View Full Version : What MAKES money?
Hi, i'm entering my senior year in High School and plan on becoming a musician. After reading about the first half of the previous discusion about frustrations about salaries for being a musician, I would have to say that I got pretty depressed. Now I want to switch the discussion to be more optimistic in asking what are the things in a musical career that MAKE a lot of money and those that dont so that I have something to plan on to try and make the most money.
Thanks a lot.
Giles
07-07-2003, 08:47 AM
Being versatile. Being able to play many different styles. I mean REALLY be able to play different types of music. Blowing Coltrane licks over a Streisand tune at a wedding is not appropriate. Play the right stuff for the style.
Double. And with more than just woodwinds. Work on your keyboard or guitar skills. Be able to handle substantial parts on another instrument. Also, work on your harmony singing.
Be profesional. Be on time for the gig. This doesn't mean walking in at 10:25 for a 10:30 show. Dress properly for the gig. Don't drink to the point where it effects you AT ALL. Be ready to go when break is SUPPOSED to be over. Have reliable transportation. Have reeds ready to go if the one your using dies or gets broken. Carry a spare mouthpiece!! God forbid if you drop yours or it gets knocked out of your hand. Also, if you're serious about doing this for a living, be prepared to play when you are deathly ill.
Be a nice person. There are thousands of guys who can play the gig. You don't have to be friends with everybody in the band when the gig is over, but you have to be able to get along with everybody at least to the point where there is no conflict.
Network. Go to see music played and talk to the people playing it. Go to jam sessions. Sit in with people. But only when invited! Don't walk in and start setting up your horn without being asked.
Insure your equipment.
Hope that helps, although I'm sure I'm missing a lot.
AMASAX
07-10-2003, 03:01 AM
well, you're probably NOT gonna make big $$ by playing your horn...
Now, i know that sounds strange, as when you see something on TV or maybe a live concert that's great, one naturally thinks the performers are where the $$ are, but in reality, it ain't gonna work that way for a horn player.
If you're THE ROCK STAR, then maybe the $$ are there, but for everything else, a horn player's a sideman, and guess what, you're only as good as your last gig, plus there's just a finite upper limit on what a side chair's gonna get paid.
Most people in the music biz making $$ are on the other side of the curtain - producers, promo types, business types, etc, because there just isn't enough LONG TERM reliability in playing a horn, not to mention the lack of sophostication and interest on the part of the public.
Performing arts(of all kinds, dance, theater, music, etc.) are a quite different animal that just about any other occupation.
For example, if you're a computer jock, chances are you'd work for a company, and unless you mess up big, or the company goes outa business, the chances of you actually losing your job are quite small.
However, in the music biz, there's a hundred other guys knocking on the same door as you, and even tho you might sound/play better, that's not really the question being asked. What somebody wants is usually some combo of 'get the part played adequately', 'somebody i like/know/get along with', "who'd we use last time", etc., etc, etc. Since VERY LITTLE in the music biz is based on a continous job, you're really putting a lot at risk trying to be a freelancer.
That's why so many people that do perform as adults do it as a sideline, cuz it's nice to be able to put food on the table and pay the rent.
In music, per say, the only steady PERFORMING jobs I know of are the classical orchestra scene, which is impossible to get into(and on rough terms, $$-wise these days), and a little bit of stuff off on tangents(cruise ships, for example).
If you wanna do music, you might wanna take a look at the education biz(either pub school or college teaching), but to try to make it on a horn stands 0.000000001 % chance of it happening to YOU.
Now, before you jump off the cliff, be aware that, yes, SOMEBODY's gonna be playing on the late night shows, SOMEBODY's gonna be pumping out CDs, etc, and while it MAY AS WELL BE YOU, you've gotta go into this thinking realistically; otherwise, you're gonna be one more down & out musician when you're 35.
SO, hope for the best, prepare for the worst, see how it all turns out... :)
Giles
07-10-2003, 08:07 AM
In music, per say, the only steady PERFORMING jobs I know of are the classical orchestra scene, which is impossible to get into(and on rough terms, $$-wise these days), and a little bit of stuff off on tangents(cruise ships, for example).
In my experience, this is WAY off base. You want to make a good living playing your horn? Weddings. I'm sure there are many more people who make their full-time living playing weddings than there are in orchestras.
You have to decide what road do you want to take as a full-time musician. Do you want to roll the dice and try to get signed to a recording contract (small chance) and, hopefully, make money becasue it sells well (smaller chance)? Or, you could play covers and work clubs and/or weddings and private affairs, and make a decent living. I chose the latter. I played over 200 shows last year and it looks like I might hit 250 this year.
It doesn't happen overnight. You will make crap the first several years You're young. But it's not too early to start networking. If you think you can hack it, have an adult (teacher/parent/uncle, etc.) take you to an open mic or open jam somewhere and meet some people.
The best I can tell you is this: If you are chosing to go into music as a career, RUN AWAY NOW! If you feel that doing anything besides music will slowly eat you away and kill you and you can't even entertain the notion of doing anything else, even for a split second, then give it a try.
John Laughter
07-10-2003, 10:55 AM
LSax, there is money to be made with wedding bands, party bands and variety bands provided that you are in a good location. The more "commercial" the better. Since you are in high school I would suggest that you try to join a band as soon as possible to learn how to play by ear as well as reading music. You need club work as well. The more years of stage work the better.
Another avenue that you might want to consider is purchasing a midi workstation so that you, as a sax player, will know how to compose and use a workstation for a midi based band. Doubling on keys, backup vocal, etc. The more areas that you can cover as a sax player the better.
Keep in mind that any horn is a plus for a band but it is not vital. And with the economy being the way it has been for several years, a sax player might be the last item to add to a band so the more you can do as an individual both in performance and in attitude the better the employment opportunities.
Most musicians will work at many things to make it a full time career; teaching private lessons, working in the local music store, leading a church choir, directing a community band, playing clubs, wedding receptions, corp. parties and so on.
As a high school student, you might not thinking about marriage, raising a family, health insurance or retirement at this point in your life but it will become very real in years to come and that is where the life of a musician can fall short. You need to be a good business person in addition to being a good well rounded musician.
The life of a musician has always been a career of uncertainities but it can also be a rewarding career. You will travel places and perform in places that the average person will never see in their life. The people you meet, the parties, dancers having fun, late night gigs, concerts, long distance travel...all of it can be fun and full of good memories!
Bill Mecca
07-10-2003, 03:08 PM
Listen to Giles, he's is speaking from experience.
I recently found out I saw him years ago at an open mic when he was, what about 17? now he is playing with one of the top bands at the Jersey Shore.
I also remember reading an interview with George Thorogood about his sax player Hank Carter. George said (paraphrasing) "Hank is cool. I don't care if he played a rock, he would be in the band."
People are more likely to accept your playing if you are a team player and get along with everyone. It's very easy to turn away someone with an "attitude."
bari_sax_diva
07-11-2003, 01:35 AM
I'll just add a few tips to Giles' list:
Get business cards made and carry them everywhere. If your card is in someone's book, you're that much more likely to get the gig.
Consider yourself "on the job" from the moment you get out of your car until you return to it. If an audience member or party guest asks you a question between sets, take the time to talk and be friendly. Nothing is a bigger turn-off than rudeness on the part of someone who's being paid to be there, and the bandleader WILL hear about it.
Make it a personal policy never to speak ill of another musician. When it gets back to that person--and it always does--you will have lost a potential reference.
Never, EVER miss a gig or rehearsal without arranging for a competent sub or giving the leader plenty of advance notice. Nothing gets you crossed off someone's list faster than being unreliable.
After every gig, lend a hand with packing up and thank the bandleader for calling you. You don't have to suck up, but most leaders will call a decent player who's helpful *before* a virtuoso with an attitude problem.
Sub--even for rehearsals--as often as your schedule allows. It's the best networking opportunity ever invented.
Know the other local guys who play your instrument and get in touch from time to time. It gives them someone to call when they run into schedule conflicts.
That'll do for now. Good luck!
-Leanne
AMASAX
07-12-2003, 04:48 AM
ok, i'll bite - what's a *reasonable* amount of money someone makes on a regular basis doing the wedding/misc gig scene up in the northeast? I don't mean the highest pay that *one* guy just happens to make, i mean what's typical for someone who's a steady giggin' dude ?
giles is right on the $$ . excellent advise. it works.
Bootman
07-12-2003, 11:35 PM
Play more than one instrument and never say no to a gig was the advice I was given as a youngster. You will always make mor emoney as the sideman inthe long run than you do as the star. The advice still pays off now.
What about the commercial/pop/smooth jazz scene out there. Even thought it's not my favorite jazz style, could it be more profitable than strait jazz.
Bootman
07-14-2003, 02:09 AM
Most of the gigs you will get will require backing vocalists, instrumetnal only working is great but fairly infrequent. Straight Jazz, Smooth Jazz and Jazz in all it's forms is great to play but the reality is that to make a living you will need to play mostly Rock, Blues and Tour. There is Jazz work out there, it is great to do but it is more the exception than the norm to be gainfully employed in regualalry working Jazz ensemble.
You will need to be versatile, double flute and clarinet plus all saxes, read well and solo to make it in any of the working big bands. Even if you can do all of this then you still have to fight like crazy to get a place in any section because these places are hotly contested. It is the same in the bigger Blues and Soul bands too. You tend to get invited in, you never really bust your way in. Attitude goes a long way to getting the gig.
Giles
07-14-2003, 09:03 AM
How do you make a million dollars in Jazz?
Start with two million.
Tim Price
07-14-2003, 04:37 PM
Most of the gigs you will get will require backing vocalists, instrumetnal only working is great but fairly infrequent. Straight Jazz, Smooth Jazz and Jazz in all it's forms is great to play but the reality is that to make a living you will need to play mostly Rock, Blues and Tour. There is Jazz work out there, it is great to do but it is more the exception than the norm to be gainfully employed in regualalry working Jazz ensemble.
You will need to be versatile, double flute and clarinet plus all saxes, read well and solo to make it in any of the working big bands. Even if you can do all of this then you still have to fight like crazy to get a place in any section because these places are hotly contested. It is the same in the bigger Blues and Soul bands too. You tend to get invited in, you never really bust your way in. Attitude goes a long way to getting the gig.
Amen Boot-
I might add also, on this side of the pond :lol: ya gotta do what you do best.
In short, the economy is wacked this summer ( 2003).
I tend to say, check what you do-and invest in your strong points.
I love to play Rn'B as well as rock or jazz.I recently did a wedding in NyC right after a gig with Dr. John.
The wedding gigs changed drastically :roll: BIG TIME.
You need to know the right keys on pop tunes, where to thow a horn line and how to be TASTY behind a singer.Via the Sinatra bag or the Aretha bag. 8)
On wedding gigs, my motto is- YES.
If I'm doin' cocktails-and I can hear the guitarist or pianist is more rock based. That IS cool.I just tell them..pick whatever ya want and lets play.
9x out of 10...they pick tunes that are known and in good keys.On the motown stuff, sinse I grew up on that stuff, you just keep your ears open and play WITH the band.If I see the leader is more of a BIZ leader than a musician I'll play solos as IS via the record as close as I can remember.
I ALWAYS make verbal contact with guys like that, and say...LOOK...your paying ME...whatever YOU need just ASK. Once they know your there as an band member your ok. I always, if I'm playing in a section...on tenor... bring my soprano and flute & clarinet. A mistake can happen and a gig that MIGHT NOT be a jewish gig, could be. Especially if your a sub!!!
Many times I sub, and get the call on a Thursday for a Saturday. ( eg-a panic call- lol ) Due to a manager NOT knowing exactly what piece band is going where.I get there and half the band is just meeting.AND- another motto is , be prepaired.I keep a mini real book in my shoulder bag...with my flute and clary. As well as the lead sheets to the tunes via the service. EG-Bach, Handel etc. This way...IF....someone forgot something, I got their back. You make friends fast when someone realizes they forgot a jewish tune OR " Ode To Joy" for the service at church.
I also -have @8 to 10 Jewish tunes memorized medley style...and concert parts with ONLY chord changes.This way a rocker or motown guy will be comfy...and be able to get thru it in style.I like that stuff on clarinet anyhow-Its fun.
