

I think Hurling was referring to "back mounted bell keys" that are mounted on BACK side of the bell, directly facing toward the player (as with the TH&C model). The later 400s have keys mounted on the left SIDE of the bell, from the player's perspective (as with the horn on Gayle's website).

[Hurling Frootmig]

You generally see the last of the post TH&C horns with the back mounted (facing the player) keys at about 405k. As a previous person mentioned, the 400's with the configuration on the side is more of an intermediate model but by all accounts are still very good horns. The horn in question appears to be a second generation Selmer made 400.

[Gregg W. Jackson]

I've seen a side bell key 400 with a serial number of 409xxx. (I've been keeping a database from eBay and other sources.)

[Hurling Frootmig]

Glad to see I'm not the only one on the lookout.

[Roger Aldridge]

I have a related question that I hope someone can answer.....

I've been looking into the possibility of finding an early 60's (hopefully pre-63) Aristocrat as a back up horn. I know that these saxes would not of a comparable quality as a 400 of this time period or the earlier Aristocrats. I've noticed on ebay that the prices for 400s -- even post-63 serial numbers -- quickly go beyond what I'd like to invest in a back up horn. Thus, I'm thinking about an Aristocrat that's either before or not too far after 1963.

Can anyone give me their impressions of these horns?

[Hurling Frootmig]

If you are looking for a 400 sound for a better price than the 400 I would recommend that you check out the model 141 Aristocrat in alto or model 157 Aristocrat in tenor. They have the big bell of the 400 and appear to be nearly identical to the post top hat and cane horns. Very nice horns at a very reasonable price.

[super20dan]

rodger -if you get a post 1963 crat you might as well get a bundy from the same vintage.there is no difference. or do what i did get a late model 400 (mine is 1976) i paid 225$ for mine and it plays lights out.

[spiderjames]

Question,
I have seen a couple of post TH&C 400s (s-5 type)with back mounted bell keys and underslung octave key. Is this an original combination or possibly a replacement neck? I was under the impression that post TH&C s-5 horns all had over the top octave keys, or did they just use whatever was available

[Hurling Frootmig]

The S-5 and S-25 are the post TH&C horns. Nice players. Back mounted bell keys, nickel keywork, no tone ring, and no underslung octave. The Super 400's that were made after Selmer bought Buescher are suppose to be very good as well. They have the underslung octave key, back mounted bell keys, and a tone ring. The 400's with the side mounted bell keys are not quite as good as the S-5/S-25 and would probably be considered either entry level pro horns or intermediate horns.

[DezzaG]

Well, my Buescher 400 alto is post-selmer 438 XXX(1966-68?) and out plays my Conn New Wonder early Tranny. The 400 is so EASY to play, nice bright sound and wonderful low end, ideal for lead alto in a Big band. It has underslung octave and left side bell keys and in MY experience is definately pro quality, one of the nicest altos I have played! I agree with super20dan

[super20dan]

while they might not look "pro " ,they still play pro . my late one can hold its own with any alto i have played

[Hurling Frootmig]

Like I said they are fine horns just not as good as some of the stuff that came before them. They are by no means junk! Quite the contrary.

[spiderjames]

So an S-5 with an underslung octave key has a non original neck?

[Pinnman]

Does anyone have an answer to spiderjames question?

I have just acquired a 360K 400 tenor (1960) from another forum member; fast action, good sound. However, although it is a S25, it has the underslung octave key.

I have looked at what Pete Hales has to say which is that this series has a standard type octave mechanism .......... except this one doesn't. Is it original, did an earlier owner go out and buy it specially, was there an after-sales market in replacement necks, was it an extra cost option, was it a case of Buescher raiding the spare parts bin and glad to get rid of a surplus part?

All speculative questions: any ideas? :?:

Barry.

NB Incidentally, best bet on mpc so far is a Brilhart Ebolin.

[JfW]

my 400 tenor is definitely better than a student instrument.

the sound it produces is a little on the booming side and it dates to well after the Selmer aquisition, it's ser#: 404xxx

It looks like a student instrument, but it's action is a little better and it's tone is remarkably better.


It sounds great on an older Selmer Paris Classic Metal mpc with E facing

[retiredmilitary]

I have the buescher 400 with the back mounted bell keys, snap-in pads and screw in springs Serial# 384671, I was reading the post, and am confused, is this horn considered a student, mid- level, or pro horn for it's era. the bell isn't engraved just has Buescher 400 on the right side of the bell.

[Hurling Frootmig]

I have both and while the later horns with back mounted keys aren't quite the tanks in terms of build quality they are still really nice players. I feel that they are what today would be considered entry level pro.

[JfW]

I'd like to ammend the ser# I offered above. It should have read 440xxx or so

:wink: