Projection

[A_Gumbo_Variation]

Hey guys, Im a Tenor Saxophonist studying music at University and Im having issues with volume (not loud enough) and projection. I know that the most important thing about horn playing is how you play and not what you play so I have been working on breathing exercise, longtones etc. but I was wondering if you had any advice on inexpensive (<$500US) options for decreasing resistance as I feel like alot of my push isnt going into the sound.

I am using a:
Yamaha TS-100 (recently repadded but still with original resonators)
Otto Link 6* Hard rubber
Vandoren *3 reeds

Obvious thing to me would be to go up a size on the Link(?) and maybe to metal(?), are there other things that would help (reeds, metal ressies maybe?). Any suggestions would be great

I am planning on buying a new horn at the end of this year but cant afford one just yet. I need something to get me through next semester as its having a large affect on my grades.

I have read alot of the threads in the mouthpeice section and resonator section and they have been really useful but quite specific and I think projection is a big issue with many players so I hope other people can benefit from this thread.

Cheers

[Saxplayer1]

If you're playing contemporary styles or jazz, try the Jody Jazz DV Mouthpiece. Effortless, rich & powerful. I play a 7* w/the .108 opening. It's the most amazing powerful piece I've played in 30 years. www.jodyjazz.com for more info.

[Roger Aldridge]

There might be some fairly simple ways to get more projection from your existing set up.

1.) If you're not already doing so, take more of the mouthpiece into your mouth. Look at your mouthpiece (with the reed and lig on) from the side and see the point where the reed separates from the mouthpiece's facing curve. That is the ideal place to put your lower lip. If you do this, I suspect that you'll be amazed at how much your sound opens up. Frankly, I'm amazed at how many players take in a fairly small amount of the mouthpiece. This, in effect, chokes their sound. They then try to compensate by using even more open mouthpieces and/or stiffer reeds.

2.) In addition to #1, your reed and mouthpiece can work together better if you place the front edge of your ligature immediately behind the edge of the mouthpiece window. Put your lig on the mouthpiece without the reed to see the location of the lig. This spot is also normally just behind the U-shaped cut of the reed. I've experimented quite a bit with my ligs in different locations on the mouthpiece. This spot (recommended by Ralph Morgan) gives me the best results. It can also help to improve your level of projection.

3.) Approach your breath support in a way that's similar to the martial arts. Your breath needs to be pushed up from the lower belly rather than "blowing" out of the lungs. When you play, feel like the air is coming up from the Earth as a powerful energy and going through your body and into the horn. What we're looking for is a feeling of strength in your breath support. See what I'm trying to say? When I stand up to play a solo I have a feeling that my sound is coming up through my body and going out to fill every inch of the room. I'll even look at wall at the end of the room and visualize my sound going through it. It's similar to the mental attitude that one has in breaking boards in the martial arts.

Please try these suggestions and let us know if they make a difference or not. Remember, at least 85% of our sound comes from within us as players. If my suggestions don't help, then I have a couple of equipment suggestions that might work for you. But, let's start with things that you can do as a player.

Good luck!

PS.... I'd also suggest that it's not a matter of simply playing louder. If you want to peel the paint off the wall you can get a high baffle piece with a small chamber. But, it seems to me in reading your message that you're also concerned about the quality of your sound. Therefore, the idea is to have a really beautiful sound -- rich, darkish, vibrant, "ringing" -- that also has plenty of projection. Am I right about that?

Roger

[SactoPete]

Roger is absolutely correct, of course. His post might as well be printed out and put up on the wall in my practice room.

That being said, if you want to experiment a bit, you could try building a small baffle for your link out of poster putty or dental wax and see if that helps things pop a bit.

But if you like the sound and feel of your setup as-is, don't mess with it too much.

And FWIW I don't subscribe to the idea that metal pieces are any louder by nature. It seems metal pieces may have a tendency to be more commonly build with baffles for whatever reason, but there's no reason a HR mouthpiece like yours couldn't be the same internally. My loudest piece is a screaming Vandoren Jumbo Java T95, and my best cutting overall piece is a RPC .120, both hard rubber.

Pete

[Razzy]

YTS-100?? Try upgrading your horn and see if that makes a difference. Student line instruments are not known for their huge sounds. Try a Yamaha 62 tenor if you dig yamahas, and maybe see if you can get out to a shop and demo some other horns. They usually aren't that well setup, but they will give you some idea of what "professional" model horns play like.

If you want a bigger tenor sound, Roger's points are very valid, but it has a lot to do with matching the setup to the horn, too. I play a Yamaha 62 and find that only very open mouthpieces work well with it. I play an Ackerman resin 8* with Hemke 2.5 and this is the biggest sound I've been able to get out of this tenor. Put it on a good Mark VI and it screams.

Also, ditto on how LOUD the Jumbo Java T95 can be. I sold it because I couldn't deal with the baffle, it screams! That said I think it's a better idea to stick with something more conservative (rollover baffle, Link-like, medium chamber) and work on your breath support, embouchure, and relaxing everything so that you allow the tone to come out of the instrument rather than force it out.

[makemyday]

EXCELLENT post by Roger.

You can always ask someone with a Selmer or something similar if you may blow it using your own mpc, to see if there's much difference. Also compare the owner's sound to yours. Other than that, don't go buying mpcs or reeds like crazy. You MAY want to try to use jazz-reeds like Rico Royals instead of the blue (? = classical cut) Vandoren reeds you are using now.

[brassnaked]

If you're playing contemporary styles or jazz, try the Jody Jazz DV Mouthpiece. Effortless, rich & powerful. I play a 7* w/the .108 opening. It's the most amazing powerful piece I've played in 30 years. www.jodyjazz.com (http://www.jodyjazz.com) for more info.