Sometimes...on cocktails...the band is right near the bar ( in Philly at least),,,and folks just want to drink and BS. Music IS NOT the thing at this point. SO, I play bossas on flute and swing tunes on clarinet-Low volume.
I keep biz cards ready, and a few demo( commercial) Cds for hand outs to band members that seem like they are in the same lane as me via these type of gigs.[color=red] EG> WORK!
Also - a clean tux,is an asset.On rock gigs at the shore OR in hotels in NyC...like corporate stuff, I stay basic black. Black pants shirt etc.
A leader will tell you what you need.
' Another thing- PARKING.Always ask! Or you'll be driving 45 minutes
in circles. I tell leaders, I'm an early guy...I get there early.And check the book ( IF they got one) and just make sure all is ok.In Philly many times stuff is on the 3ed or 4th floor of a hotel- in a banquet room.Ya got
what Claire Daly & I call..THE SCHLEP. Gettin' all your stuff there in both hands and back :lol: This takes time to.Keep it in mind.
Hope this helps-
Another small thing-If your dealing with a road gig via a major act- you better be able to play and read well.Just being a cool guy don't work if nobody knows you LOL. You need be able to READ rock horn lines and even add some.Plus- play stuff at sight in a section.THEN-memorize it ASAP. I always STUDY a band FAST when I get calls.Buy the Cds and listen to the stuff as recorded.
For jazz- knowing tunes without a REAL BOOK- is a great start.
And the right endings and intros and how to count the band in.And what tunes you want next-EG- MAKE A SET LIST!!!!
These small things..in any idiom...make a huge difference.
Tim Price
07-14-2003, 06:31 PM
One other thing of use-in ANY band.Learn how to play -ON THE SPOT-section kicks and lines.
My friend John Williams, the bari sax player with the Basie band for over 30 years...and I were just talking about this.
When John was with Ike and Tina Turner in _THE DAY_in the 60s...
the strw boss was the great Clifford Solamon. The sax player.Clifford set the line...and gave Williams the "nod" to jump in on it.In that era-ALL the horns were head charts with Ike and Tina.Ya had to HEAR as well as
read.When Williams played with Ray Charles and Clifford was the "straw"
you had to read and also get the HEAD kicks on lines when RAY told Clifford where he wanted em'. ( Interesting huh? )
Ditto-on the JUMP BANDS of today.The JumpJive and Wail type stuff.
It gotta FEEL GOOD and be simple...there's an art to that that ONLY experience brings.Just thougt I'd pass it along. Williams and I talk a lot and I thought this might be of interest.
BTW-Go hear the Basie band when they are in your city.Ok? They are the last of the real deals. ( please-)
Guys like John Williams and my man Kenny Hing are the un-crowned kings of the saxophone IMHO.In this era-etc.
Hey Tim,
Just curious (and obviously new to many terms)...
What do you mean by "section kicks"? Is this what I think of as "horn stabs"? The stuff played in intros and chorus on the recordings?
Tim Price
07-14-2003, 09:52 PM
Exactly Troy.You are right there 8)
Kicks,pops whatever term is used today LOL.
thanks!
Hey, is Clifford Solamon the same guy I heard on a Charles Brown album "All My Life"?
I loved that guys simple, bluesy lines...placed in just the right spot...with just the right feel. That's a lot harder to do than it sounds like. Very tasty, me thinks.
Tim Price
07-14-2003, 10:27 PM
thanks!
Hey, is Clifford Solamon the same guy I heard on a Charles Brown album "All My Life"?.
yes!!!!!!!!! WOW- that is half the conversation John Williams and I just had this morning.
I spelled Cliffords name wrong via my lack of sleep and rushing to get together to get out for some gigs-DUH :roll:
Clifford is very ill- and not well as we speak-pray for him he's a very nice man and GREAT saxist.An asset to OUR art form indeed!!!!!
I think that IS some classic stuff with Charles Brown.More people should be hip to it.John Williams is very tight with C.S as C.S was the "straw" on the Ike and Tina bands when Williams played Bari on them.Ike IS a touch nutty but a great musician & always was cool to me.Hes fun to play pool with & have a few beers.BUT- that WAS a vital thing in many bands-ON THE SPOT CHARTS.
Anyhow- Charles Brown is a gold mine musically IMHO.
Again, as I read a Tim Price post, I bow down to his wise words and experience. Do as the man says and does, and you'll be awwwright.
When things get ugly in the trenches, try & take it for what it its, and keep coming back for more. Funny, I've been trying to get away from the big toned R&B approach, extreme altissimo, "thing" that I did as a kid, but have found myself in need of the work the last few years...so, I get the calls for just that bag of late, and need it to underwrite the jazz gigs... Aw hell, at least the horn is in yer mouth! Best wishes to Clifford, and may the late, great Charles Brown get (more of) his due in the years to come, what a fabulous musician!
cheers all, DC
Tim Price
07-15-2003, 04:08 PM
I'll just add a few tips to Giles' list:
Consider yourself "on the job" from the moment you get out of your car until you return to it. If an audience member or party guest asks you a question between sets, take the time to talk and be friendly. Nothing is a bigger turn-off than rudeness on the part of someone who's being paid to be there, and the bandleader WILL hear about it.
After every gig, lend a hand with packing up and thank the bandleader for calling you. You don't have to suck up, but most leaders will call a decent player who's helpful *before* a virtuoso with an attitude problem.
-Leanne
YEA- There ya go Diva 8)
Thank you DC...I'm trying.Glad you understand the deal.
If a sax player does not know tunes like "Georgia", " Misty", "DannyBoy"
or even "Yakity Sax" etc Take5 , Honky Tonk , Night Train...and they are out gettin paying gigs...and they do NOT know thps tunes..then they are UNprepaired. Period.If you can't play MustangSally and those tunes ...LIKEWISE.Your NOT ready.
Folks forget....before Coltrane WAS Coltrane..he was a bar walker!!
The big brewHaHa about him being SOOOOOO outside etc in his last periods...just points to that chest pounding testifyin' tenor from his early days gone in a different route. Eg-Pharoah Sanders is an excellent R&B player. George Garzone played with Tom Jones in 1972 or so. Sometimes you can BE SO OUT YOUR IN- lol- :o :lol:
Theres NO excuse for not knowing basics...and musicianship.Years ago- you HAD TO know those kinda tunes or cats talked about you.
The blues should be EVERY sax players commonground!!
ok- LET ME OFF THIS SOAP BOX AND PUT THE COFFEE DOWN :lol:
btw dC- Know Ed Berger in Minneapolis- GREAT ALTO PLAYER.
Look for him and say HEY for me. Thanx again DC.
Tim, As you may know, Ed is in very poor health, emphazyma, (sp?) uses oxygen, and has had his chest cracked open a time or two (I believe... don't want to talk out of turn). I went over to his place about a year & 1/2 ago, picked up a hr Greatneck & a gold plated Lawton from him, he had buckets of 'pieces! Literally. Ed is a very nice man, and has even managed to play the occaisional gig, with his oxygen, & no smoking in the room. I think it's been a while since he's played out though. Have you heard him play tenor? Really, really nice. The guy has always swung hard, and the world's been a far better place with him around. We hope for the best. Good to read your thoughts, yeah, gotta blow R&B, it is a part of the whole crazy experience, and I still dig it. Gene Ammons was the ultimate honker IMHO! The only drag of that in Mpls is, the ridiculous volume which the locals here think they have to abuse, just miserable for we acoustic/conical amplifer/blowers... The up side here is, there's always been a good amount of work for lots of guys, in a fair sized city that's crawling with nice saxophonists, even if it ain't even close to jazz... Anyway, cheers and best wishes
Regarding playing section kicks, stabs, lines, riffs, etc., Tim sure hit on something important! This is essential for blues, R&B, funk, "soul jazz," and especially jump blues. I love playing those riffs and am always searching for new ones. Sometimes it's tricky because it has to mesh with what the rhythm section and other instruments are playing. But once you find a line that works, it can be played over a chorus or on alternating choruses. In general, keep it simple ("less is more"). Syncopation is the key....place some of the kicks firmly on the upbeat. You gotta get a "feel" for it.
It's amazing how much a few simple kicks and riffs can add to the sound of a band.....the other musicians will greatly appreciate it if you do a good job with this. Other horn players who know what's happening will also appreciate your ability to play lines with them.