Ditto

[Roger Aldridge]

Vandoren Traditional reeds can sometimes be on the stuffy side. An easy way to make them more responsive and (yes!) have more projection is to get the ATG Reed Finishing System and make a subtle adjustment in the tip area as is described in the user guide. I've been using Legere regular cut tenor reeds for almost a year. According to Guy Legere, they are based on the measurements of Vandoren Traditional. I've gotten remarkable results with the ATG making a few lights passes in the tip. Much more projection and great resonse! Highly recommended.

[Al Stevens]

Sometimes "edgier" or "brighter" seems louder because people can hear it better, sound systems can reproduce the frequencies better, and so on.

I use an Otto Link 7* rubber and an Otto Link 7* metal both on a Mark VI. The metal piece seems louder to me for the same effort. It is certainly brighter. It is well within your budget. I think they list for about $120. There is usually one or two on ebay.

Many dealers will let you try out mouthpieces.

[SactoPete]

Yes, to follow up and reinforce Razzy and Al's posts, perceptually louder is often at the sake of sound quality. I think that the JJ T97 sounds like cats fighting. But sometimes (like with a well-designed, balanced piece) you can find a sound you really like that isn't one-dimensional, and in fact encourages all of the good things Roger described. Al's recommendation of a Metal Link, perhaps a 7*, is not a bad one at all... it's about as standard a jazz piece as you can get, and lots of folks have good luck getting a good, full, projecting sound out of them. Just make sure you have one that isn't a mess; the quality control is notoriously erratic. Go to a music shop and try a bunch out....

[Tryptykon]

Lots of good thoughts suggestions, here .

My question to the original poster is : what are you studying ?

If it's the classical literature, obviously, the recommendations for pieces with
baffles, do not apply, to this situation.

It appears, that you might be studying classical saxophone; based on your
choice of reeds, but the Otto Link, I'm not sure of; although they would possibly
allow for a Link to be subbed for a Selmer C*or SA80 .

Roger's reed adjustment suggestion, is a good one.

The Vandorens can be good, out of the box, but there are certainly some stuffy
non-responsive one's to be had; usually too many !

The other thing that is very important is having a good facing on the mpc.

If it is a stock Link, it may play well, or you just may be used to it.
But, it might play much better, with the correct facing put on it.

Hopefully you'll fill in a few more details so others, can, better, help you.

[A_Gumbo_Variation]

wow... thanks for all the responces guys.

Im in agreement with Roger about sound and projection being 85% about what the player is doing. I have been putting alot of work into those things that were listed, especially the diaphragm blowing (Including an hour of longtones/day focusing entirely on stomach control) and mouth positioning. I have found that these have made a big improvement on my sound but I am finding that there is alot of resistance when I really start trying to pelt it out.

I pulled out my mouthpeice and had a look at my ligature position and have realised that i could do alot more experimentation with that than I have.

I have started a list of the recomended mouthpeices, mouthpeice types, and reed cuts etc and visited the links that you have posted and Ill check them all out, so thank you all for the advice!

Tryptykon asked for more details - Im a Jazz student whos trying to play as many styles as I can (including classical) as I beleive I can get something out of playing all styles. Im practicing about 5 hours a day at the moment (Im hoping to do between 7 and 8 next semester) and sound control and projection is my major focus in everything I do. Im a big fan of Wayne Shorter and the way he can play one note in like 10,000 different ways, and that one note says nore than 50 notes from alot of other players.

Thank you all again. All the posts so far have been very useful

[Roger Aldridge]

A final suggestion....

If you like the sound and feel of your Link but (as you indicated) want more projection and I'd think more "life" in your sound, I'd suggest that you add a Ralph Morgan 6L or 7L to your list of mouthpieces to try. The Morgan L model has a big, dark, fat sound that also is extremely resonant. Several of the guys in my big band sax section have switched to a Morgan L and they absolutely rave about it. I highly recommend it (especially, a 6L) as a mouthpiece that can work for you in both classical and jazz worlds.

Good luck.

[whaler]

Contrary to the other opinions, I think going smaller tip opening, not larger, will give you more projection. Huge tip openings (.130,Geez) generally means the mouthpieces have huge baffles. You'll project allright, but lose any kind of warmth to your sound. A Link 6* is a good tip opening. Try different reeds before you give up on it.

[Razzy]

Huge tip openings (.130,Geez) generally means the mouthpieces have huge baffles.

This is simply not true. It IS true however that high baffle mouthpieces tend to be preferred in the larger tip openings by most players who use them. It's not too hard to find a Link 8*, as I suggested (the tip on these is .115), and the sound is a lot darker than the comparable mouthpiece in a smaller tip opening. Obviously this sort of setup isn't for every player, or even the majority of players, who seem to hover around the 6* - 7* range, but it's worth a shot anyway. I still think the horn is your biggest barrier, having experience with lower range Yamaha tenors, and even high end ones, which aren't great for their projecting capabilities. Obviously this solution isn't less than 500 dollars, but them's the breaks, kid!

[shmuelyosef]

A final suggestion....

If you like the sound and feel of your Link but (as you indicated) want more projection and I'd think more "life" in your sound, I'd suggest that you add a Ralph Morgan 6L or 7L to your list of mouthpieces to try. The Morgan L model has a big, dark, fat sound that also is extremely resonant. Several of the guys in my big band sax section have switched to a Morgan L and they absolutely rave about it. I highly recommend it (especially, a 6L) as a mouthpiece that can work for you in both classical and jazz worlds.

Good luck.
I, too, highly recommend Morgan pieces and have both an 8L and an 8EL in my 'loaner collection' for students.

One important thing to remember about Morgan pieces is that the tip openings differ by "1" from the Link numbers...that is to say, a Link 7 will have the same nominal tip opening as a Morgan 8.