Tim Price
07-15-2003, 09:08 PM
Tim, As you may know, Ed is in very poor health, emphazyma, (sp Ed is a very nice man, and has even managed to play the occaisional gig, with his oxygen, & no smoking in the room. I think it's been a while since he's played out though. Have you heard him play tenor? Really, really nice.
Ed and I used to play the "Artists Quarter "together 8)
Once me and Ed and Lew Tabackin.It was so good- we had them lock the doors and we played till 7 AM. IT was amazing FUN.
Ed plays alto like Gene Quill- or Ball'. Hes my buddy and a long time hero.I did the liner notes on his CD :lol: One of the best of the best.
He really is a jazz survivor. If you see him hug him for me ok.
Once I hadda ask Ed what all those stuffed anilals were on the walls in his apt. he responed " Thats the Audience man.."hahahaha :lol: :lol:
One of a kind and one of my fav. people-I'm glad your aware of Ed.
Life would be a drag without a saxophone -and the cast of characters.
Kenfen
07-16-2003, 02:46 AM
You've got sage advice from top pros above, so I'd not try and add to that, but just as an aside, you may want to consider going into a military band and give it a try while having the comforting thought that you'll get paid and fed and clothed and sheltered and given nice new horns to play and plenty of reeds and go on little trips and play and have time during the working day to practice and do nothing but music and work on your doubles while getting paid and and and..... :lol: Ok, I get carried away, but you see my point.
From where I'm at, it's a great life. Plus, I'm working on the "outside" too.
My little life experience sez never stop practicing, never stop loving music and never give up. Find a niche and enjoy the ride. If you're in it for the money you may be disapointed, I think it's better to be in it cause you love it, eh?
Kenfen
Navy Musician
Tim Price
07-16-2003, 02:52 AM
I think it's better to be in it cause you love it, eh?
Kenfen
Navy Musician
WITHOUT QUESTION Ken....
You gotta love it.
saxboy
07-16-2003, 08:54 AM
Be appropriate to the gig/situation.
Make the band a better band because you are there.
If you make people look good, they will always want you on the gig.
SAXBOY
www.gregvail.com
Hey, is Clifford Solomon the same guy I heard on a Charles Brown album "All My Life"?.
yes!!!!!!!!!
Thanks. I was away from this post for too long. Now I have the nifty "notify me" thing on.
This is cool. I _knew_ that guy had been around...just by his sound. Those simple lines, played just right, is what I aspire to as a late-starter on the horn. Had no idea he did so much (there's my ignorance showing again).
I love that he plays a lot in the low range of the tenor. I mean, altissimo is impressive...to a point, but the low-notes-done-right really move me.
MitchP
04-20-2004, 07:11 PM
As far as the music biz and money are concerned, it's in publishing where the money is. Just ask Paul McCartney about Michael Jackson owning the Apple records library.
Jackson asked Paul when he was up and coming about music business advice and Paul told him it was in publising/rights, he regrets that advice.
As far as a player, Tim Price has great advice.
Myself, I also teach in a variety of ways (not a band director) and places. The wedding band scene here in Chicago is tied to the economy so gigs are down now for everyone I talk to. Hopefully when Bush is done doing whatever he's doing to the economy there will be something left for us, maybe some table scraps. Yes another topic.
sessionsax
04-21-2004, 03:16 PM
One thing that I don't see mentioned is to move to a city that has a music scene.
I used to live in Southern BF Alabama and it was always difficult to keep a gig much less make any descent money at it.
The first big step I did was to get an apartment in Biloxi and make the bills doing the Casino thing. This was a great testing ground that helped me learn to adapt to many different styles of music and gave me the patience to deal with crazy situations.
The next thing that I did was move to "Music City" Nashville. I could have moved to LA or NY, but chose Nashville because of the ability to make descent cash and stay busy. The town has it all, the bar scene, a growing jazz scene, rich folks with tons of wedding and parties and the recording scene. If you are a good player, you can find a niche out here and do nicely.
If you are a jazz god, consider NY. LA is not the recording mecca that it used to be, so session work is scarce and the A list keeps it pretty wrapped up. I have heard this story from so many sessions players that have moved from LA to Nashville.
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